52 replies to this topic

[SeanF]

I think that Mereen will still be viable when she returns;  that she'll kill Hizdhar (if he's still alive). the Green Grace, and anyone else whom she considers an actual or potential opponent of her rule.  Then, she'll leave the Shavepate in charge.

[Blood.of.my.Blood]

If she didn't need Selmy so much i could see her entrusting it to him. His work with his young knights seems very important to him and i can imagine some part of him wanting to stay.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

At this point I don't care who ends up ruling Meereen or what happens to it, and I frankly don't think Danybshoul either.  Her rule there has been a complete disaster from start to finish.   She makes more enemies with every step she takes, the slaves she "freed" are by and large in worse shape than they were in before she freed them, and the Meereenese who actually count (ie, have the power/money/connections to oppose her will never accept the rule of this foreign stranger who has destroyed their way of life - and they're not going to accept any figurehead she leaves behind to rule in her stead, either.

Further, her time and actions in Meereen have allowed a vile and vicious repitation to spring up for her all across Essos, so she is unlikely to find help or support anywhere else on the continent.

At some point, one has to admit failure and stop throwing good time/money/lives after bad.  

Dany cannot - I repeat, CANNOT- free and protect every slave and freedman in Essos.  At some point the remaining slaves and freedmen have to take some responsibility for themselves and their own fate.  It will take generations to fully do away with the institution (if that happens at all) as it has historically in every situation where slavery has been abolished. The inherent poverty and low social standing of freedmen, as well as the struggle to not be enslaved again (or simply shifted into a different "type" of slavery) requires time, resources and support that Dany does not have, and could not create no matter how long or hard she tries.  The freedmen are simply going to have to pick up the beginning opening she has created for them and run with it, or not.

I don't honestly think that Westeros' reception of her is going to be any warmer, or that they will see her as any less of a foreign interloper come to turn their way of life upside down.

Given how well she adopted and adapted to Dothraki ways, and that she still has some level of standing and rrspect and acceptance from the Dothraki (and can gain more, as the Dothraki DO value might and force over all else, and give their allegiance and respect to whoever holds the most power), I think she should simply take over the khalasar she has just landed in the middle of, and go back to being "THE" khaleesi.  It would require a bit of an adjustment among the Dothraki to accept a woman ruling a khalasar, but this is not just any woman, and the Dothraki have already shown some ability to adapt to unconventional ways when someone is quite clearly marked by the Great Stallion as a person to be honored, perhaps worshipped.  

IMO, that would be her wisest course.  It is not the one she is going to take, because she is not wise, but her returning to Slaver's Bay or attempting to take Westeros is simply going to end in a bloodbath.

[GreenHand]

I think it's clear that Meereen cannot be ruled by force alone.

I think it the new leadership will have to at least include some ghiscari flavour (by tradition or authority).

I think Daenerys has learned that the absence of a martial/enforcing component to the leadership (in contrast to her Healer-Scholar-Priest council in Astapor) is naive.

While she is probably deeply tempted to hand power over to ONE person she trusts, I think she realizes there isn't anyone she can be sure to trust entirely. So I think she'll opt for a council again.

So I'm going out on a limb with specifics.

I think she has regard for the Green Graces.I think she will leave a council of three or four again.
+ The Green Grace (with her priesthood, & maybe the Sons of the Harpy)
+ Skahaz mo Kandaq (with his Brazen Beasts)
+ Hizdahr zo Loraq (if she finds him innocent of poisoning), otherwise an elected Ghiscari noble or one of her groomed hostages

+ maybe one of her own people:
.   The Red Lamb (can maintain alliance with Lhazareen, but has too much fury)?
.   Missandei (good person but will want to stay with her brothers who would go with Dany to Westeros)?
.   A freedman with some experience?
.   The Tattered Prince (as an offering because she refuses to conquer Pentos)?
.   An Unsullied (but she surely realizes that they are not leaders, but merely obey)?
.   A pit fighter? (They are honoured and fierce but could any rule?)
.   A local-born sellsword? (doubtful, no-body trusts them and no-one has stuck out by way of their character)

That leaves Grace, Tradition/Authority, and Cunning in three people.

