53 replies to this topic

[Lady Nico of Lys]

Most people have agreed that Jon Snow will survive the stabbing he receives at the end of DwD. They then speak of their hopes and dreams of the future and how Jon/Dany will live happily ever after etc etc as King/Queen. (Not counting the rather serious problem Aegon presents to this, unless he tries to tame a dragon ala Quentyn Martell)

The issue being that should Jon survive and decide to stay with the Night Watch/at the Wall, (Considering this will be where the true war will be fought) I doubt he will take anything that will be offered to him. One of the most likeable things about Jon is that he is a bastard. He accepts that. But he never wants to usurp others out of their positions. So, if Jon is proclaimed as Robb's heir, therefore the new King in the North, I cannot see Jon going for it. (Especially with getting to know Stannis, he will know how pleased Stannis will be with this information.)

Should R+L=J be true, and Jon be declared Prince of Summerhall or whatever, I can see him turning that down as well. He made his vows and after the issues he had with keeping his vows during Swords, I cannot see him turning from them again. I can see him saying 'Thanks, but no thanks' to these offers and staying at the Wall. Whether this will be rebuilding it after the Long Night or not. Should Jon actually die then come back, then you could argue that he is then released from his vows, because they only held until he died.

There is also the story of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa. If the Nights Watch is not Lightbringer, and Jon is Azor Ahai (because Azor Ahai and Prince-That-Was-Promised are two different things) then he would have to creae Lightbringer. Ghost is Jon. Jon is Ghost. Using Ghost to create Lightbringer would be very interesting. Or, alternatively, should the Jon/Dany thing (as Ice and Fire) pan out. Jon would have to kill Dany (ala Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa). Leaving Jon to win the fight, mourn his lost love and give Aegon the throne.

Either way, if Jon were to kill Dany forge Lightbringer, it would create a very bittersweet ending for the books, which is something that I can see happening. Not everyone will get there happily everyafter (though if the Freys/Boltons get theirs I will be pretty displeased)

[Ice Turtle]

I think that Jon/Dany shippers are actually minority on this forum.

I can't imagine Jon wanting Iron Throne, but if he feels it is his duty as Stannis he may accept it. I think that what we may see in the future is not Jon abandoning NW, but NW abandoning him. They may kick him out. I don't think he will be  king however. Dany will meet Stannis according her vision, and Stannis can't be king and still located in the north while Jon is king too.

[Falrinn]

I'm thinking Jon might take a hypothetical offer from Robb much more seriously then Stannis's offer for a number of reasons.

1. There's a decent chance Stannis is dead.  While Ramsey might be mistaken on the totality of his victory, I seriously doubt he would of claimed Stannis was dead unless he had good reason to believe so.  Most of the Northmen were only supporting Stannis for pragmatic reasons, if they are given another shot at having a King in the North, they will most likely take it.

2. Stannis tacked on two unreasonable conditions.  One was to marry Val, when Jon knew quite well that it would be pointless to do so as most Wildlings don't recognize hereditary rule.  The other was to take R'hllor as his god and sacrifice Winterfell's godswood to the nightfires, which would of made it impossible for Jon to be seen as anything other then a puppet of Stannis.

3. Jon was still a member of the Night's Watch at the time Stannis made the offer.  After Jon's little knife-related problem, that might not be the case.  Heck, the Night's Watch may cease to exist in any recognizable state if the Wildlings react badly.

[sinphonus]

It is far more likely that he survives  is taken away by Tormund, the guy with the boar and Wun Wun, the wildlings would then see how he had been attacked for helping him and he go king over the wall, he'd most likely storm Winterfell then return north to fight the Others.

[Ice Turtle]

Falrinn, on 07 March 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

3. Jon was still a member of the Night's Watch at the time Stannis made the offer.  After Jon's little knife-related problem, that might not be the case.  Heck, the Night's Watch may cease to exist in any recognizable state if the Wildlings react badly.

Love the phrase

[Lady Nico of Lys]

I still can't see him taking the job. Or rather, he will be offered it and before he can give his answer, Bran/Rickon will turn up. Making his answer pointless. There is also the angle that perhaps Jeyne Westerling escaped, that the girl Jaime sees is her sister and Jeyne is pregnant. But who would follow a baby as the King of the North?

Falrinn, on 07 March 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

3. Jon was still a member of the Night's Watch at the time Stannis made the offer.  After Jon's little knife-related problem, that might not be the case.  Heck, the Night's Watch may cease to exist in any recognizable state if the Wildlings react badly.

