40 replies to this topic

[redriver]

I had typed out a mile long rationale for this before I realized it would take a further two miles to fully explain it.

Better to let you back or attack,and I will answer.

It's based on visions,dreams and prophecies of characters major and minor,and those of Jon himself.

Also on the plot line and the themes of the series.

[Winter's Lady]

Evey time I read the words "Ghost" and "Nissa Nissa" in the same sentence I just die a little inside

But going by the description of the first sacrifice as the thing AA held most dear, that could only be Ghost or Arya imo. But why would Jon be an Other? I think there is a connection between them and the Starks, but I don't believe they can become Others. Those seem to be very different from the human race.
Not that it really matters, because the Nights Watch is Lightbringer and Nissa Nissa is giving up family and love. It is known

[redriver]

Lady of Oldcastle, on 07 March 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

Evey time I read the words "Ghost" and "Nissa Nissa" in the same sentence I just die a little inside

But going by the description of the first sacrifice as the thing AA held most dear, that could only be Ghost or Arya imo. But why would Jon be an Other? I think there is a connection between them and the Starks, but I don't believe they can become Others. Those seem to be very different from the human race.
Not that it really matters, because the Nights Watch is Lightbringer and Nissa Nissa is giving up family and love. It is known

The basis of humans becoming Others is based on the tales of Craster and the Night's King.

From Craster we know that he only keeps female children.The males he leaves for the Others.I think it's in ASOS that a crone says,because it's getting colder,that Craster's sons are returning,aka the Others.

The Night's King was a commander of the NW who fell in love with what sounds like a female WW.Blue eyes,pale,cold etc.Finally brought down by his brother who was a Stark too,because it was found out that she and the Night's King were making sacrifices to the Others.

But sacrificing what?We can assume it wasn't children because of the NW vows.

So adults then?We know that dead people are turned into Wights by the Others,but the implication from Craster and the NK is that live,but nearly dead people can be turned into WW.

They are not so different from the human race in that they have human shape,sentience,language and eyes.

Why they are so opposed to life is a key question of the series.As Jon bluntly asks Sam,"Who are they,where do they come from,and what do they want?"

I think he finds out first hand.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Are we sure the NW's vows are the same from the very beginning? They could have been changed after the Night's King, adding the "take no wife, father no children" part. He could have been sacrificing his sons (half Stark, assuming that what Old Nan said is true, half WW) to them. As Lady of Oldcastle said, I also think the WW and the Starks are connected in some way and I believe Benjen disappearing might be the clue. I also think there won't be a physical Nissa-Nissa (as in killing someone he loves with his sword) for Jon if he eventually becomes AA, he already has sacrificed many things, family, friends, Ygritte, Winterfell and his own life.

[chris999]

Being hypothetical here.

If Jon were become AA, maybe him thrusting his sword in Ghost could symbolize him renouncing the Old Gods (by killing his closest warg companion) and accepting the Lord of Light as his true god.

Azor Ahai is pure 100% a tool of Ry'llor. I dont think that it would be acceptable that Ry'llor would accept a believer in another god as his champion. His champion needs to be a servant of the same religion.

That among many other things is what leads me to believe that The lord of the Light, and his Red Priests, especially Mellisandre, are evil.

I am hoping that Jon will acknowledge his faith in the Old Gods, and I think that the next two book are going to "flip the script" and set the tone for a confrontation between the true heros, the followers of the Old Gods against Melissandre and her False/evil God..

Surely I am not the only one that beleives that Mel is evil, and that she is using Stannis and Jon Snow in some fashion that serves her own purpose. She has too much influence over what is happening at the wall right now, and I dont like it.

Edited by chris999, 07 March 2012 - 09:26 AM.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

chris999, on 07 March 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

<snip>

I pretty much agree with your whole post and that's why I don't see Jon being AA, I don't see Jon forgeting the Old Gods and embracing Rhllor and its fire freaks. I don't trust Melisandre and I hope she doesn't take any part in saving Jon.

Edited by Val the Wildling Princess, 07 March 2012 - 09:31 AM.

[the Remarkable Other]

I'm not actually sure that AA absolutely has to be a devout follower of R'hllor. That is what the red priests wish, but IMO as long as he does whatever AA is supposed to do (destroy the Others probably) it matters very little what god he follows.

[Fire_Kiss]

I don't think we have any proof at all that AA or TPTWP is a pure tool of R'hllor.

Surely the battle for the dawn predates the red religion.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

redriver, on 07 March 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

The Night's King was a commander of the NW who fell in love with what sounds like a female WW.Blue eyes,pale,cold etc.Finally brought down by his brother who was a Stark too,because it was found out that she and the Night's King were making sacrifices to the Others.

Please reference where it is written that the Night's King was a Stark and brought down by his brother?

[redriver]

chris999, on 07 March 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

Being hypothetical here.

If Jon were become AA, maybe him thrusting his sword in Ghost could symbolize him renouncing the Old Gods (by killing his closest warg companion) and accepting the Lord of Light as his true god.

Azor Ahai is pure 100% a tool of Ry'llor. I dont think that it would be acceptable that Ry'llor would accept a believer in another god as his champion. His champion needs to be a servant of the same religion.

That among many other things is what leads me to believe that The lord of the Light, and his Red Priests, especially Mellisandre, are evil.

I am hoping that Jon will acknowledge his faith in the Old Gods, and I think that the next two book are going to "flip the script" and set the tone for a confrontation between the true heros, the followers of the Old Gods against Melissandre and her False/evil God..

Surely I am not the only one that beleives that Mel is evil, and that she is using Stannis and Jon Snow in some fashion that serves her own purpose. She has too much influence over what is happening at the wall right now, and I dont like it.

I totally agree with what you and Val are saying.The Red religion is evil,as is the Nissa Nissa fable.