The sting in the tail is that Daenerys, thinking the Green Grace and a nobleman balance each other's power, will allow two thirds of the triumvriat council to join forces and dominate the Shavepates.

I think it would be wiser of Daenerys to include a fourth faction on the council.

Edited by GreenHand, 13 March 2012 - 12:20 PM.

[Apple Martini]

SeanF, on 08 March 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

I think that Mereen will still be viable when she returns;  that she'll kill Hizdhar (if he's still alive). the Green Grace, and anyone else whom she considers an actual or potential opponent of her rule.  Then, she'll leave the Shavepate in charge.

Except she — and everyone else, apparently — has yet to clue in to what the Green Grace really is.

[Dareaper]

Light a wight tonight, on 07 March 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

She gives the city to Daario as a parting gift so she'll be free to marry someone suitable in Westeros. I suggest Ramsay Bolton.

Except i think

Spoiler

he was one of the bodies thrown back to Meereen at the end of the book

My .02, she finally realized that in order to go farward she has to go back.  She has to look at her mistakes, learn from them, and go back tot he begining.  I think she will go to the mother of the mountians, and become the Khal of Khals.  Then I think she will lay waste to the slaver cities, gather up surviers and leave.  But that is to say, if there is anything elft after the iron born, and other factions converge.

[Apple Martini]

Dareaper, on 13 March 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Except i think

Spoiler

he was one of the bodies thrown back to Meereen at the end of the book

Spoiler

As much as I'd love to see Daario do a faceplant in the city wall, I think they were hurling diseased corpses, not the hostages.

Edited by Apple Martini, 13 March 2012 - 01:20 PM.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

Just did a reread of the final Mereen chapters.

My money is on the Shavepat. The guy is cunning, ruthless, is certain that the Green Grace is the Harpy, and has full control over the city watch.

He played Selmy much like Littlefinger played Ned, and I actually saw impressive parallels between Ned and Selmy's stubbornness.

I'm uncertain if the Shavepat poisoned the locusts, though this seems plausible. Dany's husband had just dismissed him, so he'd lost all power, but chose to sneak around as a Brazen Beast. The Brazen Beasts guarded the King's box that day instead of he unsullied. If the king ate the locusts and died, the Shavepat would return to power and war would ensure (he wants war with Yunkai). If Dany and the king died, he could blame the treachery on Yunkai and try and seize power to avenge Dany's death. If only Dany died. . .well that's pretty much what happened - instead she just flew away. The Shavepat can convince the remaining court that the king poisoned her and take power for himself. No matter what, he wins.

At the moment he Shavepat needs Selmy to command he army in the field, but if Mereen wins, and Dany hasn't returned, I could see the Shavepat getting rid Selmy, so he can rule Mereen for himself. The unsullied would do nothing as they don't have their mother to command them, and the Shavepat holds the king hostage, so he's holding almost all of the cards.

If Dany returns early, he still looks like the good guy who's always been on her side.

Edited by QuaitheTheShadow, 18 May 2012 - 10:29 AM.

[David C. Hunter]

LadyoftheNorth72, on 08 March 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

At this point I don't care who ends up ruling Meereen or what happens to it, and I frankly don't think Danybshoul either.  Her rule there has been a complete disaster from start to finish.   She makes more enemies with every step she takes, the slaves she "freed" are by and large in worse shape than they were in before she freed them, and the Meereenese who actually count (ie, have the power/money/connections to oppose her will never accept the rule of this foreign stranger who has destroyed their way of life - and they're not going to accept any figurehead she leaves behind to rule in her stead, either.

Further, her time and actions in Meereen have allowed a vile and vicious repitation to spring up for her all across Essos, so she is unlikely to find help or support anywhere else on the continent.

At some point, one has to admit failure and stop throwing good time/money/lives after bad.  

