131 replies to this topic

[kalbear]

They were being sarcastic. Barristan - even at this age - is one of the most formidable fighters in the world. He's still strong, he's clever, and he's willing  to do what needs to be done in order to win and not worry about things like fighting fair or honorably or whatever. In another place he'd be like Bronn.

[thetitansbastard]

Lyanna Stark, on 08 March 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

Mance glamoured as Rattleshirt gives Jon a run for his money in ADWD if I remember correctly.

Unfortunately don't have the book, but as I recall it was much more than that.  Manse was absolutely unbeatable to hear Jon tell it.

And Bronn would mop the floor with Barristan right now btw

[corbon]

Fire Eater, on 09 March 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

I don't think Barristan is no substance, he managed to kill a man armed who was armed with a sword by using a quarterstaff, and defeated several men armed with swords by using a knife. Apart from martial ability, he is also honorable, he also stands in last vigil for a Ser Hugh of the Vale who was killed in a tourney just because he had no one else to hold vigil for him.

Sorry, the rolling eyes were a giveway to sarcasm aimed at a previous poster's insistance that unless he'd witnessed someone doing amazing things they couldn't be very good.

I have nothing but respect for Ser Barristan's martial abilities.

thetitansbastard, on 09 March 2012 - 02:42 AM, said:

And Bronn would mop the floor with Barristan right now btw

Bronn gets enormous wraps from readers because he is cool, and successful, but there is no indication that he is really all that good. The only time we've seen him fight one-on-one was against Ser Vardis Egan, who must have been reasonably competent to be in his position but wasn't exactly a noted swordsman of the realm.
I suppose you could also count that nobody, Ser Balman Byrch, he of the potbelly and reputation as a competent jouster in his youth. You can't count Ser Gregor. Bronn knows how to pick his fights.

Bronn is street-smart, obviously more than just competent with a sword and knows when to keep his head down and when to poke it up, and how to fight dirty.
But I don't see any evidence that Bronn would have much chance at all against any of the really top-notch swordsmen (like Barristan, Jaime when 2-handed, probably Syrio, etc).
He wasn't willing to take the risk of fighting Ser Gregor. In short, he knows he has limitations and is smart enough to stay within them.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

ĶӓḷƁҿӑȑ, on 09 March 2012 - 02:36 AM, said:

They were being sarcastic. Barristan - even at this age - is one of the most formidable fighters in the world. He's still strong, he's clever, and he's willing  to do what needs to be done in order to win and not worry about things like fighting fair or honorably or whatever. In another place he'd be like Bronn.

I dunno.  Barristan doesn't seem to be very clever at all and he is constrained by is honor.  He lets Robert be murdered. He won't break the truce against Yonki even though they have mereen under siege, which is an act of war.  He advises Dany to hire sell swords rather than buy unsullied.  He's no Bronn, that's for sure. And the fact that Bronn and Shagga can do for every knight is the king's guard doesn't speak well of the prowess of Westerosi knights.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Lyanna Stark, on 08 March 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

From this passage, we can only assume you don't think much of Jaime either, even though Ser Barristan and Ser Arthur Dayne obviously did. Which in turn mean you don't think much of Rhaegar (which was tied to the original discussion which has now got out of hand).

ĶӓḷƁҿӑȑ, on 08 March 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

Ah. So we're basing it off of Jon's viewpoint - and Jon isn't particularly special as a fighter. Of all the 'unreliable narrator' bits, this seems by far to be the worst of the lot. Jon's gone up against what, one good but not great fighter in Qhorim and had to cheat  to win that one - and did it with a great sword. He's trained, but there's nothing to indicate that he's particularly skilled. Certainly not compared to the tourney fighters and duelers elsewhere.

I can see where you're coming from, but ranking Mance up there with Syrio or Jaime or Barristan or Gregor? Just odd to me.

Well this was actually the point I was trying to make.  On one of the pages ranking the best swords in Westeros I saw several people ranking Jon Snow in the top 10.  

We see Jon fight 3 on 1 and he seems impressive enough.  But they're greenboys.  Mance doesn't just press Jon hard, he utterly destroys Jon.  The only recourse Jon has is to bowl right into Mance and risk everything to catch mance off balance.  Even then its not enough. That's really the only reason I referenced Mance.  

