479 replies to this topic

[tyrions sliced nose]

I have a few questions if someone could answer.

1) Why is Dany even want the iron throne besides revenge, their has to be more. Shes the last targaryan and unable to have children. No way to keep the targ blood to rule in the future. I mean whats the point?

2) Jons dream about being covered in black ice armor and with what i assume is lightbringer in his hand. Why did he dream this? Is this something new now that he can see the future?

[Lebronn Jaime]

tyrions sliced nose, on 03 April 2012 - 03:11 AM, said:

I have a few questions if someone could answer.

1) Why is Dany even want the iron throne besides revenge, their has to be more. Shes the last targaryan and unable to have children. No way to keep the targ blood to rule in the future. I mean whats the point?

2) Jons dream about being covered in black ice armor and with what i assume is lightbringer in his hand. Why did he dream this? Is this something new now that he can see the future?

There's nothing approaching a concrete answer to #2 as of ADWD (*shrug* someone was sending him a vision using sorcery). You'd be better off seeking an answer in a discussion thread. There are a lot about Jon to choose from.

As for Dany, she was told from birth that the kingdom was stolen from her family and that her only goal should be to reclaim it. She does actually decide in ASOS to change her priorities and what we get is GRRMs "Meereenese knot". It remains to be seen what will motivate her to return to Westeros, and there are discussion threads to speculate on that as well.

[It Rhymes With Meek]

The Imp With A Pimp Limp, on 02 April 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

It's also worth noting that in some interview or mail GRRM said that nobody has traveled so far east that they reach Westeros from the west instead of the east through the narrow sea

Hey, there could always be a first time!

[Vandalism]

Since I still cannot fucking view my profile and hence cannot keep a check on the more active topics I've posted in, I wanted to ask this question here.

I've just seen episode two. Did Stannis ever have sex with Melisandre in the books? Was it his seed that produced that shadow thing that killed Renly and Penrose?

[Lebronn Jaime]

Vandalism, on 04 April 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

Since I still cannot fucking view my profile and hence cannot keep a check on the more active topics I've posted in, I wanted to ask this question here.

I've just seen episode two. Did Stannis ever have sex with Melisandre in the books? Was it his seed that produced that shadow thing that killed Renly and Penrose?

Foul mouth gets you a one word answer: Yes.

You managed to get indignant about an episode that is not legally available and post about it where you shouldn't, so I'm sure you can manage to find your copies of A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, and/or A Dance with Dragons to confirm this for yourself.

Edited by Lebronn Jamie, 04 April 2012 - 05:22 AM.

[It Rhymes With Meek]

Vandalism, on 04 April 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

Since I still cannot fucking view my profile and hence cannot keep a check on the more active topics I've posted in, I wanted to ask this question here.

I've just seen episode two. Did Stannis ever have sex with Melisandre in the books? Was it his seed that produced that shadow thing that killed Renly and Penrose?

It's heavily hinted at in the books.  E.g. in her POV Melisandre says "With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use."  Presumably she doesn't mean that being around Stannis makes her sleepy...

[Lord of the Night]

Of Asha Greyjoy's forces during the Retreat from Deepwood Motte, who survived Stannis's attack?


LotN

[The Imp With A Pimp Limp]

I think like 8 or 9 survived the attack, Tris was definitely one of them and then other important men from asha's crew.

[Fishay]

Whilst rereading ADwD, in one of Jamie's chapters he goes to Raventree Hall, and the Lord there talks about a huge Weirwood tree with a ton of ravens that they don't know where they came from. This is a blatant referenece/homage to Bloodraven, right? Those are his ravens, and maybe like the center of his weirnet?

Also is it just me or are there a TON of birds talked about throughout chapters? They always seem to pop up whenver people are outside/doing something important. It just seems to me that GRRM specifically pointing out these birds is him pointing out how Bloodraven KNOWS ALL.

Edited by Fishay, 10 April 2012 - 09:27 AM.

[Corvinus]

Fishay, on 10 April 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

Whilst rereading ADwD, in one of Jamie's chapters he goes to Raventree Hall, and the Lord there talks about a huge Weirwood tree with a ton of ravens that they don't know where they came from. This is a blatant referenece/homage to Bloodraven, right? Those are his ravens, and maybe like the center of his weirnet?

Also is it just me or are there a TON of birds talked about throughout chapters? They always seem to pop up whenver people are outside/doing something important. It just seems to me that GRRM specifically pointing out these birds is him pointing out how Bloodraven KNOWS ALL.

"How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? A thousand eyes and one." It's a rhyme from the Dunk & Egg novellas.
Also Bloodraven's mother was a Blackwood, so Bloodraven's association with the tree at Raventreel Hall makes sense.

[jon rr stark]

this has probably been discussed elsewhere. But assuming Aegon is who he claims to be, is he the rightful heir to the Iron Throne ahead of Dany in the eyes at least of those who would accept a re-instated Targ dynasty?

