131 replies to this topic

[Justice for Elia]

Gala, on 06 March 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

<p>

IIRC, Dornish and Martells are not that kind of people to be upset about cheating, really. They are hot-tempered. sometimes fierce, they have vendetta rule, but are just and not hypocritical. Be fair, they fuck anyone they want, married or not. Even Selmy's best friend KG Dornish prince had a paramour and that was acceptable because of their cultural thing. They are not actually in the position to judge Rhaegar's desire to have a paramour. If they do, it would seem hypocritical.

Elia was nice, smart and wonderful woman, I do not doubt, but everyone in Westeros knew that Rhaegar didn't love her, she probably loved him, I am sure she knew that he didn't love her (women know such things, plus she was a smart woman). It doesn't mean that what he did (took Lyanna) is fine, but it is quite understandable. I also think that obsession with prophecy and three heads is not the only reason he chose Lyanna.

Wiki says that Martells and Dorn were not happy with Rhaegar, but I didn't find any kind of evidence about that in the books. They know exactly who is to blame for Elia and children - Lannisters, particularly Lorch, Mountain and Tywin. Oberyn, being hot-tempered and vengeful, understands that, for example, Tyrion has nothing to do with this and I haven't seen any kind of despise towards Starks. We were not given any viewpoint of Martells' attitude to Rhaegar's behavior and to Starks, though.

I've always wondered: Rhaegar went to Summerhall very often, probably he also met that woman, who made a prophecy (don't remember her name), she is still alive (Arya met her).

Even if the Dornish are more sexually permissive than the rest of Westeros, brothers feel differently about their daughters and sisters than they do other women. Although I cannot recall any specific stories, the wiki indicates that Oberyn drove away the suitors which Lewyn arranged for Elia. It would be characteristic for brothers Doran and Oberyn, regardless of Dornish sexual norms, to resent Rhaegar for his infidelity to their sister.

Then again, you could be right, that from a Dornish perspective the whole affair was blown way out of proportion. Either way, the Martells decided to remain faithful to the Targaryens while plotting the demise of the Lannisters responsible for the murder of Elia and her children.

Lyanna Stark, on 06 March 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

Ser Arthur Dayne, The Sword of the Morning, was supposedly one of the best knights in the realm.

I think it's without a doubt that he was a very skilled combatant even at the worst of times. Beating Dayne would have been a major feat.






Not at all. Look at it logically.

People assume that Lyanna was "taken", but there is no proof of that apart from Robert's ramblings and people's prejudice that Lyanna is a woman, which means she has no agency and no willpower and needs to be moved by a man (and of course raped). Ned does not confirm this view at all: in fact he is very, very evasive when Robert brings it up. Which is unlike the straight speaking Ned we are used to.

What we know is: There is circumstancial evidence that she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree which would connect her to Rhaegar at the Tournament in more ways than being the Queen of Love and Beauty. Ned says she had the "wolf blood". She didn't seem to keen on Robert and Ned doesn't seem to hate Rhaegar at all, which makes no sense if he was the man behind raping and abducting his sister. Arya is said to be very much like Lyanna and Arya is brave, wilfull and does not care about conventions.

Would Arya accept being married off to some cheating brawler? My guess would be no. Why would Lyanna take it meekly if she was the same? Elia could not have any more children and her marriage to Rhaegar was one of convenience and Rhaegar was clearly seen as generally a good sort of man and not a crazy type of Targaryen.
Lyanna clearly had a soft spot for Rhaegar (she cried at his singing, and we can probably assume that she shared the general opinion that Rhaegar was good people, unlike some other Targaryens). It seems far more plausible that she wasn't abducted so much as agreed to go with Rhaegar to wherever, for reasons of her own. I believe she was gone roughly a year, which fits well with her getting pregnant, giving birth to Jon and dying in childbirth just after Ned arrived. It also explains why the Kingsguard was guarding the Tower of Joy: a prince of the realm resided within, i.e. Jon.

Very good points. I agree that Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship was consensual. Good insights about Ned's anxiety about the issue (R+L=J making him nervous?), as well as Lyanna and Arya as kindred spirits. I disagree, however, that the Targaryens were generally "bad." Aerys was insane, but the whole Targaryen line should not be dismissed because of one madman. Deposed, perhaps, but not dismissed altogether. One bad apple should not ruin the memory of a whole line of kings.