Like wise every time Jamie loses, Loras (he took to lightly, he says), Rob Stark (used a craven's trick), Brienne (he was weakened and in fetters) there's some excuse.  Now those might all be valid reasons, but the only people we ever see Jamie actually defeating are Robb's greenboy brigade, whom I think of as being about as good as Jon Snow.  How much of Jamie's prowess is real and how much is reputation, its hard to say.  Jamie thinks he can defeat the mountain. But Jamie also thinks he's a better lance than Loras.  What we learn from Oberyn is that the key to defeating the mountain is patience and discipline. Jamie is brash and reckless.  It seems Jamie's opinion of himself and consequently his evaluation of others is suspect.

I tend to see Rhaegar in the same light. A competent enough knight, but garnering more praise the he deserves because of his birth right. Though he's more introspective than Jamie and probably didn't think as highly of himself as other people did.

As the noble Barristan notes,

“A warrior without peer... those are fine words, Your Grace, but words win no battles.”
“Swords win battles,” Ser Jorah said bluntly. “And Prince Rhaegar knew how to use one.”
“He did, ser, but... I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory.” He glanced at Ser Jorah. “Or a lady’s favor knotted round an arm.”

And so it also is with Barristan.  He seems a to be a great sword and lance.  But is he the equal of Syrio? Or the Hound whom we see defend off the mountain during the Hand's Tourament.  While Gregor is trying to kill Sandor, Sandor seems merely to be containing the mountain.  


“Leave him be, “ and a steel-clad hand wrenched him away from the boy.
The Mountain pivoted in wordless fury, swinging his longsword in a killing arc with all his massive strength behind it, but the Hound caught the blow and turned it, and for what seemed an eternity the two brothers stood hammering at each other as a dazed Loras Tyrell was helped to safety. Thrice Ned saw Ser Gregor aim savage blows at the hound’s-head helmet, yet not once did Sandor send a cut at his brother’s unprotected face."

corbon, on 09 March 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

Sorry, the rolling eyes were a giveway to sarcasm aimed at a previous poster's insistance that unless he'd witnessed someone doing amazing things they couldn't be very good.

I have nothing but respect for Ser Barristan's martial abilities.



Bronn gets enormous wraps from readers because he is cool, and successful, but there is no indication that he is really all that good. The only time we've seen him fight one-on-one was against Ser Vardis Egan, who must have been reasonably competent to be in his position but wasn't exactly a noted swordsman of the realm.
I suppose you could also count that nobody, Ser Balman Byrch, he of the potbelly and reputation as a competent jouster in his youth. You can't count Ser Gregor. Bronn knows how to pick his fights.

Bronn is street-smart, obviously more than just competent with a sword and knows when to keep his head down and when to poke it up, and how to fight dirty.
But I don't see any evidence that Bronn would have much chance at all against any of the really top-notch swordsmen (like Barristan, Jaime when 2-handed, probably Syrio, etc).
He wasn't willing to take the risk of fighting Ser Gregor. In short, he knows he has limitations and is smart enough to stay within them.

I never said that someone whom we haven't seen fight can't possibly be good.  I just said that we can't assume them to be good.  You can't have it both ways. I can accept that we haven't seen Bronn do that much. But we haven't seen Barristan do much either.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 09 March 2012 - 01:34 PM.

[Independent George]

L(x3): I actually do agree with you regarding Rhaegar's questionable fighting ability, too. He's obviously a great jouster, and he got the best training available in the Kingdoms, but the Trident may well have been his first real battle, and Robert his first real opponent. We don't know enough to say for sure how good a fighter he was, and Jorah's quote sums it up nicely.

Mance is unquestionably one of the best - as he states in the text, the only way to be King Beyond the Wall is to defeat all challengers among the wildlings. Likewise, Jon Snow is unquestionably not even close to that level; he himself says that he's Quorin Halfhand could have killed him easily if he wanted to, and that he has train to become worthy of his sword. So no argument from me there.

With Jaime & Barristan, though, I think you're off-base. Now we're getting off-topic, but It almost seems to me that because of your skepticism of Jaime, you're automatically denigrating Barristan because of his high opinion of Jaime's abilities. Skepticism of Jaime is warranted to an extent, but Barristan (and Arthur Dayne by extension) is pretty well documented as being one the greatest ever, even if we only rarely get to witness it first-hand.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Independent George, on 09 March 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

L(x3): I actually do agree with you regarding Rhaegar's questionable fighting ability, too. He's obviously a great jouster, and he got the best training available in the Kingdoms, but the Trident may well have been his first real battle, and Robert his first real opponent. We don't know enough to say for sure how good a fighter he was, and Jorah's quote sums it up nicely.

