135 replies to this topic

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

Of course Aegon is the Blackfyre "pretender".  Otherwise there's no point to all of the Blackfyre rebellion back story in the Dunk & Egg stories.

Why then would Team Blackfyre (Illyrio & Varys) help the real Targaryens Viserys & Dany obtain a Dothraki army?  Well, they could certainly help bleed Westeros & pave the way for the True King Aegon.  Plus they are maintaining the fiction that Aegon is a true Targaryen, which would presumably lead Viserys & Dany to bend the knee to him & help him.

Also why would Varys "lie" to Kevan?  Obviously because the little birds were listening.

[Turgid furgison]

chris999, on 07 March 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

I'm not so sure that people dislike him. He is interesting, and has a role to play, I just view him as a pawn, not a player.  

Even if by some miracle he wins the throne, he isnt going to keep it very long IMO.

I think that he is a creation of Varys, and that he will end up dead in order to serve Varys' grand scheme in some way..

varys smells like a targ too so I think aegon is his endgame winner. Varys has power in his blood evidnced by his castration. Only targs knew the red keeps secrets cos they killed anyone else that did, varys knows them all. He is willing to let dany think he is truly informing on her to robert. So if she finds varys she will kill him unless he has some very powerful evidence that he is her friend. Like silver hair maybe.

[Turgid furgison]

BoldAsYouPlease, on 15 March 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

I'm about 90% convinced Aegon will turn out to be a Blackfyre pretender. But still a doubt - why harbor Viserys and introduce him to Khal Drogo, with Daenerys's bride price being Drogo's help to regain the Iron Throne? They surely couldn't foresee that Viserys would get himself killed (Illyrio urged him to stay with him and not follow Drogo) or that Daenerys would then find a way to hatch out dragon eggs. What could this be but a straightforward plan to restore Aerys's son to the throne?

And if their first plan was to restore Viserys, would they so easily move on to a Blackfyre replacement? Or is their allegiance to all Targaryen descendants?

they never had faith in viserys but they wanted that army

[It Rhymes With Meek]

I think their plan was always to spring someone they were calling "Aegon", even when they were trying to set up Viserys with his army.  If you suppose that Varys & Illyrio don't care that "Aegon" wouldn't be known to be a Blackfyre descendant, just that he was one, then I think it could go like this:

• Use Daenarys to get an army ready to take back Westeros, for the moment understood to be used to get Viserys his throne.
  
• At the right time, spring "Aegon".
  
• "Aegon" has the better claim, and so Viserys and Daenarys would be expected to help him, bringing the Dothraki screamers along for the ride.
  
• The support of known Targs (Viserys and Daenarys) for "Aegon" make it seem much more likely to the people of Westeros that he really is Aegon and not just a pretender.
  
• As long as "Aegon" produces an heir, the throne still passes to the descendants of the Blackfyres instead of the other Targs.

Not much actually changes in this the instant Viserys dies, except that it would only be one known Targ (Dany) giving support to "Aegon" instead of two.

Edited by It Rhymes With Meek, 23 March 2012 - 11:48 AM.

[Blackfyre Bob]

I wonder if Barristan Selmy will be able to confirm that Aegon is not Rhaegar's son?  Also, how will Dany react to firstly thinking she has a nephew, then realizing that he is a fake??

[Lord Damian]

Blackfyre Bob, on 23 March 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

I wonder if Barristan Selmy will be able to confirm that Aegon is not Rhaegar's son?  Also, how will Dany react to firstly thinking she has a nephew, then realizing that he is a fake??

This is where I think the Tattered Prince comes in. Barristan has no idea about Aegon, the Tattered Prince ruled Pentos before Illyrio had him thrown out or chased him out. He probably knows about Aegon as we suspect that Illyrio's wife is a Blackfyre decendant and Aegon is his son. If not the tattered Prince, it may be Tyrion that tells Barristan. They will confer this to Dany and she will add it up with her visions in the house of the Undying. Tyrion has not mentioned knowing whether Aegon is fake or not but if anyone could use deductive reasoning like Sherlock Holmes, it is Tyrion.

Edited by Lord Damian, 24 March 2012 - 12:30 AM.

[EgoistMusketeer]

Has anyone mentioned the fact that the Golden Company, for the first time ever, broke their contract so they could join up with Aegon.
I think its in the Tyrion POV that someone tells him that the reason the GC broke their contract is because some contracts supersede others, especially those writ in blood. Something along those lines.  That's all the proof we need, the Golden Company's blood contract is to secure the heir to the Blackfyre bloodline to the iron throne.

