Kings of Winter

[Bride of Winter]

A few questions..

1) What's the difference between a King of Winter and a King in the North? Believe me, I've tried to look, but I read different things everywhere, and none of them are consistent or substantial. The Wiki says that the Starks for a while were only Kings of Winter because the Boltons wouldn't kneel for thousands of years (so they weren't in control of the entire north), but does anyone else think it's a little more than that? Maybe I'm just overthinking it because "King of Winter" is such an awesome title, but especially seeing the north's ... colorful ... history/culture that's slowly surfacing, I wouldn't be surprised it it meant more than a just fancy synonym for King in the North :dunno: .

2) There's no precedent for a King ruling the entire north (ie. including the lands "beyond the wall" before the wall was built), is there? I'm not an expert on history, but it seems like the Starks were founded by Bran the Builder, who built the Wall and Winterfell. So unless there was a King before him...?

I'm getting off topic. My point is, I can't help but think about Jon and all of the support he has from the willdings (and his letting them below the wall), which seems to be pretty much unprecedented. Also the fact that they do have a King beyond the wall. Now Mance isn't exactly your typical king, but I still think there may be some way to unite the North with the Wildlings after all.

3) Do you think we'll see another King in the North / King of Winter rise (and hopefully stay) by the end of the series? I'm trying to be as objective as I can when I say this - but I really don't think the whole fuss about Robb uniting the North and the Riverlands and being the first KitN in 300 years was for nothing, even if the majority of the War of Five Kings was a red herring. I truly believe something will come of it.

[kissdbyfire]

As far as I recall, we never get an explanation on the difference (or even if there is a difference) between King in the North and the King of Winter; I think there is but there isn’t enough trustworthy information in the text to figure out exactly what which entails. You might want to check out this thread where there’s lots of very interesting debates (with some very smart and nice people) about ‘all things north’. I think before the Seven Kingdoms were formed there were many, many kingdoms; according to Old Nan, AGoT, chapter 24, Bran IV:

“Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest.”

I agree with you about a possible union of the north and the free folk, I think it’s a given. And I definitely think we’ll see a King in the North. I read a post a while back about a unified Westeros that was really, really good but I can’t remember where I read it... I keeping going back and forth on this, actually – whether I think we’ll have a unified Westeros or several separate, independent kingdoms. I kinda like the idea of separate kingdoms and no bloody Iron Throne! :eek:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

1. The King of Winter was the monarchal title of heads of House Stark before the Targaryen invasion. The King in the North, as far as I can tell, is specific to Robb (and his heir(s), I presume).

2. I'm not sure what political structure was in place before the Wall and how much any one family ruled before then. Whoever it was, it was apparently someone other than the Starks.

3. I hope so.

[psychogobstopper]

What's the difference between a King of Winter and a King in the North? Believe me, I've tried to look, but I read different things everywhere, and none of them are consistent or substantial.

"King in the North" and "King of Winter" do appear to be synonymous. When Jon "Greatjon" Umber declared Robb Stark to be the new King in the North, Maege Mormont was the third person to swear fealty and used the "King of Winter" title in so doing. The title was mentioned six other times in AGOT, not mentioning the House Stark entry in the appendix.

The first of the other occurrences came from Jon, who remarked that "The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves" in reference to the Winterfell crypts. The second was in the Eddard chapter when he found out Robert had been gravely injured; he was woken from a dream in which he was in front of Lyanna's statue in the Winterfell crypts ("The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice"). The third was an Arya chapter, in which she thought back to a time when Robb had taken her and the other children down into the crypts ("Bran's eyes had gotten as big as saucers as he stared at the stone faces of the Kings of Winter"). The fourth was a Bran chapter as he remembered the burial of Lady's bones ("Beneath the shadow of the First Keep was an ancient lichyard, its headstones spotted with pale lichen, where the old Kings of Winter had laid their faithful servants."). The fourth was an Eddard chapter while he was imprisoned in King's Landing; he remembered the joke about the King's Hand that Robert had made "as the Kings of Winter looked on with cold stone eyes." The fifth was a Bran chapter, while he was in the Winterfell crypts with Osha; he referred to the statues as representing the Kings of Winter, and Maester Luwin added "They were the Kings in the North for thousands of years."

The "King of Winter" title was mentioned three times in ACOK. The first was in reference to "the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter" having been yielded to Aegon I when Torrhen Stark bent the knee (and it goes on to say that no one knows what Aegon did with the crown). The second was when Jamie Lannister derisively asked Robb, "Did the old Kings of Winter hide behind their mother's skirts as well?". The third was when Bran, Rickon, and company were leaving Winterfell - he thinks to himself "[...] under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones."

The title was mentioned twice in ASOS. The first was in a Catelyn chapter; she thought "Let the kings of winter have their cold crypt under the earth" (this was the chapter that begins with her recounting her father's funeral). The second was when Robb explained to Walder Frey why his crown was made out of bronze ("Bronze and iron are stronger than gold and silver. The old Kings of Winter wore such a sword-crown.").

The title was mentioned once in AFFC, but only in the House Stark entry in the appendix. It stated "The Starks trace their descent from Brandon the Builder and the Kings of Winter." This is also its only mention in ADWD.

There's no precedent for a King ruling the entire north (ie. including the lands "beyond the wall" before the wall was built), is there? I'm not an expert on history, but it seems like the Starks were founded by Bran the Builder, who built the Wall and Winterfell. So unless there was a King before him...?

Bran the Builder indeed founded House Stark, and was the first person crowned as King in the North. Some of his territory may have stretched past where the Wall was built, but I don't think there's been anything in the text that has specified whether or not it did.

