135 replies to this topic

[Lord Damian]

There seems to be too much forshadowing about the Blackfyres, the Goldend company and its origins, Ser Barristan's past experiences engaging them and trying to tie in Illyrio and Varys plotline and it makes too much sense that Aegon is a Blackfyre pretender they have been planning for for years since the rebellion atleast. Since the first book, Illyrio and Varys have been together, we have wondered why, this is it, its name is "Aegon"

[Bolivar]

The hints that Aegon is a Blackfyre are overshadowed IMO by Kevan's epilogue with Varys in ADwD. Kevan says Rhaegar's son Aegon is dead and Varys says no, he's here in Westeros. Varys was speaking to a dying man, why would he lie?

Also, the odds are pretty slim that there was a Blackfyre lying around that just so happened to be the same age as Aegon.

I still think Aegon will die, though. I really think Quentyn's youthful optimisim being literally burnt to a crisp was foreshadowing to what will happen to the other hopeful suitor. Despite having dragon blood, Aegon's going to burn. He's too likeable to survive. He wants to be Rhaegar's heir, and he'll share Rhaegar's fate, a well-liked Prince who died tragically.

[KhalAllen]

Bolivar, on 14 March 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

The hints that Aegon is a Blackfyre are overshadowed IMO by Kevan's epilogue with Varys in ADwD. Kevan says Rhaegar's son Aegon is dead and Varys says no, he's here in Westeros. Varys was speaking to a dying man, why would he lie?

I disagree.  Didn't Varys have his "little birds" around or something?  Even if Aegon is truly a 'fake', Varys wouldn't want that information passed to his spies.

[Lord Damian]

I think, Varys and Illyrio know for sure who Aegon/Young Griff really is, the tattered Prince I suspect knows more than Illyrio might want him to know about him as well. This  and or Tyrion suspecting will be the confirmation for Dany and Ser Barristan to adjust their politcial maneuvering to.

[Uncat]

KhalAllen, on 14 March 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

I disagree.  Didn't Varys have his "little birds" around or something?  Even if Aegon is truly a 'fake', Varys wouldn't want that information passed to his spies.

Or you think it the otherway round: Varys makes sure, that some who is spying on him hears his little speach to pass it on with the same argument: Why would Varys lie to a dying man? It's a by-the-book-maneuvre to make sure, that your enimies get corrupted information.

ETA And by the way it is a by the book maneuvre, too, if you are an auor who loves to set his readers by having his characteres telling lies deriberatly or passing on wrong informations to someone, they want to decive. Us as readers, we love to fall for that.

Edited by Uncat, 15 March 2012 - 01:08 AM.

[lmanion]

If Aegon is a Blackfyre shouldn't he have the sword? Even if he is a Blackfyre and not a 'real' Targaryen Deamons father legitamised all his bastards on his deathbed and Daemon had Targ blood on both sides if I remember right, the fact that he was given Blackfyre - Aegon the Conquerers sword - was seen by many as a sign that his father intended Daemon not Daeron to be his heir. Also is Aegon/YG's sigil described anywhere I dont have my copy of aDWD atm.

My real question is with a fairly big deal being made about the Valyrian swords where are we going to see Blackfyre and also Dark Sister turn up? Does anyone know where they were last known to be?

I think if Aegon does turn out to be Raeghar's son that Varys could be the Mummers Dragon, In the Hedge Knight stories Egg shaves his head to hide his identity and Varys always has a shaved head, IIRC he travelled with a group of mummers and seems to be good at disguising himself, my money is on Varys being a Targ or Blackfyre and also not a eunich

[It Rhymes With Meek]

I don't think we know much about what happened to Blackfyre other than that it was with the pretenders/Golden Company for at least a while.  Do we know if Maelys the Monstrous had it when Selmy killed him in the War of the Ninepenny Kings?

As for Dark Sister, the last thing I'm aware of is that Brynden Rivers, aka Bloodraven, had it.  He then got thrown into the dungeon and later on went to the Night's Watch followed by merging with some roots in a cave... as far as if he had it with him that whole time or lost it before any of that happened, who knows?

[BoldAsYouPlease]

Uncat, on 15 March 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

Or you think it the otherway round: Varys makes sure, that some who is spying on him hears his little speach to pass it on with the same argument: Why would Varys lie to a dying man? It's a by-the-book-maneuvre to make sure, that your enimies get corrupted information.

ETA And by the way it is a by the book maneuvre, too, if you are an auor who loves to set his readers by having his characteres telling lies deriberatly or passing on wrong informations to someone, they want to decive. Us as readers, we love to fall for that.