[Fire Eater]

Lord Damian, on 24 March 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

This is where I think the Tattered Prince comes in. Barristan has no idea about Aegon, the Tattered Prince ruled Pentos before Illyrio had him thrown out or chased him out. He probably knows about Aegon as we suspect that Illyrio's wife is a Blackfyre decendant and Aegon is his son. If not the tattered Prince, it may be Tyrion that tells Barristan. They will confer this to Dany and she will add it up with her visions in the house of the Undying. Tyrion has not mentioned knowing whether Aegon is fake or not but if anyone could use deductive reasoning like Sherlock Holmes, it is Tyrion.

I don't think Illyrio had the Tattered Prince driven out of Pentos, but he probably left around the time of Illyrio's rise to power in Pentos. he will have some things to say about Illyrio. I agree Illyrio's wife may have been a Blackfyre descendant and Aegon his son. After the Maelys the Monstrous's death, Illyrio and others involved in the Blackfyre ascendancy came up with a plot that would place the son of the female Blackfyre heir on the Iron Throne, not from conquest without but from within.

[David C. Hunter]

GRRM said he doesn't want us to figure out what is going to happen.

Varys outright saying what is going to hapen is tto obvious and out if character for him and GRRM

Honestly based on everything Ive learned about Varys, it makes no sense that he would put a dragon on the throne, black or red.

[GrandPoobah]

Uncat, on 07 March 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

I'm not sure about the lineage, but is the claim of the Blackfyres really not legitimate? The D&E story Sworn Swords gave me the impression, that one claim was as good as the other. Or is it just that they lost? I mean, they are Tagerians, too.

Thing to understand, bastard bloodlines only sit the throne if they've been legitimized or the true-born have died out. Even if the latter happens, there's likely to be some bloodshed before it can effectively happen. Once there's a new king who's got a reasonable level of acceptance, him being replaced by someone deemed more eligible is only going to happen via warfare.

There's no absolute rules, of course. While Robert Barratheon took the Iron Throne by beating the Targaryen forces on the battlefield (and by Jaime killing Aerys II), one of the biggest reasons it was him sitting the throne rather than Jon Arryn or Eddard Stark is that the Barratheon family was a bastard line of the Targaryen family. Going WAY back to the family's beginning there was bastard Targaryen blood. More recently and more importantly, Robert's grandmother was Rhaelle Targaryen.

None of this is an automatic switch that makes someone the next king. If you've got enough things that make you acceptable by the masses (more importantly to the powerful few) and you've got the political and military capabilities to become king, you stand a better chance of winning the game of thrones...

[Axon]

David C. Simmons, on 28 March 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

Honestly based on everything Ive learned about Varys, it makes no sense that he would put a dragon on the throne, black or red.

Hm?  His intent since day one has been to do so.  He profits from chaos and he profits from the Targs more than he does the Lannisters, et al.  Killing Kevan was clear evidence of that; Kevan was a threat to stabilize matters. Cersei will not be able to muster enough martial strength to push off the Targ attack, but I assume everyone will be SOL once the walkers get on the move.

[GrandPoobah]

Spjuth, on 10 March 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

On to the Topic, I seems to recall that Daemon Blackfyre was made a legitimate heir. Which should put him in the line of succesion. But after all of Dearon's child's. Even if he only has female heirs they will still comne before any non-Targaryens. Following the old order that is. But after Robert''s Rebelion, the only order of Succesion seems to be the size of ones army...

Robert's grandmother was Rhaella Targaryen, who was legally married to his grandfather. He had SOME form of a claim, which was admittedly far less than Viserys had.

One's claim on the throne is really only as important as it helps one gain backers. Some houses will go to whatever side offers them the best reward for doing so. Then there's gonna be the occasional Ned Stark type. Having some kind of seemingly legitimate claim helps one rally the troops and get others to go along.

It's not like there's a Westerosi Supreme Court that's going to trace Targaryen lineage back to the Valyrian Doom. There's right, there's right enough until something righter comes along,and there's right enough until they totally screw things up enough that you simply let someone else take over. Aerys was a bad enough king that enough of the key players aligned against him. Robert wasn't an ideal choice, but he was of royal enough blood, had enough of the right people behind him, and eventually won the war.

