295 replies to this topic

[OnionAhaiReborn]

I absolutely love the reasoning on display here. Jon saves the Lord Commander from an ice zombie(!), and the unrealistic part is when the Lord Commander rewards him with a sword afterward.

And it's so strange that when Jon stops being a bully, people like him. Ridiculous!

How can they be grooming him for command when the LC is a democratically elected office?! Definitely this has nothing to do with the fact that fewer and fewer knights and lords are joining the NW and Jon was raised in Winterfell, trained by a master at arms, educated by a Maester, and guided by the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North since he was a child. And we can't possibly think for a second and realize that 'command' does not mean 'the highest command,' and the LC gets to choose commanders for lower offices like Shadow Tower or Eastwatch...

[Gurkhal]

Val the Wildling Princess, on 06 March 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

I suppose I'm one of the few people that enjoys the Wall and the story line around it. And about the topic, Jon isn't a Gary Stu or a boring cliche for me. I love Jon the way he is, I love that he is a good person with strong morals, he isnt flawless though, and I strongly disagree with the ones who think that everything has been easy for Jon so far.

I've liked it pretty much and I did find it more interesting than, for example, Bran's travels but it had a different charm than the exotic locations of Daenerys or the war and politics to the south. I think it was most interesting to get an inside look at the Wildlings. My personal thing is that I didn't really care all that much about what Jon did but what happened around him and the people he met, so in this regard his POV was kind of like Arya's POV to me.

[Ser Hippie]

Jon's grown on me (largely because his naive idealism finally had some real consequences....until he gets resurrected I suppose), but I have many of the same qualms as others in this topic. One thing I liked about ADWD was the idealists (Jon, Dany) finally had to deal with serious repercussions for their policies.

If R+L=J, I still hope he stays and/or dies at the Wall fighting the Others.

Edited by Ser Hippie, 06 March 2012 - 10:54 AM.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

@The Storm Queen Maege is Jeor's sister, not his daughter and I think it was her who sent the sword to Jeor to the Wall after Jorah went away. The sword belongs to the Old Bear and I think it's his call to give it to whoever he considers to be worthy of it. The Watch was Jeor's family at that moment and Jon saved his life, clearly in Jeor's eyes he earned that sword.

Edited by Val the Wildling Princess, 06 March 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[Buried Treasure]

I don't have time to respond with a full essay to everyone of your points so I'm going to limit myself to the part about Jon being groomed as LC

Roose Bolton, on 06 March 2012 - 04:11 AM, said:

Jon also angsts about being allocated to the Stewards. In a series where Arya and Sansa are dealing with psychopaths, and where Ned is getting his head cut off, Jon's whinge is that he hasn't got into his desired class. And even that turns out to be a silver lining, since Jon gets-everything-on-a-silver-platter Snow is being groomed for the Lord Commandership (which, of course, is supposed to be a democracy. Mormont could groom him all he likes, but it's the Watch's decision, not his. Except that Snow is now destined...).

1. The NW never was a democracy. Rank has a place at the Wall as it does everywhere in Westeros and we see that in many ways: Waymar Royce was an officer as soon as he got to the Wall, the Shieldhall was for knights, the long list of Starks and Stark bastards that have previously been LC. Even the use of the phrase 'even a bastard might rise high in the NW' implies there is a handicap to being a bastard, it's just not so pronounced at the Wall where there likelihood of being promoted by merit as well as birth

2. It is only with so the decline of the NW that the common men have gained influence and position. When it had 1000's of men a lowborn man could have risen to command on merit but he would have had stiff competition from highborn men with merit and proper education on command. The common men would also not have had much influence on the vote for LC as commanders of the castles get to cast bloc votes on behalf of their absent garrisons. In the election we saw Denys Mallister and Cottor Pyke deadlocked each other, and in any case their combined vote was probably smaller than the number of sworn brothers at Caste Black. But when the NW manned 15 or 20 their combined garrisons would have far outnumbered the men actually present for a choosing - so the next LC would have been chosen by the 15 or 20 commanders.

3. Jon isn't one of the common men, he's a high lord bastard and with the education and training to prove it. Even when the Watch teemed with competent men somebody with Jon's background had a chance of rising to high command. If he had joined as an adult rather than a boy it is possible he may have immediately been made a junior officer as Waymar Royce was. Jon & Royce were the only 2 young men with education in command that the Watch has recieved in years (excluding Sam as imcompetant at command) - and how many years ago did the last young knight before Royce join - 3? 5? If Mormont had not chosen to train the second-best educated boy the Watch had recieved in years as his squire he'd have had to have been blind.

4. If the Watch had been fully manned it would have taken decades for Jon to accrue the seniority needed to be considered for LC. It was severely undermanned when he joined it and the officer corps was only 20-40 strong, with many of those not suited for high command. GRRM begins the process of winowing away the competent ones (Benjen, Buckwell) early enough that it seems natural (the hand of authorial intent is there, but competently disguised) and so by late SoS there are few viable candidates, and reasons are given why they cannot win the majority of the votes. It would Stu-ish if after winning the vote because there were too few able commanders that problem suddenly disappeared but it didn't. In Dance his lack of good officers is one Jon's biggest headaches, he is able to appoint some able men to junior command positions (then suffers because he no longer has their support at Castle Black) but cannot replace all the officers he wants to.