Edited by Justice for Elia, 07 March 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[corbon]

Lykos, on 06 March 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

She also seemed very grounded  and realistic, that´s why I have my doubts that Rhaegar would convince her with a prophesy.

Apart from the fact that this isn't a reasonable connection in a world where magic and prophesy are real and the ruling, dragon-riding clan have followed prophetic visions by a forebear for hundreds of years (therefore grounded and realistic people should accept prophecy as a realistic and important basis for actions), where do you actually get Lyanna being 'grounded' and 'realistic' from?
All we know of her really is that she accurately summed up Robert, had wild wolf blood, rode like she was 3/4 horse, fought (swordplay) with her brothers against her fathers will, was probably the KotLT (grounded? realistic?, perhaps romantic and idealistic!) and seems to have eloped with Rhaegar. Don't see anything grounded or realistic there?

[LadyMary]

Revan Baratheon, on 06 March 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

Exactly.Even if he hadnt raped her,he would still be a mental case,responsible for his dynasty's ruin and destruction.I dont know why people keep blaming poor Aerys for the sins of his prophecy-obsessed,bipolar son.

Poor Aerys? Really?  Aerys wasn't just a paranoid, he was sadistic and hurt and raped his own wife. I'm not defending what Rhaegar did with Lyanna but Aerys was a mass-murderer. Even if Brandon "deserved" to be executed for threatening Rhaegar under the laws of the realm as opposed to say, being banished to the Wall, his father and 200 other men didn't. After all, the Starks had a grievance even if Brandon went about it badly. I don't feel sorry for "poor" Aerys. If Rhaegar had gotten a chance to depos him sooner things might never have happened the way they did.

As for Rhaegar and Lyanna, as much as it bothers me as a modern woman with agency to think of it, in the fictitious medieval time of ASOIAF,  Lyanna didn't have the choice who she was going to marry. Her betrothal was a contract. Whether Lyanna ran away willingly or not with Rhaegar, it was still an abduction and an affront to the honor of Houses Stark and Baratheon.  There's no disputing that.

In view of the various points of view on Rhaegar it seems to suggest that there was no consensus on why Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.  Robert - the aggrieved fiance thinks it was for some nefarious purpose, but others such as Barristan and Kevan, think it was because (a.) he loved her or (b.) because he needed to have more heirs. They don't know about the prophesy that Rhaegar was obsessed with, as far as we know.  It doesn't justify Rhaegar's actions, but it makes his motives more complicated.

I do feel for Elia because we can't know what she felt about the whole matter. I think it's interesting however, that the Martells don't seem to have much problem with Rhaegar in retrospect despite what he did - although maybe they were angry at the time it was happening. They seem willing to support Rhaegar's brother or sister, or failing that, Rhaegar's son against the current Lannister-Tyrell dominated regime.

Edited by LadyMary, 06 March 2012 - 08:12 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lykos, on 06 March 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

@Lyanna Stark
Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar´s friend, though and Ser Barristan was of the KG.  But I don´t want to question Rhaegars prowess in the Tourney and I don´t think he needed it to impress Lyanna.

I doubt he needed to impress Lyanna. In fact, it's more likely they were somehow in cahoots if she was tKotLT and that was why he made her Queen of Love and Beauty.

Quote

I think they had a first get together when she ran away as the KoLT and Rhaegar probably wanted to pay her respect by naming her queen of L&B.  But how did he convince her to run off with him, she struck me as a woman with a keen sense of observation, she saw Robert for what he was pretty quickly.  She also seemed very grounded  and realistic, that´s why I have my doubts that Rhaegar would convince her with a prophesy.  Maybe she was lured away on some pretext by Oswell Whent, and then convinced Rhaegar of a different truth.  This seems more likely to me since Rhaegar already changed his mind regarding the prophesy.  The only trouble is I have no clue as to what that truth might be.

We can't assume that she was lured off. "Lured off" in itself indicates that she was tricked somehow, and that her disappearance was not voluntariy. If it wasn't, Ned has reason to be upset with Rhaegar, yet he is not. If Lyanna's personality was Arya-like, she also wouldn't take kindly to being "lured" at all. Lyanna being a woman makes people automatically think her weak and without agency, but there is nothing in the text that supports that. What we have in the text is only very little, but what is there actually supports the opposite.