(Post edited to include additional information, and to match tenses.)

[Nymeria's pup]

An interesting topic. I had wondered if there was a distinction too. I do think there is more significance to the King in the North/Kings of Winter than just backstory of the Starks (or at least I hope so). GRRM paints a very vivid world, but I get the feeling he did not go through all the trouble of creating these rich backstories unless they have some bearing on the the present story. I think there may be more. I will try to keep my eyes open for anything on this point during my reread!

[Lummel]

The Kings of Winter wear the crown of winter their words are "winter is coming" and they bear a sword called ice. King in the North sounds politer, possibly the title that emerged once there weren't any other kings between the Wall and the neck.

We don't know if Bran the Builder was a king, but the building of Winterfell, storm's end and the Wall are attributed to him. He is also said to be the founder of the house of stark. As in those days there may have been a hundred kings the title wouldn't have had the significance it came to have later. How far the realm of winter ran is unclear - the answer may depend on when you think the Wall was built. Thinking about the fist of the first men - maybe there were either more realms of men further north or there was a kingdom that straddled where the Wall runs now :dunno: .

As to the third point, maybe being king isn't the right answer for the Starks.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

I always took them as synonyms but of course i could be wrong, I had the impression that the King of Winter was the title for the ancient Stark kings and the King in the North is a more modern form. And yes, I think the North and the free folk will unite eventually.

[Black Crow]

Although Ned seemed to regard it as an expression denoting that times are hard but that the Starks can take it no matter what gets thrown at them, it actually sounds much more like a battle cry.

Winter is coming - to get you

[Lykos]

I think Kings of Winter is the old title used in the North and that it means more than just King in the North, to find out we´ll have to ask Old Nan or Maege Mormont, she seems to be the only one that remembers of all the Northmen in Riverrun.

It could be a hint that there is a King north of the North. But I think it´s telling us that the Starks used to rule winter.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Also want to point out that Robb was the king in the Riverlands as well as the North proper. So King in the North might have been more ... accurate, perhaps, than just King of Winter.

[Howling Mad]

And yes, I think the North and the free folk will unite eventually.

Prediction - two kingdoms emerge fire and ice.

[thetitansbastard]

Also want to point out that Robb was the king in the Riverlands as well as the North proper. So King in the North might have been more ... accurate, perhaps, than just King of Winter.

I think Robb was King in the North before 'conquering' the Riverlands. I think King of Winter was simply an older title, before certain houses like Bolton pledged fealty to the Starks.

[Jojen]

Seems like the King in the North would rule over a smaller area than the King of Winter, if you consider "the North" to contain the area between Mat Cailin and the Wall.

The King of Winter, especially during The Long Night, would conceivably have had a larger realm, given that during that time, winter reached into the lands south of the Neck (and even now is being felt as far south as Oldtown). I know there's no record of the Starks ruling over the Riverlands or anywhere else than than the North. Just saying that the King of Winter is more of a seasonal title while King in the North is more of a geographical one.

[Know Face Man]

I was thinking maybe Bran the Builder was a CotF and married into the ruling family of the North (First Men) forming HOUSE STARK and and the new title as King of the Winter.

Bran was said the have built the Wall, Winterfell and Storms End so it seems to me that he travels around Westeros. We hear from another CotF that they travel around for a long time untill they get older and then come home to rest or something like that.

This would explain how the Starks have their Warg ability's and how Bran Stark the crippled can see through the trees aswell as his green dreams

[Howling Mad]

I was thinking maybe Bran the Builder was a CotF and married into the ruling family of the North (First Men) forming HOUSE STARK and and the new title as King of the Winter.

Bran was said the have built the Wall, Winterfell and Storms End so it seems to me that he travels around Westeros. We hear from another CotF that they travel around for a long time untill they get older and then come home to rest or something like that.

This would explain how the Starks have their Warg ability's and how Bran Stark the crippled can see through the trees aswell as his green dreams

Interesting theory ;)

[Know Face Man]

Interesting theory ;)

Thank you

[mattah84]

I was thinking maybe Bran the Builder was a CotF and married into the ruling family of the North (First Men) forming HOUSE STARK and and the new title as King of the Winter.

Bran was said the have built the Wall, Winterfell and Storms End so it seems to me that he travels around Westeros. We hear from another CotF that they travel around for a long time untill they get older and then come home to rest or something like that.

This would explain how the Starks have their Warg ability's and how Bran Stark the crippled can see through the trees aswell as his green dreams

I very much think that your theory about Bran the Builder could be correct. It would definitely explain why the Starks have the abilities that they have. I mean, if he did build Storm's End, Winterfell, and the Wall, he definitely made the decision to include "Magic" in the blueprint.

I have felt for a very long time that Crannogmen are descendants of the COTF, but lately I have also found myself thinking that maybe in addition to the First Mans Blood, Starks have COTF blood as well.

Another thing that could help to explain to possibly explain the Stark's magical abilities is King Rickard Stark. King Rickard Stark was son of Jon Stark. Rickard Stark killed the last Marsh King, annexed the Neck to the Starks, and married the last Marsh King's daughter. To me, this sounds alot like a possible marriage between a Stark and a Crannogman.

Also, it has been mentioned at least twice that the COTF used to dwell in CRANNOGS. Maybe they interbred with the first men, and then you get CRANNOGMEN. Also, during the Age of Heroes, the COTF destroyed part of the Neck to try and stop the advance of the First Men, and up to this point, it seems like the Neck has been the primary location that we have seen Crannogmen.

[xspicer89x]

Osha smiled. "Winter's got no king. If you'd seen it, you'd know that, summer boy." --Last Bran chapter in GoT