I'm unable to suspend disbelief enough to buy that Varys, a wanted man hiding at the very site of the offense he's wanted for, would choose to murder two people at that site while knowing he was being spied on by an enemy or agent for an enemy. Seems completely suicidal.

I think Varys told Kevan the truth as he saw it. But nothing Varys said disallowed the possibility that Aegon is actually a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre and not the son of Rhaegar.

[BoldAsYouPlease]

Lord Damian, on 13 March 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

There seems to be too much forshadowing about the Blackfyres, the Goldend company and its origins, Ser Barristan's past experiences engaging them and trying to tie in Illyrio and Varys plotline and it makes too much sense that Aegon is a Blackfyre pretender they have been planning for for years since the rebellion atleast. Since the first book, Illyrio and Varys have been together, we have wondered why, this is it, its name is "Aegon"

I'm about 90% convinced Aegon will turn out to be a Blackfyre pretender. But still a doubt - why harbor Viserys and introduce him to Khal Drogo, with Daenerys's bride price being Drogo's help to regain the Iron Throne? They surely couldn't foresee that Viserys would get himself killed (Illyrio urged him to stay with him and not follow Drogo) or that Daenerys would then find a way to hatch out dragon eggs. What could this be but a straightforward plan to restore Aerys's son to the throne?

And if their first plan was to restore Viserys, would they so easily move on to a Blackfyre replacement? Or is their allegiance to all Targaryen descendants?

Edited by BoldAsYouPlease, 15 March 2012 - 04:26 PM.

[It Rhymes With Meek]

BoldAsYouPlease, on 15 March 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

I'm about 90% convinced Aegon will turn out to be a Blackfyre pretender. But still a doubt - why harbor Viserys and introduce him to Khal Drogo, with Daenerys's bride price being Drogo's help to regain the Iron Throne? They surely couldn't foresee that Viserys would get himself killed (Illyrio urged him to stay with him and not follow Drogo) or that Daenerys would then find a way to hatch out dragon eggs. What could this be but a straightforward plan to restore Aerys's son to the throne?

And if their first plan was to restore Viserys, would they so easily move on to a Blackfyre replacement? Or is their allegiance to all Targaryen descendants?

On the other hand, it seems like Aegon (or "Aegon") was in the plan for a long, long time-- Connington left the Golden Company a decade before ADwD to raise him in a manner fit for a king.  It might be that Viserys and Dany were mainly to give Aegon credibility (and an army of Dothraki screamers)-- if two no-doubt Dragons were with him, it would seem a lot more reasonable to Westeros that he might be the real deal.

[Lord Damian]

It Rhymes With Meek, on 15 March 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

On the other hand, it seems like Aegon (or "Aegon") was in the plan for a long, long time-- Connington left the Golden Company a decade before ADwD to raise him in a manner fit for a king.  It might be that Viserys and Dany were mainly to give Aegon credibility (and an army of Dothraki screamers)-- if two no-doubt Dragons were with him, it would seem a lot more reasonable to Westeros that he might be the real deal.

Not Quite, if you read into ADWD, it is evident that Illyrio was trying to get Dany and Viserys to a point where The powers that be in Kings landing were concentratiing on them. Also, They seem to be trying to kill them off by setting up a deal with the Dolthraki. Viserys thought that the he was wedding Dany to Drogo for an army to help him, Mormont later tells him before he gets his molten crown, that Drogo views Dany as a "Gift" which could be interpretted as a bribe (to get the Dothraki to leave Pentos alone, I suspect) Viserys got cheated and manipulated big time by Illryrio. Varys and Illyrio thought that Dany and Viserys would never be heard from again. A funny thing happened, Dany survived and hatched Dragons, and then, only then did she become of value to Varys and Illyrio, a bride for Aegon/Young Griff that would solidify his reign.

[Lord Damian]

Also, Aegon was raised to be a good king to his people. So, why would he want to bring an army of raping, pillaging and destroying Dothraki screamers to Westeros?  He would'nt. They were and are only interested in "controllable" Dothraki through Dany, if it is possible at all, aka, Dany, mother of Dragons.

Edited by Lord Damian, 16 March 2012 - 08:25 PM.

[David C. Hunter]

Lord Damian, on 07 March 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

i do not like any Targs except for the possibility that Jon is one. (he is a Stark at heart)
I think Aegon to be a Blackfyre decendent, not a true blood legit line. I personlly want the North to be free and under a Stark Monarch, therefore as long as there is an Iron Throne that claims the North, I am against them unless it is a Stark that mounts it. I tollerate Stannis because he is fighting the Boltons and Freys.

I 2nd this. In a perfect world the South would be ruled by Stannis and the North would be ruled by Jon....sigh...one could dream

[LuisDantas]

Blood is so over-rated.

