479 replies to this topic

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

King Doug, on 07 May 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

We haven't been given details. Just that some tradegy happened there and Rhaegar would often seclude himself there.

Some details.  He tried to hatch a dragon egg and burned the place down, taking Sir Duncan the Tall and Prince Duncan, heir to the throne, to their fiery graves.  

I don't know if he was actually mad, but I don't think the reasoning is discussed.  But, there probably would not have been a Mad King Aerys, had King Egg not done that.

[Bushido]

^ Was it suggested that Dany could do that route? ( we know that Asshai boats reached the Westeros from the west,having in mind the shipwreck on the Frozen Coast (Shore) = Mance's red patch of cloth on his cloak

[VaramyrSixchins]

If the Ryswells hold domain over the Rills, why don't they have a keep, holdfast, or castle? They're closely associated with Barrowtown, I know, but the Rills are marked on the map a seperate region from Barrowtown. Do the Ryswells share Barrowtown with the Dustins? Do the Rills pay fealty to Barrowtown?

[Barristan the Boss]

I was wondering how big Viserion and Rhaegal are by the end of ADwD? In Quentyn's chapter Viserion is consistently described as a huge serpent, yet his jaws could only close around the neck of that crossbow man. Rhaegal has a head bigger than a horse, but is able to basically catch and eat a sheep in mid-air.
Drogon apparently has wings that spread 20 ft, so he probably dwarfs the other two, yet even he's barely big enough to ride.
If V and R are still little dragons, I dont think well see 3 riders descending on Westeros à la Aegon I in this series. That isn't to say theyll be useless in a war, but if they are 'small' by dragon standards, I don't see one or maybe both surviving the upcoming events.

Edited by Part time king, 03 June 2012 - 06:50 PM.

[trapyoung]

Why were Brazen Beasts donning locust masks outside of the doors housing Rhaegal and Viserion? Quentyn notes all the guards save their sergeant are wearing oust masks. At that time Selmy was seizing Hizdar and Shakhaz was supposed to get Reknaz, but I'm confused as to why locusts were there unless Shakhaz is the Harpy and attempting to cause strife and turmoil in the city for his purposes. Any thoughts?

[Ser Leftwich]

trapyoung, on 04 June 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

Why were Brazen Beasts donning locust masks outside of the doors housing Rhaegal and Viserion? Quentyn notes all the guards save their sergeant are wearing oust masks. At that time Selmy was seizing Hizdar and Shakhaz was supposed to get Reknaz, but I'm confused as to why locusts were there unless Shakhaz is the Harpy and attempting to cause strife and turmoil in the city for his purposes. Any thoughts?

Early in the Kingbreaker chapter Shakaz and Selmy are talking about how Hizdahr was looking for a reason to kill the Rhaegal and Viserion.  I would guess that Shakaz and Selmy set loyal men to guard the doors to the dragon-locker room.

Edit for spelling.

Edited by Ser Leftwich, 04 June 2012 - 07:37 PM.

[King Doug]

WillWork4NinjaPowers, on 31 May 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

Some details.  He tried to hatch a dragon egg and burned the place down, taking Sir Duncan the Tall and Prince Duncan, heir to the throne, to their fiery graves.  

I don't know if he was actually mad, but I don't think the reasoning is discussed.  But, there probably would not have been a Mad King Aerys, had King Egg not done that.

I thought all we had right now was speculation. No definitive cause for the fire that burned Summerhall down, although we are being led to believe that a dragon egg hatch attempt was the cause.

[Varamyr Sixskins]

Re-reading Dance with Dragon, in the "Lost Lord" chapter, shortly after Jorah abducted Tyrion, unbeknownst to Griff, when Griff is talking to Lemore,

“The plan was to reveal Prince Aegon only when we reached Queen Daenerys,” Lemore was saying.
“That was when we believed the girl was coming west. Our dragon queen has burned that plan to ash, and thanks to that fat fool in Pentos, we have grasped the she-dragon by the tail and burned our fingers to the bone[," said Griff].