Mance is unquestionably one of the best - as he states in the text, the only way to be King Beyond the Wall is to defeat all challengers among the wildlings. Likewise, Jon Snow is unquestionably not even close to that level; he himself says that he's Quorin Halfhand could have killed him easily if he wanted to, and that he has train to become worthy of his sword. So no argument from me there.

With Jaime & Barristan, though, I think you're off-base. Now we're getting off-topic, but It almost seems to me that because of your skepticism of Jaime, you're automatically denigrating Barristan because of his high opinion of Jaime's abilities. Skepticism of Jaime is warranted to an extent, but Barristan (and Arthur Dayne by extension) is pretty well documented as being one the greatest ever, even if we only rarely get to witness it first-hand.

No its actually the reverse. I think more of Jamie than Barristan.  The quote:

“A warrior without peer... those are fine words, Your Grace, but words win no battles.”

“Swords win battles,” Ser Jorah said bluntly. “And Prince Rhaegar knew how to use one.”

“He did, ser, but... I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory.” He glanced at Ser Jorah. “Or a lady’s favor knotted round an arm.”

Is actually from Barristan himself.  We learn from Barristan he got the nick name "The Bold" as a 10 year old boy who can barely hold a lance.  I just don't put any credence in second hand and third hand stories of battle prowess.  Any more than I put credence in Tormund siring half bear/half human children.  Now that doesn't mean they're not true.  I didn't put any credence in old Nan's stories either, but they seem to have been accurate.

To quote Sam:

"The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes
and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands
of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories
are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand
years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes,
Night’s King … we say that you’re the nine-hundred-and-ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the
Night’s Watch, but the oldest list I’ve found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders,
which suggests that it was written during—”

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 09 March 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[Bride of Winter]

I don't believe he did.

obviously there really isn't too much to base either side of the argument off of, but for me what does it is when Ned said something along the lines of Lyanna having a touch of wolf's blood that sent her to an early grave (or something along those lines. i don't remember the exact quote - sorry). obviously we know she was quite the feisty one, but he implied her "wolf" spirit was involved in part in her death. Her willingness to go on a whim and run of with Rhaegar fits that almost perfectly. Getting raped and being locked in a tower for a year? Not so much.

[MarianneSnow]

DragonSpawn, on 06 March 2012 - 05:40 AM, said:

Did the Mud-man pray to the old gods? And they sent Lyanna Stark to help? and from that all the world went to shit..? no wonder Howland Reed was helping Ned in the ToJ - that's a pretty hefty blood debt! What i have never understood is why Lyanna kept it secret from her family... I get that Rhaegar could take a third wife and Elia was done with having children and there is nothing really to sugest that the Dornish would have a problem with Rhaegar taking another wife anyway... so why would Aerys have a problem with it? Why was the secrecy needed at all? The only logical explanation i can come up with was that Rhaegar was planning to userp his father.. was this hinted in the books coz i can't remember?

I don't know if someone answered this already but it is hinted at.  Jamie remembers speaking with Rhaegar after he comes back from the TOJ and before he goes off to face Robert.  Rhaegar says something along the lines of, "When I return, I mean to call the small counsel." I think it has been theorized that if all went their way that Rhaegar would probably take control from his father.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

MarianneSnow, on 09 March 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

I don't know if someone answered this already but it is hinted at.  Jamie remembers speaking with Rhaegar after he comes back from the TOJ and before he goes off to face Robert.  Rhaegar says something along the lines of, "When I return, I mean to call the small counsel." I think it has been theorized that if all went their way that Rhaegar would probably take control from his father.

I think it was a great counsel actually.  Yeah there's a theory the central and northern high lords were forming a coalition to force Aerys to step down and put Rhaegar on the throne.  That Aerys in fact wasn't paranoid, the lords really were out to get him.  http://towerofthehan...ions/index.html

[Fire Eater]

@cordobon

Missed the rolling eyes, Sorry.

As to Rhaegar's martial ability, Robert was too wounded from his fight with Rhaegar to lead the army to King's Landing. I remember Ned recalling "their destriers circled and danced." Dany saw "he sank to his knees in the water." What if Rhaegar managed to knock Robert of his destrier, and then dismounted out of chivalry to fight him. That probably cost him his life.

[Rheagar Prime]

man ppl sure do hate the crown prince lol still come on from what we know of lyanna hell no she would let someone rape her. Rhaegar is like every man in this series flawed and made his mistakes he himself said so and sadly he paid for it with his life. No man a man that get props from people like barristan, ned, Jamies damn Lannister and jorah mormont is a rapist. He just had his flaws despite being so talented