Still, the Blackfyres are probably as genetically Targaryen as anyone can possibly be, for what it is worth.

I don't have strong feelings or opinions on the odds of Aegon being a true Targaryen, a secret Blackfyre, or even a random unconnected pawn of Illyrio and Varys.

But wouldn't it be ironic if he turned out to be a secret Targaryen after all?  A descendant of Aerion Targaryen, perhaps?

The way I picture Varys and Illyrio, they must be less than complete believers in the importance of high birth, being tread with such condescendence by the so-called Highborn.  I flat out doubt they care whether Aegon is Targaryen, Blackfyre or Kettleblack, as long as they can convince people to accept him as ruler.  For that matter, neither would Griff care about Aegon's ancestry as long as he was proven to be competent and wise.

[Fire Eater]

LuisDantas, on 17 March 2012 - 02:09 AM, said:

Blood is so over-rated.

Still, the Blackfyres are probably as genetically Targaryen as anyone can possibly be, for what it is worth.

I don't have strong feelings or opinions on the odds of Aegon being a true Targaryen, a secret Blackfyre, or even a random unconnected pawn of Illyrio and Varys.

But wouldn't it be ironic if he turned out to be a secret Targaryen after all?  A descendant of Aerion Targaryen, perhaps?

The way I picture Varys and Illyrio, they must be less than complete believers in the importance of high birth, being tread with such condescendence by the so-called Highborn.  I flat out doubt they care whether Aegon is Targaryen, Blackfyre or Kettleblack, as long as they can convince people to accept him as ruler.  For that matter, neither would Griff care about Aegon's ancestry as long as he was proven to be competent and wise.

I think Griff would care about Aegon's ancestry, he loved his silver prince, Rhaegar, and putting who thinks is Rhaegar's son on the throne is his personal act of atonement for failing at the Battle of the Bells.

[eggV]

Whoever Young Griff is, I think that varys/Illyrio are playing with this incertitudes as well: to get Targ supporters for Rhaeghar son and Blackfyre supporters for blackfyre pretendant.I've never sees YG or Connington speak about PARDONS for rebels, the swonrn swords , ESPECIALLY the golden company, seems to be attatched to them anyway.I fear that Connington IS NOTa good schemmer/polititian, just a knight who wants to make amends for his prince and save his honour...and too naive to see that maybe there is more to golden company support than he thinks(fed up with exile, wanting to go home, so suuporting any targ at hand).

[eggV]

Whoever Young Griff is, I think that varys/Illyrio are playing with this incertitudes as well: to get Targ supporters for Rhaeghar son and Blackfyre supporters for blackfyre pretendant.I've never sees YG or Connington speak about PARDONS for rebels, the swonrn swords , ESPECIALLY the golden company, seems to be attatched to them anyway.I fear that Connington IS NOTa good schemmer/polititian, just a knight who wants to make amends for his prince and save his honour...and too naive to see that maybe there is more to golden company support than he thinks(fed up with exile, wanting to go home, so suuporting any targ at hand).

[eggV]

Whoever Young Griff is, I think that varys/Illyrio are playing with this incertitudes as well: to get Targ supporters for Rhaeghar son and Blackfyre supporters for blackfyre pretendant.I've never sees YG or Connington speak about PARDONS for rebels, the swonrn swords , ESPECIALLY the golden company, seems to be attatched to them anyway.I fear that Connington IS NOTa good schemmer/polititian, just a knight who wants to make amends for his prince and save his honour...and too naive to see that maybe there is more to golden company support than he thinks(fed up with exile, wanting to go home, so suuporting any targ at hand).

[eggV]

Whoever Young Griff is, I think that varys/Illyrio are playing with this incertitudes as well: to get Targ supporters for Rhaeghar son and Blackfyre supporters for blackfyre pretendant.I've never sees YG or Connington speak about PARDONS for rebels, the swonrn swords , ESPECIALLY the golden company, seems to be attatched to them anyway.I fear that Connington IS NOTa good schemmer/polititian, just a knight who wants to make amends for his prince and save his honour...and too naive to see that maybe there is more to golden company support than he thinks(fed up with exile, wanting to go home, so suuporting any targ at hand).

[eggV]

Whoever Young Griff is, I think that varys/Illyrio are playing with this incertitudes as well: to get Targ supporters for Rhaeghar son and Blackfyre supporters for blackfyre pretendant.I've never sees YG or Connington speak about PARDONS for rebels, the swonrn swords , ESPECIALLY the golden company, seems to be attatched to them anyway.I fear that Connington IS NOTa good schemmer/polititian, just a knight who wants to make amends for his prince and save his honour...and too naive to see that maybe there is more to golden company support than he thinks(fed up with exile, wanting to go home, so suuporting any targ at hand).