It may even be that she fancied Rhaegar and saw a way out of a miserable wedding, while he in turn was taken in by Lyanna, and saw a way to get the third head of the dragon for the prophecy. These things are not contradictory, they complement eachother.

Revan Baratheon, on 06 March 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

alright your points are very convincing and 90% chance that you'll probably turn out to be right.I guess im just really against the R/L ship.

Is it weird that i really wanted her to end up with Robert? I just have a feeling it wouldve turned out for the best-for everyone(Robert dosent detoriate,lyanna lives and has kids and all,no one dies/gets raped)But yea,no asoiaf then either..

Btw ur avatar is just wow.U should post more in the general section lol.

Robert's personality was set when he was young. It's unlikely he would change who he was for Lyanna or anyone. If Lyanna died in childbirth, she could easily have done the same giving birth to Robert's child instead of Rhaegar's.

I used to post more in the General and ASOIAF sections when I joined, which was in 2001. I feel I've discussed most things already, which is why you most often find me in the Misc section these days.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 06 March 2012 - 09:33 AM.

[DragonSpawn]

LadyMary, on 06 March 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

As for Rhaegar and Lyanna, as much as it bothers me as a modern woman with agency to think of it, in the fictitious medieval time of ASOIAF,  Lyanna didn't have the choice who she was going to marry. Her betrothal was a contract. Whether Lyanna ran away willingly or not with Rhaegar, it was still an abduction and an affront to the honor of Houses Stark and Baratheon.  There's no disputing that.

This makes sense - hadn't thought about it like this. Thanks.

[The Storm Queen]

Revan Baratheon, on 06 March 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:

Well i think he raped her,but for some reason Rhaegar's bipolar disorder is quite appealing to the ladies in this forum,so they interpret it as "love"



I hate Rhaegar....viserys ftw!

I have to correct you, there are many women on this forum with little patience for Rhaegar´s  " I have to fulfill the prophecy (thank god Lyanna Stark is hot as Dorne)" schtick. In the "best" case (á la consensual eloping) I see him as immature spoilt child as well as  bad husband and father while all my pity lies with Elia who must have been an awesome woman according to Oberyn. In the worst case he is a rapist and I pity Elia and Lyanna even more.

[Anwar]

I will admit, the whole "Lyanna was the Secret Knight" thing Rhaegar was sent to investigate did seem bizarre to me. She'd only have been 13 years old at the time, IIRC. Are we to assumed a 13 year old girl, hell a 13 year old ANYONE could really defeat a bunch of Knights?

And also, would the High Septon have recognized Lyanna as a second wife to Rhaegar? The only Targaryens who performed Polygamy got away with it because it was back when they had dragons to enforce their will, without them would the Insitutions of the 7 Kingdoms really allow a polygamous marriage anymore? The Great Houses would look and think "What's the point of any of us having marriage alliances anymore if the guy can just randomly choose to pick a second wife?" which would throw the whole marriage institution out of whack.

Ned not thinking badly of Rhaegar? He never thinks badly of Aerys Targaryen either, but you can't tell me he doesn't hate the madman who murdered his family.

[The Storm Queen]

Gala, on 06 March 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

<p>

IIRC, Dornish and Martells are not that kind of people to be upset about cheating, really. They are hot-tempered. sometimes fierce, they have vendetta rule, but are just and not hypocritical. Be fair, they fuck anyone they want, married or not. Even Selmy's best friend KG Dornish prince had a paramour and that was acceptable because of their cultural thing. They are not actually in the position to judge Rhaegar's desire to have a paramour. If they do, it would seem hypocritical.

Elia was nice, smart and wonderful woman, I do not doubt, but everyone in Westeros knew that Rhaegar didn't love her, she probably loved him, I am sure she knew that he didn't love her (women know such things, plus she was a smart woman). It doesn't mean that what he did (took Lyanna) is fine, but it is quite understandable. I also think that obsession with prophecy and three heads is not the only reason he chose Lyanna.