[It Rhymes With Meek]

jon rr stark, on 10 April 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

this has probably been discussed elsewhere. But assuming Aegon is who he claims to be, is he the rightful heir to the Iron Throne ahead of Dany in the eyes at least of those who would accept a re-instated Targ dynasty?

He has a better claim than she does, yeah.  Rhaegar was Aerys's heir, and since he's Rhaegar's son Aegon would be next in line after Rhaegar.

Edited by It Rhymes With Meek, 10 April 2012 - 03:21 PM.

[Not Only But Also]

jon rr stark, on 10 April 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

this has probably been discussed elsewhere. But assuming Aegon is who he claims to be, is he the rightful heir to the Iron Throne ahead of Dany in the eyes at least of those who would accept a re-instated Targ dynasty?

and

It Rhymes With Meek, on 10 April 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

He has a better claim than she does, yeah.  Rhaegar was Aerys's heir, and since he's Rhaegar's son Aegon would be next in line after Rhaegar.

both spark a thought I hadn't had before.  Given, then, that Aegon would have a better claim to the throne (assuming he is who he says he is) than Dany, since he's Rhaegar's son (@ It Rhymes With Meek), then where does that take us if Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark?  In other words, if that is true for Jon, would Aegon have a better claim to the throne than Jon?  Or, do we go back to the premise that if Jon is TPWWP/AA, then that trumps everything, and none of the rest of this matters, in the long run.

Very confusing.

Edited by House of White and White, 10 April 2012 - 09:40 PM.

[Apple Martini]

House of White and White, on 10 April 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

both spark a thought I hadn't had before.  Given, then, that Aegon would have a better claim to the throne (assuming he is who he says he is) than Dany, since he's Rhaegar's son (@ It Rhymes With Meek), then where does that take us if Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark?  In other words, if that is true for Jon, would Aegon have a better claim to the throne than Jon?  Or, do we go back to the premise that if Jon is TPWWP/AA, then that trumps everything, and none of the rest of this matters, in the long run.

Very confusing.

If Aegon is real, then yes, his claim trumps Jon's, because he's older. However, I think he's 99% likely to be fake. I think that Jon's parentage is important in terms of the prophecy, not so much in terms of the Iron Throne. I don't think there will even be an Iron Throne in the end.

[It Rhymes With Meek]

Additionally, for Jon to inherit at all he would have to be not only Rhaegar's son but his legitimate son -- i.e. Rhaegar and Lyanna would have to have married.  Bastards don't inherit.  Well, I suppose it's a little fuzzy for some if the dying king gives you his fancy old sword, but no matter...

[Apple Martini]

It Rhymes With Meek, on 10 April 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

Additionally, for Jon to inherit at all he would have to be not only Rhaegar's son but his legitimate son -- i.e. Rhaegar and Lyanna would have to have married.  Bastards don't inherit.  Well, I suppose it's a little fuzzy for some if the dying king gives you his fancy old sword, but no matter...

Many of us think that Jon is legitimate and that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married polygamously. The Kingsguard would not stay to guard a bastard.

[It Rhymes With Meek]

Apple Martini, on 10 April 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Many of us think that Jon is legitimate and that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married polygamously. The Kingsguard would not stay to guard a bastard.

It is possible.  I'm not a fan of that particular argument for it, though:

Strictly speaking, it was purely the king’s choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. (Barristan Selmy POV)

[Apple Martini]

It Rhymes With Meek, on 10 April 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

It is possible.  I'm not a fan of that particular argument for it, though:

Strictly speaking, it was purely the king’s choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. (Barristan Selmy POV)

Only problem with that is, Rhaegar's orders would have died with him. They would no longer be obligated to guard Lyanna and her child once Rhaegar had died. When Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were killed, their allegiance should have shifted automatically to the next king, who would have been Viserys. But they didn't go to Viserys. Why? Because Viserys wasn't the king.

So the idea that they were only guarding Rhaegar's mistress and bastard doesn't fly at all, because it fails to explain why they stayed after Rhaegar (and Aerys, and Aegon) was dead.

Edited by Apple Martini, 10 April 2012 - 10:53 PM.

[It Rhymes With Meek]

In your opinion Arthur Dayne would stop defending an otherwise defenseless woman and baby that he had sworn to Rhaegar to protect the instant that Rhaegar died -- even if they were still in deadly danger? That seems implausible to me.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

It Rhymes With Meek, on 10 April 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

In your opinion Arthur Dayne would stop defending an otherwise defenseless woman and baby that he had sworn to Rhaegar to protect the instant that Rhaegar died -- even if they were still in deadly danger? That seems implausible to me.

I also think that while Jon being legitimate would be a good explanation for the tenacity of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, it's not the only explanation. They could as well have realized their war was lost and wanted to go out in a bang, or felt the obligation to honour Rhaegar's orders even after his death (which may be something he explicitely included).