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Jon Snow: Gary Stu or just annoying cliche?

Jon Snow

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#281 Keep Shelly in Athens

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 12:57 AM

View PostFaint, on 12 March 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

I look at it like this: Daenerys in ADwD would not elicit such a negative response if half her story in the book was spread out over AFfC, with that book coming out in 2002, followed by ADwD coming out in 2004, with the second half of her story.  Or, put simply, if the books were released in the same manner and in the same time intervals as the first three books. But I feel that way about the series in general. I'm pretty sure if somebody took AFfC and ADwD, combined the two and then split them again, followed by giving the result to somebody new to the series along with the other books, that person would find AFfC and ADwD as good, if not better, than ASoS and the other earlier books.

are you saying that it was a mistake to split Book 4/5 by location?
Essos feels like its running in place to wait for Westeros to be ready.
Loved Jon in this book because he grabbed the bull by the horns.

#282 Faint

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 01:09 AM

View PostKeep Shelly in Athens, on 12 March 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

are you saying that it was a mistake to split Book 4/5 by location?

Yes, I do. I dearly wish I could hack my Kindle to re-edit my own versions of AFfC and ADwD. I sort of outlined my ideas on that here.

#283 DornishKnight

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:08 AM

View PostFaint, on 12 March 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

Yes, I do. I dearly wish I could hack my Kindle to re-edit my own versions of AFfC and ADwD. I sort of outlined my ideas on that here.

Checked it out.  I think it's actually a good idea.

#284 Auror of Horror

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:41 AM

I'm a big fan of the melancholy relationship between Jon and Ygritte.  I can't wait to see them bangin it out cave-style on HBO...flashbacks of 'Rome' will surely be triggered.  I was hoping to find a forum called "Is Jon Snow alive or not?" but I saw this first, and I'm guessing we're not meant to know the answer to that yet anyway.  I am currently reading the Goodkind Sword of Truth series, and though it has some sort of weird addictive appeal, I don't connect to the characters like I do with ASOIAF...Jon being the main protagonist I'm attached to, and Tyrion being the dude I wish I had the brain to be (but I'm somewhat content at 5'11").  All I know for sure is that Jon really, REALLY ought to outlive Sansa, cause she's a drag.  Long live Ghost!

#285 Roose Bolton's Pet Leech

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 08:42 PM

I never got around to covering Jon Snow in ASOS:

Recall that Jon, having been picked by Qhorin, was forced by Qhorin to kill Qhorin, because god forbid Jon Snow actually show some agency on his own accord. Well, in ASOS we have Jon similarly being pushed along his storyline by other characters.

First off, there's Ygritte. Who obligingly bails him out in front of Mance. So far so good, except that she puts Our Hero into one of his patented dilemmas. To help the Watch, obey Qhorin's orders, and have sex with the hot Wilding chick, or to get his head sliced off and help no-one? It is, of course, no choice at all, and meanwhile Ygritte provides Jon with a prosthetic penis in much the same way as Sam and Edd constitute prosthetic brain and wit: she temporarily obscures Jon's mind-numbing blandness and ensures he isn't a virgin when he hooks up with Daenerys, because a virgin guy just isn't Man Enough to save the world. Then she dies, thereby solving the pesky problems of a potential pregnancy (a death that is fortunately anonymously-caused - we can't have Jon killing his own lover, can we?).

Then there's Stannis' contribution. Slynt and Thorne, post-graduate students of the Snidely Whiplash School of Moustache-Twirling Villainy, actually manage to put Jon in a genuine dilemma: to kill Mance or not to kill Mance? Honour clashes with orders, and there's no clear way out for Our Hero. But not to worry. Before Jon has the chance to resolve things, Stannis Baratheon conveniently turns up just at the right moment, and solves everything. Once again, we see the world of ASOIAF warping itself to suit Jon Snow, the defining characteristic of the Gary Stu trope.

But this is a mere entree of cliche, an appetizer for the main course, before Jon's passive, dull, bland nature comes to full flower. I refer of course to the Lord Commandership. The backstory is bad enough. Lord Commander Mormont takes leave of his senses. deciding to take all his other potential successors with him on a suicide mission, and to no-one's surprise gets them (and himself) killed. Then the two leading replacement candidates are oh-so-conveniently at such loggerheads they can't possibly put aside their rivalry for the good of the Watch, and are oh-so-conveniently stupid, they can't be bothered to check the veracity of Sam's story. But at least Sam is trying. Which is more than Jon is doing.

But let's run with this. You're the Night's Watch. You've lost your Lord Commander and most of the elite men, and there's a deadlocked election. Winter is coming on, and the Wall faces its greatest ever threat. What do you do? Well, if you want a compromise candidate, you pick someone non-controversial, someone who sort-of makes everyone happy. Someone old enough to act as a reasonable placeholder so everyone can try again in a couple of years (this is what happens in papal elections). You don't pick someone with desertion charges hanging over their head, someone who is the bastard brother of a wrecked dynasty, someone who will piss off the most powerful man in the realm before he actually does anything. You don't pick a teenager, who, if they're ultimately incompetent, will nevertheless be ruling the Watch for the next sixty years, without the back-up of a friendly Winterfell. You don't pick Jon Snow.

But who am I kidding. This is Jon Snow, and common sense doesn't apply.