What a way to put that. Haha.

[kg1982]

I highly doubt after he's magically resurrected that Jon is going to remain at the Watch even if the Wall is still around.  I don't think that the Watch is going to want Jon around as much as he isn't going to want to be around the people who tried to murder him.  

My theory on Jon's future is that he loses his identity like the rest of the Starks, but it is an interesting twist because his "true" identity is the Targaryen heir and magical messiah.  I do think that he (after a sulking period) uses his identity to direct all of Westros resources toward fighting the Others.  I'm assuming that the ending battle will feature him and Dany leading the army against the Others, and I don't get how that plays out if Jon and Dany aren't accepted as leaders in at least reality if not name.  This could lead to come cool moments... Like perhaps Jon melting the Iron Throne down for Valaryian  weapons.  

However, that doesn't mean that he's actually crowned king.  I see one of three scenarios playing out.. One..  Jon remains king and rules the unified kingdom of the Reach, Westerlands, Crownlands, Riverlands, Vale, and Stormlands with the Dorne, Iron Islands, and North gaining their independence.  This ends up a bittersweet ending and he remains king out of a duty to see Westros rebuilt.  Second..  Jon gets the classic Western hero treatment, refuses the throne, and rides off in the sunset to Winterfell.  Third, Jon is mortally wounded in the Battle for Dawn and dies at Winterfell surrounded by the remaining Starks.

[No-One]

I've had a thought for quite awhile, since before DwD and more so after. It also could fit in with some of the theories above. I have searched around but haven't found anyone that has mentioned my theory.

The remaining Starks should come back together and Jon's knife incident is the beginning of this. Through the books it was mentioned about the growing pack of wolves in the forest. Arya, from Braavos has warned into her wolf. My thought is that Jon is warged into Ghost and since he was concerned about Winterfell he goes in that direction. Arya has thoughts of Winterfell also and wargs to her wolf and heads to Winterfell. This gives Jon the army he needs. Possible Bran see's via trees what is happening and might warg to meet them also after finding Rikken. Unless there is an underlying dire wolf communication that brings them all together with Arya's wolf army. Not sure how all that works out, I just see them all together to set things right with Arya's wolf army, which I think is in the thousands by DwD.

As for the blue eyed wonders north of the wall, we all know they are killed with fire. Jon knowing this and Arya knows they can warg across lands, they could warg into the other two dragons to bring them to the wall and Dany follows (just, in the beginning, to see where her dragons are going).

Thoughts?

[Val the Wildling Princess]

No-One, on 09 March 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

As for the blue eyed wonders north of the wall, we all know they are killed with fire. Jon knowing this and Arya knows they can warg across lands, they could warg into the other two dragons to bring them to the wall and Dany follows (just, in the beginning, to see where her dragons are going).

Thoughts?

Wights are killed by fire, yes, White Walkers we dont know. Their only weakeness so far is dragonglass/obsidian. And I doubt Arya can warg from across the sea an animal she doesn't have any bond with, she can warg Nymeria from so far because of the bond they share.

[No-One]

Ah yes Val, the bond. More things happening prior to warging to dragon(s) because of my forgetfulness , but I still think at some point it could happen. Several are of the thought Jon is one of the dragon riders and I think his "riding" is actually him warging into one.

Thank you Val for the reminder, more food for my thoughts.

[Faint]

Lady Nico of Lys, on 07 March 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

The issue being that should Jon survive and decide to stay with the Night Watch/at the Wall, (Considering this will be where the true war will be fought) I doubt he will take anything that will be offered to him . . .

That's a rather big assumption under which to start your analysis. Even starting with the smaller assumption that Jon still wants to be a member of the Night's Watch, what assurance do we have that he'll be able to?

In my mind, that last chapter of his really was a clean break, and I thought that even before he was killed. His plan to confront Ramsay was Jon basically divorcing himself from the Night's Watch, a fact which he even admitted to himself. I'm not here arguing the merits of the decision but he damn well knew he was going against his oaths by going south and I don't imagine he thought he would be able to resume his place when/if he got back.

And that's all before getting to the discussion over whether the Night's Watch still exists at Castle Black in the aftermath of Jon's assassination, how he will be resurrected, his condition after his resurrection, how the remaining members of the Night's Watch will regard him, whether Melisandre decides to move his body, etc.

[weirwood eyes]

If we think about the Night's Watch oath: Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death

If Jon dies ("dies" depending on if he warged into Ghost), I think he may be freed from his duties at the Wall. We know the wall contains some magical quality keeping his body from decaying like normal, so if Mel brings him back from death/Ghost, then he might be spared the Wall because of the oath: if he died, his watch could be legitimately justified as over.