[imany]

Is anyone arguing that Ned is also a Gary Stu? I think Jon has a serious case of WWND, and of the Stark children, was most influenced by Ned's moral compass. Jon's only had one real book as LC, Ned only lasted one book, too...

[Karimbus]

He's hardly flawless. AT first he's got his head a bit far up his own backside, and he sees himself as much better than everyone else. It's been a while since I read GoT but it was quite clear in the TV series. He later has problems with breaking his vows, almost leaving the Wall at one point and becoming a traitor. Then in aFfC he becomes rather distant.
I can kind of see your point, but he's not that bad. I'm surprised to see this much hate for Jon, I always thought he was one of the more popular characters. I guess for every character there are those who hate them.

[The Beard]

I strongly agree with pretty much everything Free Northman has said.  In a sea of exceedingly flawed characters, I find Jon very refreshing.  He's not perfect nor is his story perfectly written but I've thoroughly enjoyed it so far.

Maybe I'm too traditional compared to others but I do believe in men and women of honor, duty, and loyalty.  I've known many such people too.  I don't think they're exceedingly rare though most of them are just involved in day to day struggles and are not involved in heroic efforts to save mankind.

I wonder why these morally upright characters are less popular than their often morally depraved counterparts but then I'm reminded of a quote from the first Spiderman movie.

Quote

"But the one thing they love more than a hero is to see a hero fail, fall, die trying. In spite of everything you've done for them, eventually they will hate you."

I've always loved that quote simply because it is so tragically true.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

The Storm Queen, on 06 March 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

I´d agree with you concerning Longclaw if it was not for the little fact that Jeor Mormont has a worthy successor for his sword: His daughter Maege Mormont (or her daughters for had er that matter). They had this sword in their family for centuries, yet suddenly he decides to give it to a boy he has known for months? I can understand that he wants to gift Jon for saving his life (on the other hand, is this not Jon´s job?) but gifting him with an extremly valuable family heirlom?
By giving it to Maege it would stay in the family - she is not (officially) married. Plus she is a good warrior thus making her entiteled to own it.

You give up all claims to your birth family when you join the NW and the NW becomes your family. Long Claw belonged to Jeor Mormont and not the Mormont family. At least Jorah was decent enough to leave it behind when he fled Westeros. There is no precedent for giving a great sword to your sister.

Edited by Ororo727, 06 March 2012 - 12:00 PM.

[David Selig]

Ororo727, on 06 March 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

You give up all claims to your birth family when you join the NW and the NW becomes your family. Long Claw belonged to Jeor Mormont and not the Mormont family. At least Jorah was decent enough to leave it behind when he fled Westeros. There is no precedent for giving a great sword to your sister.

Visenya Targaryen wielded one of the most famous sword in Westeros history - Dark Sister. Besides, the Mormont women are warriors, so they can make good use of it.

And you can't have it both ways. If Jeor had really given up all links to his family, then he shouldn't have been given the sword in the first place.

Jorah was so desperate for money that he sold people as slaves but still kept the sword in the family even though he could've gotten a fortune for it, then Jeor gave it away just like that. Totally illogical and a blatant example of Jon's plot being different from the rest of the series. It's as if it's been transplanted from a much more cliched, traditional and not nearly as good fantasy novel.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Dark Sister was Visenya's sword that was passed down after HER death, and there is no history before that showing how she acquired Dark Sister, unless you have written a some fanfic piece to illustrate it.  Jeor gave Longclaw to Jorah when he decided to go to the wall, so who would have given Jeor the sword if not Maege? If it were so important to the Mormont "family", why didn't she keep it? You don't like Jon so you will refuse to see it as anything other than a cliche.

Edited by Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, 06 March 2012 - 11:13 PM.

[Ygrain]

David Selig, on 06 March 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

Visenya Targaryen wielded one of the most famous sword in Westeros history - Dark Sister. Besides, the Mormont women are warriors, so they can make good use of it.

And you can't have it both ways. If Jeor had really given up all links to his family, then he shouldn't have been given the sword in the first place.

Jorah was so desperate for money that he sold people as slaves but still kept the sword in the family even though he could've gotten a fortune for it, then Jeor gave it away just like that. Totally illogical and a blatant example of Jon's plot being different from the rest of the series. It's as if it's been transplanted from a much more cliched, traditional and not nearly as good fantasy novel.

Well, I got the impression that the sword is supposed to be passed down to Lord Mormont's MALE heir, for which Maege and her daughters sort of do not qualify.

The fact that Jorah chose to sell people instead of the sword tells a lot about his moral qualities, not about the quality of Jon's storyline.

Old Bear didn't give away the sword "just like that", he gave it to the one whom he perceived to be worthy as his successor and heir of sorts. His own bloodline ended with Jorah, the Nightwatch is his new family and allegiance; he seems to have a grudge against Maege - I can't see what's so illogical about his choice. - BTW, The Daynes didn't give Dawn to just anyone of the family, either: no-one is currently wielding it.