Wiki says that Martells and Dorn were not happy with Rhaegar, but I didn't find any kind of evidence about that in the books. They know exactly who is to blame for Elia and children - Lannisters, particularly Lorch, Mountain and Tywin. Oberyn, being hot-tempered and vengeful, understands that, for example, Tyrion has nothing to do with this and I haven't seen any kind of despise towards Starks. We were not given any viewpoint of Martells' attitude to Rhaegar's behavior and to Starks, though.

I've always wondered: Rhaegar went to Summerhall very often, probably he also met that woman, who made a prophecy (don't remember her name), she is still alive (Arya met her).

People often forget that Dorne is not only famous for its sexual liberty but also for this stance on womens´ rights.They can inherit directly, have more power and also ask for more respect. Having a paramour is one thing* but openly throwing this into your wife´s face and prefering the paramour over her  (as in crowning her QoLaB) is a completly different thing. The first thing happens within your private life (and might hurt your SO as a person) while the second hurt Elia as a lady, a princess of Dorne and as a public figure. It undermines her status and makes her lose face in front of whole Westeros. Was this really neccesary to fulfill the prophecy? Even if Elia believed into the whole dragon thing and consented to Rhaegar´s affair she might not have been consenting to being humilated in front of all the nobles of Westeros. This action alone makes me believe that Rhaegar did not act wholly rationally.


* I think it is intriguing that we only have seen unmarried people like Oberyn openly displaying his paramour. Have we every heard of a married Dornish man/woman who in public showed off with his/her paramour?

[Gala]

Justice for Elia, on 06 March 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

Even if the Dornish are more sexually permissive than the rest of Westeros, brothers feel differently about their daughters and sisters than they do other women. Although I cannot recall any specific stories, the wiki indicates that Oberyn drove away the suitors which Lewyn arranged for Elia. It would be characteristic for brothers Doran and Oberyn, regardless of Dornish cultural norms of sex, to resent Rhaegar for his infidelity to their sister.

Then again, you could be right, that from a Dornish perspective the whole affair was blown way out of proportion. Either way, the Martells decided to remain faithful to the Targaryens while plotting the demise of the Lannisters responsible for the murder of Elia and her children.

I actually know how exactly a brother can feel about his brother-in-law cheating. I have brothers and a lot of cousins, who are very close to me, so I really do know, unfortunately. The problem is I didn't see any sign of Martells' anger about that, they hate Lannisters obviously, they say that both to themselves and others, they don't hide it actually (I would hate them too, truth be told and I would want revenge as well). They probably thought Rhaegar's 'game' was just an affair, nothing serious (though, we don't know exactly). I am really interested in what exactly happened at the tourney, how did Oberyn/Elia/others react on the situation. By the way, I really do pity Elia, she seem to be a nice and good woman, she should have marry a man, who would loved her and vice versa. Unfortunately, it wasn't her destiny.

Rhaegar is equivalent of (foolish) Paris (never understood that boy), I hope Lyanna is not exactly Elena of Troy (according to history, not Homer's, it was a set up, Elena's abduction was a plea to start long-desired war with Troy). I really hope it's not the case here.

[Anwar]

Paris was also a huge coward, though. Helen had to shame the loser into going back into the field against Menelaus, and he only survived Menelaus thanks to literal Deus ex Machina!

[Lyanna Stark]

Anwar, on 06 March 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

Ned not thinking badly of Rhaegar? He never thinks badly of Aerys Targaryen either, but you can't tell me he doesn't hate the madman who murdered his family.

We don't have Ned actually considering Aerys Targaryen in that context though. He has more than one opportunity to confirm Robert's opinion of Rhaegar, yet he does not. In fact, Ned is very evasive. Even the TV series caught this evasiveness concerning a. Lyanna's abduction, b. Rhaegar's conduct and c. Jon's parentage.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 06 March 2012 - 09:37 AM.

[corbon]

Anwar, on 06 March 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

I will admit, the whole "Lyanna was the Secret Knight" thing Rhaegar was sent to investigate did seem bizarre to me. She'd only have been 13 years old at the time, IIRC. Are we to assumed a 13 year old girl, hell a 13 year old ANYONE could really defeat a bunch of Knights?