Edited by Roose Bolton's Pet Leech, 04 April 2013 - 08:45 PM.


#286 Horza

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 08:54 PM

I was always bothered by the way Jon was let off for Ygritte's death -- why have the arrow identifiably not his? Why not leave it open and have him ponder it for the rest of his days? It seemed like a needless bit of exculpation when the question of love vs. duty is central to Jon's storyline.

#287 Jasta11

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 09:16 PM

Aye, he was annoying in books 1-3, but I'm much more fond of Lord Commander Jon Snow. He finally mans up and acts rather than react, and his handling of the Stannis situation shows he has deft fingers when he wants to use them. He's also not afraid to push even the vulnerable ones around (Gilly, Sam) if it's for their own good. Pre-LC Jon would probably have hidden the baby under his bed or something.

#288 The Wolves

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 09:56 PM

I like his character and find his story arc and the Wall so much better. I find the story in the South for the Iron Throne to be tedious and repetitive. I see the characters as alike in their scheming and murderous behaviors and since the majority of the series have characters whose characteristics define them as scheming, violent, cruel, selfish, murderous and other countless unattractively traits I prefer a good character like Jon. I get people not like the character but I would find Jon just as annoying or boring if he was portrayed as flawed as Tyrion or Jamie.

#289 E-Ro

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 10:12 PM

lol I remember lurking the forums before I made my account and reading this thread. I was just hit with a blast of nostalgia.

#290 seewhoiam1

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 10:58 PM

View PostLord Littlefinger, on 07 March 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

Would that Tyrion had taken the black to be Jon Snow's Hand. HEADS! SPIKES!  Pomegranate Stew!

I cannot love this enough :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

#291 JaTyAdo

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 04:04 PM

Oh for fuck's sake!!! Jon is not a Gary Stu.. I don't know what this Gary Stu means but if it is the concept of 'perfection' .. then I guess Ned would have fit this 'perfection' better... wouldn't include Davos since he was a smuggler... How could he be actually perfect when you're even the ones who said that he's always sulking and he was arrogant when he came to the Night's Watch? In fact, he's quite annoying.. He's as human as the others.. weren't you reading? him going loco over Ygritte's body and yes, this feeling of 'they hate me 'cause I am better than them'.. But I do think he's cliche.. just like what others said, beating up people then suddenly becoming their friends.. though Catelyn pointed out that Ned and Robb have this ability to make people loyal to them and Jon is pretty similar to those two, still  you beat them and they become your friends?!.. As for Longclaw, I think Mormont gave it to him because he see him as his son.. alright another of his clicheness of being loved by all the good characters..
And please, Jon is my favorite character but I also think he's cliche so my fellow Jon's fans, don't deny it when ASOIAF readers says he's cliche because he really is.. and you put this on him too supporting the idea of Jon as AAR and TPWWP... the idea sickens me especially when I already like Jon's development as a character from a sulking sullen emo boy to a capable leader.. and if it turns out he's actually one of those two considering that R+L=J has a 90% probable truth to it, I doubt that I would still like him..

#292 Winterfellian

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 04:38 PM

Haven't read the whole thread but I find it funny that the OP states at the beginning that a Gary Stu is someone who is essentially perfect then goes in detail to enumerate Jon's flaws, which he ought not to have since, you know, he's a Gary Stu:

- Jon's clearly a deeply perceptive character at the beginning. That part where he thinks to himself that Jaime Lannister is exactly how a king should look despite knowing well his reputation as kinslayer shows a truly deep understanding of character and not the character flaw of a boy who thinks he knows best.

- Jon's an ingrate for complaining about being chosen for the steward. Call me crazy, but being an ingrate looks dangerously close to a flaw.

- About the prosthetic wit, this is just confusing. So Jon is perfect but at the same time so witless that he has to borrow it from someone else? I would have thought that like a good Gary Stu he'd had the wit of Tyrion and Jaime combined.

#293 Sasha Steelsong

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 05:13 PM

View PostFaint, on 12 March 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

Yes, I do. I dearly wish I could hack my Kindle to re-edit my own versions of AFfC and ADwD. I sort of outlined my ideas on that here.
Though I hate hate hate that they reordered the Narnia chronicles so that they are chronological (i.e. The Magician's Nephew is now first instead of one of the later books), I'm desperately hoping that at least when the story is finished they will release a version of AFFC and ADWD that combines the two stories so that we can see things play out side by side (or allow kindles to have a 'reading list' like a play list, that would allow people to reorder the chapters).  I thank people like you who took the time to figure out the order but it is such a pain to try and follow it via a kindle.  May have to go old school paper books to do it easily if the publishers don't oblige.

#294 Blisscraft

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 05:25 PM

View PostE-Ro, on 04 April 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

lol I remember lurking the forums before I made my account and reading this thread. I was just hit with a blast of nostalgia.

Me, too!  :rofl:

#295 Pinkie Baelish

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 02:33 AM

I guess R + L = J is true after all, since Jon obviously takes after his father, the biggest Gary Stu in the entire series.

Edited by Pinkie Baelish, 13 April 2013 - 02:34 AM.


#296 lannistergold

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 02:39 AM

I'd gather from the thread title that considering Jon a good character isn't an option. Well, silly me then!



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