[Buried Treasure]

Jon getting a Valaryian steel sword was unexpected, but the gift was for Jon's lifetime, not forever. Jon isn't going to be bequething it to his own sons because he is sworn to the NW and won't be having any. I assume the sword will be sent back to Bear Island when Jon dies, perhaps Mormont assumed the same.

[Free Northman]

The Beard, on 06 March 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I strongly agree with pretty much everything Free Northman has said.  In a sea of exceedingly flawed characters, I find Jon very refreshing.  He's not perfect nor is his story perfectly written but I've thoroughly enjoyed it so far.

Maybe I'm too traditional compared to others but I do believe in men and women of honor, duty, and loyalty.  I've known many such people too.  I don't think they're exceedingly rare though most of them are just involved in day to day struggles and are not involved in heroic efforts to save mankind.

I wonder why these morally upright characters are less popular than their often morally depraved counterparts but then I'm reminded of a quote from the first Spiderman movie.

I've always loved that quote simply because it is so tragically true.

Well said.

My theory is that people hate honorable characters because they hold up a mirror that shows up the flaws in those not as pure of heart. And those who are shown up don't like it. They prefer to see these flaws depicted as "normal".

It's part of the degradation of society as the generations go by.

But that's just my opinion.

[WinterWarrior]

Why not let Jon Snow be just what he is? I appreciate the fact that there is at least one character who is what he seems, is good, and does not lead a devious life.

I like his "hero" character. I hope he ends up with Daenerys...wouldn't that be a love song of ice and fire? Danys dragons will kill the Others, the wildlings will settle in with the people south of the wall and there will be no more need for the wall or for the Night's Watch. And Jon will be free to live happily ever after......yup, I would like some light at the end of this dark tale....

[Maester Zoidberg]

Free Northman, on 06 March 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

It's part of the degradation of society as the generations go by.

But that's just my opinion.

Just like society has been degrading since at least Sokrates? What about the fact that our society is as nonviolent, equal and free as none before, even with all its deficiencies?

[Darth Pipes]

I like Jon and I think he's a good character.  Though I did have some problems with him...

1) His portrayel as Lord Commander in ADWD.  It blew up for him at the end but it felt like no matter what situation occurred, he was making all the right choices and was possessed with a wisdom he was too young to have.  He grew up as the son of Ned Stark so he learned a lot from his father but still.  Not to mention his tendancy to be judgmental with anyone he didn't like, which was a ton of people.

2) I also have a hard time believing that a 15-year-old bastard, with only a year's worth of experience on the Wall would have mustered so much support to be elected Lord Commander.  Though I don't see his being a bastard being a big deal to most of the members of the NW.

[Silverin]

Free Northman, on 06 March 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

Well said.

My theory is that people hate honorable characters because they hold up a mirror that shows up the flaws in those not as pure of heart. And those who are shown up don't like it. They prefer to see these flaws depicted as "normal".

It's part of the degradation of society as the generations go by.

But that's just my opinion.

Please read my post that was on the third page, but I quote it here once again the important parts:

Quote

I think some of you mistake the dislike for "a good character with few flaws", with a dislike for "a character who gets everything without doing much, or doesn't have to make difficult decisions because they are made for him."

I don't think many people has a problem with the fact that Jon is a good, honorable character. I don't, and I like characters like that. My favourite is Davos for example. And I like Brienne as well.
.........

Now lets take an another character for example. Brienne, who is honorable, and the most knightly even though she is not a knight, had to choose between the life of Pod, the knight and hers, and the mission to kill Jaime who she likes. That was a very hard decision, where both are wrong for some reason and while we don't know how exactly happened, I don't think she was suddenly saved, just to make sure she does not have to make that decision. But then we have when Jon was sent to kill Mace (whom he likes), or be executed as a turncloak, but before he could make the decision Stannis turns up and saves the day.

You constantly argue that those who have problem with Jon or his storyline, just simply don't like honorable and good characters. Which is a big and false assumption. I have problem with his big damn plot armor (and I dislike Dany's and tyrion's plot armor as well, despite the fact they are greyer). Onn the other hand, I like Davos, and Brienne, and Pod, and Septon Meribald, Tommen and Myrcella, and I could go on how many good and honorable characters I like.

Edited by Silverin, 06 March 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Maester Zoidberg, on 06 March 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Just like society has been degrading since at least Sokrates? What about the fact that our society is as nonviolent, equal and free as none before, even with all its deficiencies?

That depends on who's society you are looking at. There are plenty of societies that are just as violent and unequal in many parts of the world, it just depends on where you live.

[Maester Zoidberg]

Silverin, on 06 March 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

You constantly argue that those who have problem with Jon or his storyline, just simply don't like honorable and good characters. Which is a big and false assumption. I have problem with his big damn plot armor (and I dislike Dany's and tyrion's plot armor as well, despite the fact they are greyer). Onn the other hand, I like Davos, and Brienne, and Pod, and Septon Meribald, Tommen and Myrcella, and I could go on.

Well put. I loved Ned (even we could debate on how he was honourable and good), but I would have had a very bitter taste if he somehow got rescued at the last second.