A medieval 13 yr old is not the same as a modern 13 yr old. We are told by experts that Jousting is 3/4ths horsemanship and by several sources that Lyanna was a brilliant natural horsewoman. We saw a slight 16 yr old boy defeat a 30odd year old 8 foot monster, veteran knight of 15+ years. And though they were no mugs (having already won at least one challenge each too be one of the 5 champions), the three knights she defeated were no great names.

Anwar, on 06 March 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

And also, would the High Septon have recognized Lyanna as a second wife to Rhaegar? The only Targaryens who performed Polygamy got away with it because it was back when they had dragons to enforce their will, without them would the Insitutions of the 7 Kingdoms really allow a polygamous marriage anymore? The Great Houses would look and think "What's the point of any of us having marriage alliances anymore if the guy can just randomly choose to pick a second wife?" which would throw the whole marriage institution out of whack.

The High Septon doesn't have to. He only has to get involved in annulments. Any Septon would have done (as it did for Tyrion) or they could even have been married the Northern way, simply kneeling in front of a Heart Tree.

Apart from the fact that GRRM has said that there may have been more polygamous marriages, and many Targaryen marriage statuses are unknown so we can't accurately claim that polygamy was only practiced with the backup of dragons, the Faith are unlikely to press the issue to Rhaegar. That would involve admitting that they were afraid of dragons, and that therefore the dragons were more powerful than the Seven. It is more likely that they would simply continue with their original 'the Targaryens are special, favoured of the gods' line and say nothing. The faith is also weak, powerless and somewat corrupted at that time remember.

What is the problem with polygamy for the great houses? It just means more chances for  valuable marriage alliance with the royal family. That's a good thing for most of them.
Sure, the breaking of a betrothal is a bad thing. But that can be recompensed with lands, keeps, titles, other sinecures. And that itself is not related directly to polygamy.

Anwar, on 06 March 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

Ned not thinking badly of Rhaegar? He never thinks badly of Aerys Targaryen either, but you can't tell me he doesn't hate the madman who murdered his family.

He doesn't think of Aerys at all. But he does think of Rhaegar, in circumstances that would easily bring to mind thinking poorly of someone (Robert's bullshit and the whorehouse). So that's apples and oranges I'm afraid.

Edited by corbon, 06 March 2012 - 09:54 AM.

[LadyMary]

Gala, on 06 March 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

I actually know how exactly a brother can feel about his brother-in-law cheating. I have brothers and a lot of cousins, who are very close to me, so I really do know, unfortunately. The problem is I didn't see any sign of Martells' anger about that, they hate Lannisters obviously, they say that both to themselves and others, they don't hide it actually (I would hate them too, truth be told and I would want revenge as well). They probably thought Rhaegar's 'game' was just an affair, nothing serious (though, we don't know exactly). I am really interested in what exactly happened at the tourney, how did Oberyn/Elia/others react on the situation. By the way, I really do pity Elia, she seem to be a nice and good woman, she should have marry a man, who would loved her and vice versa. Unfortunately, it wasn't her destiny.

Like I said above, women had little choice in who they married and certainly some not only didn't love their husbands and weren't loved in return, but were uncompatible or even quite miserable... Cersei, Rhaella, Olenna, Lysa, Margaery (twice), etc., come to mind. Of course, the same is true of the men although they had access to sex with other women at least in a wink and a nod sort of way.  Lyanna broke the rules by running off with Rhaegar, assuming that's what really happened, but she was a rule-breaker from a young age and fought against injustice (maybe even the injustice of being forced to marry a man she didn't love who she knew who not be faithful).  

Quote

Rhaegar is equivalent of (foolish) Paris (never understood that boy), I hope Lyanna is not exactly Elena of Troy (according to history, not Homer's, it was a set up, Elena's abduction was a plea to start long-desired war with Troy). I really hope it's not the case here.

I think he was bipolar as his periods of melacholy and grandiosity (running off with Lord Stark's daughter; seeing himself and then his children as the fulfillment of a prophesy, etc.). I think he was obsessed with the prophesy so much that it caused him to change the course of his life from bookish and scholarly to become a warrior. It may end up that the prophesy was about one of his sons (assuming R+L=J) or it may the prophesy was about the sister he didn't know existed before he died. We'll have to wait and see. but I believe Rhaegar was so obsessed with the prophesy that he believe certain things had to come to pass, including having "three heads of the dragon". Knowing his wife was unable to bear another child, he would need to find another woman to bear him a child. The fact that he fell in love with Lyanna who just happened to be beautiful AND a descendant of the Kings of Winter must have seemed like fulfillment of the prophesy.