Also if he comes back from the dead he may be able to do whatever he wants - I can imagine many in Westeros being scared/intimidated by or surrendering to one that defeated death. But then again, I don't know that I can ever make an accurate guess on what's going to happen next and how people are going to react in these books.

Edited by weirwood eyes, 09 March 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[No-One]

The Starks all have a strong sense of family, so this is part of the inner war Jon has had regarding the pull to leave the wall to help his family. Which he did and returned before getting too far because of the other element of the Stark nature, integrity. He was reminded of his oath. His choice to go to Winterfell in his last chapter, the family side of his inner war won.

To what could happen next in broad terms, I do believe he will go to Winterfell and be part of protecting the wall. Because of his strong sense of family, his oath and integrity. We don't know in what form he will do this but I don't believe we have seen the rest of his story and that story involves both sides of his inner war he has been struggling with.

Of course the other side of the Jon coin is him being dead. Period. In my mind it isn't a feasible option because the wall area needs an emotional tie for the reading audience to stay hooked to that storyline and he is it.

[Spencer Brown]

i dont think jon snow will warg into a dragon ever, if any stark is going to do it it would be bran....

[No-One]

Bran does seem to be the strongest in warging to be the one. But he would have to get there which he can't. Arya is there and might be able to bring one to Westeros for either Jon or Bran. I like your Bran idea, a lot and I think the experience would put a grin on his cute little face the rest of his life.

[James Arryn]

Falrinn, on 07 March 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

I'm thinking Jon might take a hypothetical offer from Robb much more seriously then Stannis's offer for a number of reasons.

In addition to the practical reason you've listed, I think this storyline might also hinge on an emotional/duty appeal from Robb that will surely accompany the will and Jon's being legitimized and made heir to Winterfell. He was sorely tempted to forsesake his vows to ride with Robb previously when he (Robb) was riding to danger; Robb speaking to him from the grave after the danger has come to pass might even carry more weight. Something along the lines of 'you're our only hope,Obi-wan'. And the Ides of March Wall-style thing may be the device that frees him from the moral conundrum re: his vows. Robb was pretty much Jon's closest friend in life. I think an appeal from him would carry more weight than from anyone else, possibly excepting Ned, even if the practicalities you listed weren't true.

I'm halfway convinced that Jon is the result of R+L, but then GRRM seems the type to change that even if it was the original intent, if only because it now seems the most probable explanation for the facts. So the storyline which may previously have involved Jon on a grander scale may be reduced to Jon Stark, King of the North. I presume Robb's will would legitimize him before making him heir, and once legitimaized he would supercede Bran, Rickon, Arya and Sansa even if the will was premised on a false assumption (ie, Jon's the last one left).

Edited by James Arryn, 09 March 2012 - 05:52 PM.

[mitch176]

There is a lot to suggest that Jon Snow's secrets are hidden in the crypts of Winterfell, therefore Jon must at some point go to Winterfell. Does this mean he abandons/is kicked out of The Night's Watch? It's unclear. But I think for him to go to Winterfell a lot must change.

[the Scorpion Knight]

I don't think he'll be kicked out of the night's watch and I don''t see him as king but I don't think he'll be at the wall at the end because he'll be wearing a white cloak

[lunadangelo]

I think that Tormund, Wun Wun et al will safe Jon and escape the Wall. It will be touch and go for a while and during that period he will have quite a few dreams and experiences as Ghost.

He is one of the only ones who see the big picture and wants to right the social wrongs and divisions that exist. By stabbing Jon, I think he can arguably say that he has been released from his vow to the Night's Watch and is free to go to safe the other Wildlings and then head to Winterfell with an army of Wildlings.

I cannot see him getting it on with Daenerys. I believe both have learnt from the past and realise that incest may not be the best way to go.

[Dany4eva]

Firstly, I pray jon doesn't come back as UnJon. I hope he either didn't die from stabbings n is just healing or he is resurrected in some other way. Because to me is seems the 'un's' are on borrowed time and I don't want that for jon.

Second, what if, after the battle with the others, there is no wall left? Or at least no need for the wall to be manned? Therefore he could be free for his vows and to pursue kingship

Second, I find it anti-climatic for jon just to be king in the north. I expect the iron throne and no less. But I can be satisfied he if turns out to be aa, saves the world and then retires to a quiet life with some chick.