What did Griff mean by this?  How did Griff, Illiro,Varys, and the Golden Company "grasp the she-dragon by the tail and burned their fingers to the bone"?

To me, their situation doesn't quite meet the graphical description of this phrase.  

Questions:
1) "Grasping the she-dragon by the tail" - presumably getting the attention of Daenerys.  Another interpretation is that they tried to goad or control Daenerys, but the description seems a bit off.  Why would you grasp a dragon's tail if you wanted to goad it to do something?

2) "Burnt our fingers to the bone" - how did they severely hurt themselves by getting her attention/attempting to goad her?  It's true that Griff, Illiro, and Varys have played their hand with the Golden Company, and that now that Tyrion is "on the loose", the existence of Aegon is going to become public knowledge soon, but the situation isn't that bad for them, is it?  Yeah, they played their hand early [from an omniscient perspective's point of view], but I just don't see the consequences being this bad.  

I would be interested if anyone else seriously interpreted Griff's words as having to do with something other than the only interpretation that I could come up with.

[Lykos]

@Varamir Sixskins

1)  In order to handle a snake securely you have to hold it near the head.  I think it´s the same with dragons.  So I took it to mean that Dany is out of their control.

2)  This is a bit harder.  The original plan  was to let Dany / the Dothraki attack Westeros and let Aegon come to the rescue.  This plan has changed when the dragons hatched and Dany acquired the Unsullied, but I´m not shure that this already qualifies as burning the fingers to the bone.  Maybe it refers to the upheaval Dany´s braking of shackles caused in Slavers Bay and Volantis.


spelling Unsullied.

Edited by Lykos, 17 June 2012 - 08:32 PM.

[King Doug]

Varamyr Sixskins, on 14 June 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

Re-reading Dance with Dragon, in the "Lost Lord" chapter, shortly after Jorah abducted Tyrion, unbeknownst to Griff, when Griff is talking to Lemore,

“The plan was to reveal Prince Aegon only when we reached Queen Daenerys,” Lemore was saying.
“That was when we believed the girl was coming west. Our dragon queen has burned that plan to ash, and thanks to that fat fool in Pentos, we have grasped the she-dragon by the tail and burned our fingers to the bone[," said Griff].

What did Griff mean by this?  How did Griff, Illiro,Varys, and the Golden Company "grasp the she-dragon by the tail and burned their fingers to the bone"?

To me, their situation doesn't quite meet the graphical description of this phrase.  

Questions:
1) "Grasping the she-dragon by the tail" - presumably getting the attention of Daenerys.  Another interpretation is that they tried to goad or control Daenerys, but the description seems a bit off.  Why would you grasp a dragon's tail if you wanted to goad it to do something?

2) "Burnt our fingers to the bone" - how did they severely hurt themselves by getting her attention/attempting to goad her?  It's true that Griff, Illiro, and Varys have played their hand with the Golden Company, and that now that Tyrion is "on the loose", the existence of Aegon is going to become public knowledge soon, but the situation isn't that bad for them, is it?  Yeah, they played their hand early [from an omniscient perspective's point of view], but I just don't see the consequences being this bad.  

I would be interested if anyone else seriously interpreted Griff's words as having to do with something other than the only interpretation that I could come up with.

Maybe it also has something to do with when Belwas and Arstan Whitebeard were sent to bring Dany back to Pentos. That was presumably to introduce Dany to Aegon. But as we know she commanded them to change course to get some Unsullied badasses

[Varamyr Sixskins]

@King Doug:

I don't think that's right.  In Dance with Dragons, Daenerys never once thinks about her nephew, fAegon.   I don't see Badass Barristan holding back that crucial bit of info.

[King Doug]

Varamyr Sixskins, on 18 June 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

@King Doug:

I don't think that's right.  In Dance with Dragons, Daenerys never once thinks about her nephew, fAegon.   I don't see Badass Barristan holding back that crucial bit of info.