That being said, it occurred to me that Aerys may have known what Rhaegar planned for Lyanna and Rhaegar spun the plan to his father as a way of keeping the potentially rebellious Warden of the North in line (and maybe one reason why Aerys allowed 3 of his Kings guard to remain at the Tower of Joy - while the real reason was kept secret between those 3 and Rhaegar). If Aerys had been rational rather than batshit, he might have been able to use Lyanna as a hostage to force a settlement with Rickard Stark. Of course, Aerys was not rational so he immediately killed Rickard along with Brandon and the others and calling for Eddard and Robert's heads is what started the war. Aerys badly overplayed his hand and lost everything but Rhaegar bears some of the blame for that, whether he took Lyanna for purely personal reasons or because of the prophesy.

edit:

Quote

A medieval 13 yr old is not the same as a modern 13 yr old.

Yes, but wasn't Lyanna 15 at Harrenhal?

Edited by LadyMary, 06 March 2012 - 10:05 AM.

[Old Man Aegon]

We have Robert and Brandon who called it abduction and rape but they were men who loved her and were quick to anger. IMHO The fact that 3 KG among them the lord commander and the greatest knight in the realm remained with Lyanna at the tower of joy instead of protecting the (confirmed) heir, Viserys, shows that Lyanna's child would be the heir to the throne since it was the child of Rheagar. Not a bastard but a legitimate child.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

I believe Rhaegar attempted to imitate Bael the Bard's legend: Arrive at Winterfell alone with his instrument in disguise, play for Rickard Stark so well he grants him a single request for anything he so desires, Rhaegar asks for a blue rose, he gets it and Rickard wakes to find Lyanna and Rhaegar gone, with the blue rose resting on her pillow.

[Gala]

LadyMary, on 06 March 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

Like I said above, women had little choice in who they married and certainly some not only didn't love their husbands and weren't loved in return, but were uncompatible or even quite miserable... Cersei, Rhaella, Olenna, Lysa, Margaery (twice), etc., come to mind. Of course, the same is true of the men although they had access to sex with other women at least in a wink and a nod sort of way.  Lyanna broke the rules by running off with Rhaegar, assuming that's what really happened, but she was a rule-breaker from a young age and fought against injustice (maybe even the injustice of being forced to marry a man she didn't love who she knew who not be faithful).  



I think he was bipolar as his periods of melacholy and grandiosity (running off with Lord Stark's daughter; seeing himself and then his children as the fulfillment of a prophesy, etc.). I think he was obsessed with the prophesy so much that it caused him to change the course of his life from bookish and scholarly to become a warrior. It may end up that the prophesy was about one of his sons (assuming R+L=J) or it may the prophesy was about the sister he didn't know existed before he died. We'll have to wait and see. but I believe Rhaegar was so obsessed with the prophesy that he believe certain things had to come to pass, including having "three heads of the dragon". Knowing his wife was unable to bear another child, he would need to find another woman to bear him a child. The fact that he fell in love with Lyanna who just happened to be beautiful AND a descendant of the Kings of Winter must have seemed like fulfillment of the prophesy.

That being said, it occurred to me that Aerys may have known what Rhaegar planned for Lyanna and Rhaegar spun the plan to his father as a way of keeping the potentially rebellious Warden of the North in line (and maybe one reason why Aerys allowed 3 of his Kings guard to remain at the Tower of Joy - while the real reason was kept secret between those 3 and Rhaegar). If Aerys had been rational rather than batshit, he might have been able to use Lyanna as a hostage to force a settlement with Rickard Stark. Of course, Aerys was not rational so he immediately killed Rickard along with Brandon and the others and calling for Eddard and Robert's heads is what started the war. Aerys badly overplayed his hand and lost everything but Rhaegar bears some of the blame for that, whether he took Lyanna for purely personal reasons or because of the prophesy.

edit:


Yes, but wasn't Lyanna 15 at Harrenhal?