A loved one has to die in order to battle evil?Says who?

I'm not saying Jon joins one side or the other,but that as the prophecy goes,his is the song of ice and fire.

He is the essence of both.If you think that's impossible,Google the chemistry of water.

That the Others appear evil is in no doubt.Maybe they are "misunderstood",maybe they are evil.

Either way,there is at least an explanation for them.

[redriver]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 07 March 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Please reference where it is written that the Night's King was a Stark and brought down by his brother?

Here-http://awoiaf.wester...hp/Night&#39;s_King

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 07 March 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Please reference where it is written that the Night's King was a Stark and brought down by his brother?

I think the only time we heard about the NK is through Old Nan telling the story to Bran. She says no one knew who he was, some say he was an Umber, a Flint, a Norrey, but she also says that his true identity was a Stark. It's on ASOS, in one of Bran's chapters.

Edited by Val the Wildling Princess, 07 March 2012 - 09:53 AM.

[chris999]

I love the confusion. All we know is that we have a song of 'Ice" and "Fire".

As to what Ice means and what Fire means is still up for interpretation.

What does "Ice" mean?

Is it"The Others", or does it mean the Starks, "Kings of Winter"

What about "Fire"?

Does it mean Ry'llor(the Fire God) and AA... or does it mean the Dany and her fire breathing dagons?

Considering that this is the "Song of Ice and Fire", we have to assume that whatever the correct answer to this question is, it is going to be the plot of the whole story.

I like the way that it isnt written in stone yet, and that anything is still possible.

Personally, I hope that we are in for surprises. If it is just "Azor Ahai"  vs. "The Others" then we already have it figured out, and know how the story is going to end. Where is the fun in that? Another story with a predictable ending...

I think that GRRM still has some things to throw at us from the left feild that he doesnt want us to see coming.

Edited by chris999, 07 March 2012 - 09:58 AM.

[redriver]

Val the Wildling Princess, on 07 March 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

Are we sure the NW's vows are the same from the very beginning? They could have been changed after the Night's King, adding the "take no wife, father no children" part. He could have been sacrificing his sons (half Stark, assuming that what Old Nan said is true, half WW) to them. As Lady of Oldcastle said, I also think the WW and the Starks are connected in some way and I believe Benjen disappearing might be the clue. I also think there won't be a physical Nissa-Nissa (as in killing someone he loves with his sword) for Jon if he eventually becomes AA, he already has sacrificed many things, family, friends, Ygritte, Winterfell and his own life.

In terms of the vows,I think we have to go with what we have,as opposed to moulding things to fit our theories.

In terms of sacrifice,the original NN story as told by Sallador to Davos,relates that the hero killed she "who he loved best in all the world" in order to temper the blade.A true sacrifice.It's not like giving up chewing gum for Lent.

[chris999]

As far as if the NW vows actually changed or not because of the NightsKing is very important to the idea that I am trying to follow. What exactly did the Night King do that was "so terrible" that it was erased from history?

This is a huge influence as to my theories about what Samwell is going to find in his research at the Citadel.

What the NightKing did was important, and it is going to be a game changer. How will that affect what happens in the story.

Edited by chris999, 07 March 2012 - 10:04 AM.

[redriver]

chris999, on 07 March 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

As far as if the NW vows actually changed or not because of the NightsKing is very important to the idea that I am trying to follow. What exactly did the Night King do that was "so terrible" that it was erased from history?

This is a huge influence as to my theories about what Samwell is going to find in his research at the Citadel.

What the NightKing did was important, and it is going to be a game changer. How will that affect what happens in the story.

The implication is that he had relations with an Other.Which further implies that you can have relations with a WW.

Real world reflections in the rise to power of Akinahten in Ancient Egypt,the first monotheist and his subsequent obliteration from all records.

The terrible thing was human sacrifice,as far as the NK is concerned.The wrongness of human sacrifice is a central theme of the series,imo.

[ghost the direwolf]

Ghost is not going to be jon's NN. If jon kills Ghost it will kill him, he is ghost and ghost is him. he will not be Jon Snow.  NO no no no.

[Ice Turtle]

My own crackpot (posted already somewhere) is that Stark that killed Night king died childless and the one that preserved Stark line was in reality the child of the Nightking, and all accounts were erased to save the child's life and the secret. It's parallel to why was ToJ torn down.

[redriver]

ghost the direwolf, on 07 March 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

Ghost is not going to be jon's NN. If jon kills Ghost it will kill him, he is ghost and ghost is him. he will not be Jon Snow.  NO no no no.

Did Sansa die with Lady?

[tze]

Azor Ahai loved Nissa Nissa more than anything in the world. But if you think about it, Jon doesn't actually seem to love Ghost more than anything in the world. He doesn't cherish being a warg in the same way that, say, Dany cherishes her belief that she is "the dragon"; he doesn't seem to even look forward to running in Ghost's skin, it's more of an "okay,  so that's happening" attitude. Even if Jon associated Ghost with power, which frankly he doesn't seem to, Jon doesn't seem to love power. Jon considers the Old Gods to be an important part of his identity as a son of Eddard Stark, but it's not like a direwolf is the only Old Gods symbol in his vicinity. Ghost is part of Jon, but Jon really doesn't love or value himself more than anything else. Jon has tried, or at the very least intended, to sacrifice himself on multiple occasions. Sacrificing Ghost would just be more of the same.

And I don't think we have any evidence that AA is meant to be a champion of R'hllor. The Red Priests interpet it that way, but their entire worldview is pure good vs pure evil, so if AA is "good", by their logic, he must be on their side. The Targs didn't worship R'hllor, and they certainly seemed to think AA/PTWP would come from them.

Edited by tze, 07 March 2012 - 10:54 AM.