After the fall of Napoleon Bonaparte, nobody in France went looking for the most legitimately royal surviving member of my family to give the crown back to. Aside from having had a revolution to get rid of those folks, they were simply no longer politically relevant or powerful. Similarly, even if the Blackfyre family is "more legitimately Targaryen" than the surviving Targaryen herself, Aegon would not be crowned because he's a Blackfyre, he'd be crowned because the truth was swept under the rug. Not that I really foresee him winning after his popping up so late in "the game."

Edited by GrandPoobah, 30 March 2012 - 01:27 PM.

[Kings Wood Outlaw]

The dragon has three heads Daenarys, Aegon and Dondarions squire Ned who has purple eyes & was Jon Snows milk brother. He believes he is from the house of the greatest knight the sword of the morning

[Magjee]

Ser Lepus, on 07 March 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

The Blackfyres are descended from a bastard, Daemon Blackfyre; he was ever considered a candidate only because Daeron, the legitimate Targayren heir, was a wise and learned scholar who wasn´t good at crushing people´s brains with big chuncks or iron, and the westerosi, cunning and forward-minded as they are , decided that was beyond all bearing: They wanted a good jouster and swordfighter as king,  even if Daeron was a bastard.

Eh, one claim really was as good as the other.

No one was really sure Daeron II was his a legitimate heir anyway, suspected to be the Son of the Dragonknight.

Blackfyre is the son of Aegon the unworthy and his sister, so Targ on both sides and the King did give him the sword.

[lmanion]

At this point the Blackfyre line has almost as good a claim to the throne as anyone else. As said Daemon was the son of Aegon the unworthy and his sister while he believed his heir Daeron was Aemon the dragonknights son which is thought to be why Aegon IV legitimised his Bastards and gave Blackfyre to Daemon.

[CrypticWeirwood]

lmanion, on 09 April 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

At this point the Blackfyre line has almost as good a claim to the throne as anyone else. As said Daemon was the son of Aegon the unworthy and his sister while he believed his heir Daeron was Aemon the dragonknights son which is thought to be why Aegon IV legitimised his Bastards and gave Blackfyre to Daemon.

No, Daemon was the son of Aegon IV Targaryen by his cousin Princess Daena Targaryen, the former queen.

The Blackfyres claim that Daeron was the son of Aegon’s brother, Prince Aemon Targaryen the Dragonknight, by Aegon and Aemon’s  sister Queen Naerys Targaryen, who was simultaneously Aegon’s sister, wife, and queen.

One shouldn’t really call Daemon and Daeron half-brothers.  Even though under the Blackfyre heresy they share no parents in common (and thus would not be brothers of any sort), they are nonetheless more closely related than normal brothers are because of the intense inbreeding. And they are both descended from  Aegon the Conqueror on both their parents’ sides.

[Philip Sim]

the wolf warg, on 12 March 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

i dont get why people think ageon is a fake why would it not be possible for varys to sneak him out if visyers and his mother who was pregnant with dany could escape,i believe he is a legitimate targ and will in fact sit the throne but like people are saying it will be short(death) and dany will hear of this and her rage will bring her to westeros(FINALLY).

Even if yg is a blackfrye its still a better claim to the throne than any of cerseis children so he would on have dany and stannis to worry about.

Dark horse...does anyone else think edric storm has any shot of winning the throne? and he then would install gendy as storm lord? i think that would be great

Yeah but Dany, Vicerys and their Mother were on DragonStone, they weren't in King's Landing During the sack. To be honest i can't see any Baratheon sitting the Iron Throne Bastard or Not.

[girlfrommonday]

Lord Damian, on 13 March 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

There seems to be too much forshadowing about the Blackfyres, the Goldend company and its origins, Ser Barristan's past experiences engaging them and trying to tie in Illyrio and Varys plotline and it makes too much sense that Aegon is a Blackfyre pretender they have been planning for for years since the rebellion atleast. Since the first book, Illyrio and Varys have been together, we have wondered why, this is it, its name is "Aegon"

I totally agree.
Varys is die-hard Blackfyre supporter. Before and during the rebellion, he had big influence on Mad King and a) he told him that Rhaegar wants removing Aerys as a king, causing tension between father and son he did nothing to stop events during Robert's rebellion. I think that he already wanted to prepare the realm for return of Blackfyre.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Is there any indication as to why Vary's is blackfyre supporter, i'm not talking about evidence that he is, but what would be his motivation

[Im no Ser]

Ser Pollo Loco, on 11 April 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

Is there any indication as to why Vary's is blackfyre supporter, i'm not talking about evidence that he is, but what would be his motivation

One possibility is that he is a Blackfyre himself.  Another is that while he isn't a Blackfyre, his best friend's son is one.