I do agree with everything you said and I understand that Westerosi girls and women are not in the position to decide their future. I've just said it is pity, because she seemed to be a good person, who didn't deserve a husband, who didn't love her (as we know he didn't).

Why do you think that prophecy was the only one thing that led him? It could be just a coincidence as you said: a true love (not just beautiful girl, but something more) and the fulfillment of his precious prophecy, like 2 in 1.

I actually doubt that Aerys knew where Lyanna was. It seems it was a huge secret for all.

I also thought that she was older than 13, may be 15, because I think I remember she 16, when she died.

Edited by Gala, 06 March 2012 - 12:28 PM.

[Anwar]

She would've been 13 at that Tournament if she was the secret Knight Rhaegar was sent to investigate.

[Silverin]

LadyMary, on 06 March 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

Yes, but wasn't Lyanna 15 at Harrenhal?

Gala, on 06 March 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

I also thought that she was older than 13, may be 15, because I think I remember she 16, when she died.

Jaime became KG at harrenhall at the age of 15, and killed Aerys at the sack of KL when he was 17.
Lyanna was 16 when she died, whih was probably month after the Sack of KL (ned first went to free Stormsend)
Accordnig to these lyanna was not older than 14 at harrenhall.


According to Wiki, Lyanna was born: 268AL and died 284AL, Jaime was born 266AL, which means he is two years older than Lyanna. He was 15 at Harrenhal, which makes Lyanna 13.
The killing of Aerys happened 283AL.

Anyway Lyanna was around 13-14 at Harrenhall, definietly not 15.

[Gala]

The Storm Queen, on 06 March 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

People often forget that Dorne is not only famous for its sexual liberty but also for this stance on womens´ rights.They can inherit directly, have more power and also ask for more respect. Having a paramour is one thing* but openly throwing this into your wife´s face and prefering the paramour over her  (as in crowning her QoLaB) is a completly different thing. The first thing happens within your private life (and might hurt your SO as a person) while the second hurt Elia as a lady, a princess of Dorne and as a public figure. It undermines her status and makes her lose face in front of whole Westeros. Was this really neccesary to fulfill the prophecy? Even if Elia believed into the whole dragon thing and consented to Rhaegar´s affair she might not have been consenting to being humilated in front of all the nobles of Westeros. This action alone makes me believe that Rhaegar did not act wholly rationally.


* I think it is intriguing that we only have seen unmarried people like Oberyn openly displaying his paramour. Have we every heard of a married Dornish man/woman who in public showed off with his/her paramour?

I didn't say he was rational. In fact this was what led me to the thought that he probably fall in love (or gone absolutely mad about prophecy, but I doubt that). He was described as dutiful, good, virtuous person by all (except Robert), who knew/saw him at least once, so his Harenhall actions do not fit to this description. Even Ned was doubtful that Rhaegar was a kind of person, who would visit brothel (IIRC). He submitted to his father's will and married a woman he didn't love, was sullen and (kind of) depressed all his life (at least that is what Selmy said), he was kind and nice to her, he was fond of her, until Harenhall happened: something definitely changed him. Passion? Madness? I don't know (at least until the last book). I prefer to think it was love (for someone love is a happiness, for another person it is a disaster). I actually pity all of them: Elia, Rhaegar, Lyanna, even Robert...

By the way, there is another explanation of his irrational decisions: may be everything that was told about him is not true and he was a madman or a spoiled selfish prince. Than his actions are more understandable - a madman does what he wants, as well as a spoiled selfish prince (person).

[Gala]

Silverin, on 06 March 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Jaime became KG at harrenhall at the age of 15, and killed Aerys at the sack of KL when he was 17.
Lyanna was 16 when she died, whih was probably month after the Sack of KL (ned first went to free Stormsend)
Accordnig to these lyanna was not older than 14 at harrenhall.


According to Wiki, Lyanna was born: 268AL and died 284AL, Jaime was born 266AL, which means he is two years older than Lyanna. He was 15 at Harrenhal, which makes Lyanna 13.
The killing of Aerys happened 283AL.

Anyway Lyanna was around 13-14 at Harrenhall, definietly not 15.

Thanks, I'm not very good with time-events. I thought all this happened in shorter period of time (may be 1 year or 1,5 year), so I did the math from her death (16).