Dany cannot - I repeat, CANNOT- free and protect every slave and freedman in Essos.  At some point the remaining slaves and freedmen have to take some responsibility for themselves and their own fate.  It will take generations to fully do away with the institution (if that happens at all) as it has historically in every situation where slavery has been abolished. The inherent poverty and low social standing of freedmen, as well as the struggle to not be enslaved again (or simply shifted into a different "type" of slavery) requires time, resources and support that Dany does not have, and could not create no matter how long or hard she tries.  The freedmen are simply going to have to pick up the beginning opening she has created for them and run with it, or not.

I don't honestly think that Westeros' reception of her is going to be any warmer, or that they will see her as any less of a foreign interloper come to turn their way of life upside down.

Given how well she adopted and adapted to Dothraki ways, and that she still has some level of standing and rrspect and acceptance from the Dothraki (and can gain more, as the Dothraki DO value might and force over all else, and give their allegiance and respect to whoever holds the most power), I think she should simply take over the khalasar she has just landed in the middle of, and go back to being "THE" khaleesi.  It would require a bit of an adjustment among the Dothraki to accept a woman ruling a khalasar, but this is not just any woman, and the Dothraki have already shown some ability to adapt to unconventional ways when someone is quite clearly marked by the Great Stallion as a person to be honored, perhaps worshipped.  

IMO, that would be her wisest course.  It is not the one she is going to take, because she is not wise, but her returning to Slaver's Bay or attempting to take Westeros is simply going to end in a bloodbath.

Very well said

[QuaitheTheShadow]

David C. Simmons, on 18 May 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

Very well said

It doesn't attempt to answer the question. Who will rule Mereen?

Edited by QuaitheTheShadow, 18 May 2012 - 10:47 AM.

[SerMixalot]

There is a major revolution brewing throughout Essos.  Slaves will rise throughout the land!  Mereen will be ruled by a fledgling democracy!

The Times They are A Changin!

[Lady Hodor]

I can't imagine that she'll burn it down to the ground, that would make all her previous work through two books-worth utterly pointless.
She was meant to stay in Meeren to learn how to take care of a kingdom, and if she decides to abandon it and burn it then she's learnt nothing at all.
And as her character is one that tends to learn from her mistakes, she shouldn't resolve to masacre the place.

[Talleyrand]

The Shavepate, he's doing a better job than her so far.

[K26dp]

Scarecrow, by virtue of his intelligence. Assisted by the Tin-Man and the Lion.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

Dany needs every soldier she can muster if she plans to invade, conquer and subdue an entire continent of battle hardened people.

The Unsullied are the best trained fighting force in Essos. If she doesn't take them to Westeros then she's a fool.

The Dothraki cannot be left back in Meereen to rule in her stead because the Dothraki are not rulers, they're pillagers. They are better used on the battlefield.

If Victarion joins forces with her then I'd imagine she'll add his fleet to her armies.

The only force I think she could possibly spare are the shavepates. It's their land, their people. They know which way is best to govern them.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

Talleyrand, on 18 May 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

The Shavepate, he's doing a better job than her so far.

If Selmy hadn't tied the Shavepat's hands I think he would have already won the battle by now. He would have taken Yunkia by complete surprise the day the king was seized. But of course that wasn't 'honorable' enough.

[BabyMeraxes]

Maybe Euron will put some Blue-lipped warlocks in charge. They'd probably do an alright job. It can't get much worse, right?

[Faint]

Dareaper, on 13 March 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Except i think

Spoiler

he was one of the bodies thrown back to Meereen at the end of the book

Apple Martini, on 13 March 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Spoiler

As much as I'd love to see Daario do a faceplant in the city wall, I think they were hurling diseased corpses, not the hostages.

I was under the impression that the latest Tyrion chapter, the one in TWoW, indicates that

Spoiler

Daario is still alive.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

The city already has pale mare inside the walls so the Yunkai aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, eh?

[the Scorpion Knight]

I think barristan unknowing and unwillingly shaped the future of mereen by founding the council