No, I'm saying that maybe Jon Connington/Griff knew that Illyrio had sent Belwas and Arstan Whitebeard to aid Dany and bring her back to Pentos. Dany wouldn't have known that Aegon was there waiting, and maybe Barristan didn't either. And that was their attempt to grab her by the tail and they got their fingers burnt.

Edited by King Doug, 18 June 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[kissdbyfire]

Varamyr Sixskins, on 18 June 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

@King Doug:

I don't think that's right.  In Dance with Dragons, Daenerys never once thinks about her nephew, fAegon.   I don't see Badass Barristan holding back that crucial bit of info.

She does, once at the very least.

ADwD, Daenerys I:

"A crown should not sit easy on the head. One of her royal forebears had said that, once. Some Aegon, but which one? Five Aegons had ruled the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. There would have been a sixth, but the Usurper’s dogs had murdered her brother’s son when he was still a babe at the breast. If he had lived, I might have married him. Aegon would have been closer to my age than Viserys. Dany had only been conceived when Aegon and his sister were murdered. Their father, her brother Rhaegar, perished even earlier, slain by the Usurper on the Trident."

[weaselontherun]

Could there be at least 2 Jon Snows (Stark) out there? The one everyone seems talk about you know R+L=J and how about a second one. The  one mentioned in ADwD at the end of a Davos chapter about a girl from the  Sisters, a bag of silver and Ned on the run from Vale at the start of Robert's Rebellion?

Edited by weaselontherun, 23 June 2012 - 09:58 AM.

[King Doug]

weaselontherun, on 23 June 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

Could there be at least 2 Jon Snows (Stark) out there? The one everyone seems talk about you know R+L=J and how about a second one. The  one mentioned in ADwD at the end of a Davos chapter about a girl from the  Sisters, a bag of silver and Ned on the run from Vale at the start of Robert's Rebellion?

Are you asking if there is a Jon Snow that is the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna, as well as a Jon Snow that is Ned's bastard?

[Rinso]

I doubt that there are two Jon Snows (I mean, if there are, where is the second one). It's just that the parentage of Jon became very confusing post ADWD. We now have contradicting stories and timelines. It's a mystery wrapped in an enigma.

[weaselontherun]

King Doug, on 23 June 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Are you asking if there is a Jon Snow that is the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna, as well as a Jon Snow that is Ned's bastard?

Yes

[weaselontherun]

Rinso, on 24 June 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

I doubt that there are two Jon Snows (I mean, if there are, where is the second one). It's just that the parentage of Jon became very confusing post ADWD. We now have contradicting stories and timelines. It's a mystery wrapped in an enigma.

Yes it does seem strange doesn't it. Ned brings a child from the  south to Winterfell with all the promises and secrets he gave to Lyanna. There is the discussion of Wylla and the milk brother. Now to top it off there is this story out of the blue about the girl from the Sisters. I'll throw something from left field here now, (JS2)Theiry the turn key at White Harbour

[The Dornishman's Wife]

weaselontherun, on 24 June 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

Yes it does seem strange doesn't it. Ned brings a child from the  south to Winterfell with all the promises and secrets he gave to Lyanna. There is the discussion of Wylla and the milk brother. Now to top it off there is this story out of the blue about the girl from the Sisters. I'll throw something from left field here now, (JS2)Theiry the turn key at White Harbour

Of course it's possible that there's a second Jon Snow, maybe even the turnkey (though he's a tiny bit on the young side). But it seems much more plausible to me that the Sistergirl story is either an unfounded rumour or a smokescreen: At the moment, I don't see where the 2-Jons-hypothesis would explain anything new. Or in other words: If there is a second Jon, then the Sistergirl story makes sense. If there isn't, it also makes sense (people have to gossip something, and even Ned might say something of the sort) - so there's no reason to believe in the existence of a second Jon (yet).

[Fire Eater]

This may sound stupid but when Ser Axell Florent tells Jon "If you've broken her [Val] to saddle, well . . . we are both men of the world, are we not?", was he implying that Jon raped Val and/or destroyed her resistance to being taken advantage by men?