Let's Talk About The Lannisters

[Winter's Knight]

Lets talk about the Lannister family. They're rich, they're powerful and they are certainly some of the most polarising characters in the readerverse.

They are also the most difficult to discuss in isolation from their family-as anyone who's seen a Jamiecentric thread dissolve into an analysis of Cersei's crimes knows.

To get the ball going I'd like to repost the following post by another bastard on the Jamie's Redemption thread.

In addition to being the most hate-worthy and (by Nuremburg standards at least) the most blame-worthy character in the novels - in terms of the total amount of suffering and death he directly caused and contributed to; as the guy who casually authorized mass rape, murder and torture in order to shore up or increase his own status and power, as opposed to the lowly sadists who implemented these policies hands-on; without whom Gregor Clegane, Amory Loarch and Ramsay Bolton's gangs would have just been petty thugs likely to be strung up sooner or later - Tywin may have turned all three of his children into complete psychological wrecks for life (barring some lengthy process of intentional and probably very painful rehabilitation) more than any other parent I can think of offhand, in a field with some pretty stiff competition.

Despite being relatively new to this forum, I see people pretty frequently taking gratuitous or just plain ugly shots at one of the Lannister siblings on the behalf of another - as opposed to fair or enlightening critiques of one character or another, or their relationships - which is exactly what they all do to each other in the novels (by this point), which is exactly how Tywin trained them to think, feel and act toward perceived rivals or enemies or anyone who didn't grant them the "respect" they felt they deserved. They were all terrified of him while he was alive, yet all three consciously and/or unconsciously strive to emulate his sociopathic personality so hard that it's really just embarrassing, and sad. Yes, yes, adults are responsible for their own actions despite lousy upbringings, etc., but IMO Tywin really does deserve some kind of overachiever award for turning his children into twisted replicas of what they might have been otherwise. And for bonus points, he may have accomplished it without actually laying a hand on any of them! How many parents could manage that?

That's my take on the neverending Lannister family drama, anyway.

(I'm excluding from "most hateworthy" and "most blameworthy" everyone raised in an intrinsically sociopathic culture, like the Iron Islanders, the Dothraki, or the ruling classes of Slaver's Bay.)

[The Storm Queen]

I adore the Lannisters in all their dysfunctional glory.

I agree with the OP that Tywin is one of the most blame-worthy characters in the novels. Another poster compared him to Beria which to me is a rather apt comparison. Concerning Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion I really feel that Tywin´s parenting methods messed them up big time and strengthened their worst character traits: With Tyrion it is misogyny, with Cersei it is regarding others as inferior/potential enemies and with Jaime it is moral relativism/the end justifies the means thinking. All silbling also share a certain lack of empathy in varying degrees.

[Catastrophe]

Even more simply than that, he raised all three of his children to glorify "strength" (power, the use of intimidation and fear) and despise "weakness" (morality and empathy). They became monsters because that's exactly what he wanted them to be; the only problem (from his point of view) was that they lacked his foresight, patience, and intelligence.

[Chalais]

Even more simply than that, he raised all three of his children to glorify "strength" (power, the use of intimidation and fear) and despise "weakness" (morality and empathy). They became monsters because that's exactly what he wanted them to be; the only problem (from his point of view) was that they lacked his foresight, patience, and intelligence.

Yes, but the problem is compounded by the fact that it's Tyrion who has his father's foresight, patience, and intelligence, while the Golden Children keep chugging along like two bowling balls looking for the gutter.

[Queen Cersei I]

Cersei and Tyrion, in books one through three, are actually more alike than Tyrion and Jaime.

Also-- though Cersei is by far the most villainized and demonized character in these books, Tyrion is clearly more or less the author's avatar who is glorified and morally indulged excused at every turn.

Tyrion is clearly supposed to be a hero, not a villain. I'd be shocked if he ever ends up being held responsible for killing Shae or raping the two unnamed sex slaves whores :rolleyes: in ADWD. GRRM apparently found the first of these girls so insignificant and worthless so as not even to bother telling us whether or not Tyrion opted to make good on his clear promise to rape her after he was done eating dinner.

[Chalais]

You know Queen Cersei I, after reading your posts I have to admit that I've given Cersei Lannister a serious rethink in my head, I used to go with the flow of "she's a stupid whore who deserves to die in horrible pain". But now I mostly agree with you, she's gotten a raw deal all her life, is it a wonder she's fucked up?

And Tyrion has gotten WAY too many free passes, but the end I think he'll get will involve being killed by Tysha's bastard son, who just happens to have Tyrion's miss-matched eyes.

[Fire Eater]

Even more simply than that, he raised all three of his children to glorify "strength" (power, the use of intimidation and fear) and despise "weakness" (morality and empathy). They became monsters because that's exactly what he wanted them to be; the only problem (from his point of view) was that they lacked his foresight, patience, and intelligence.

True, Tywin had a habit of making himself blind to truths he did not wish to see, such as Tyrion's potential and the extent of Jaime and Cersei's relationship. What he failed to see is that monsters are feared, but if given the opportunity to be rid of them, people will seize it. With the exception of the Boltons and Lady Dustin, the Starks' men are willing to risk their lives just to rescue Ned's daughter in what looks like a lost cause out of love, for lack of a better term, for the Starks. While people who are ruled by fear won't go that far, they'll just leave you at the curb.

Cersei and Tyrion, in books one through three, are actually more alike than Tyrion and Jaime.

Also-- though Cersei is by far the most villainized and demonized character in these books, Tyrion is clearly more or less the author's avatar who is glorified and morally indulged excused at every turn.

Tyrion is clearly supposed to be a hero, not a villain. I'd be shocked if he ever ends up being held responsible for killing Shae or raping the two unnamed sex slaves whores in ADWD. GRRM apparently found the first of these girls so insignificant and worthless so as not even to bother telling us whether or not Tyrion opted to make good on his clear promise to rape her after he was done eating dinner.

Technically, it wasn't rape, the women didn't refuse, IIRC, Illyrio's bed slave she said "Will my lord want me after he has eaten?" I know Tyrion is one of the morally grey characters, he has killed Shae and his father. But unlike Cersei, he does feel some compassion and sympathy for others like Jon Snow and Penny.

[Dark Rider]

Tywin is the polar opposite of his Father and once you understand the history of his Father you understand Tywin. Tywin was deeply embarassed of his Father who was openly mocked at Court, easily swayed by common women, and just projected weakness. Tywin swore to never project weakness and regimented his life around being everything his Father was not. Whereas I imagine his Father was kind and had a good heart Tywin sees such things as weakness so he's resolved to be ruthless in achieving whatever ends he sets by whatever means necessary. For Tywin his whole life is strengthening his house, which his Father weakened at least in his opinion. That's why Tywin was so mature when he was young and able to be such a good Hand.

Jamie, Tyrion, and Cersei all suffer from deep depression issues. Jamie is presented his dream of being in the King's Guard only to find himself more a pawn of the Mad King and then forced to choose between honoring his father by killing a tyrannt or keeping his oath by protecting one. Jamie's whole world and sense of direction is thrown off by that event and he's never fully recovered. Cersei finds herself a pawn from birth being paraded around by her Father like some horse for sale. She ends up in a loveless marriage for years upon years crushing every image she had as a child about what life would be like. Tyrion never has his Father's love even for one single second of his entire life and he so desperately wants that until he has to come to accept he never can have it.

Tywin is selfish. He claims what he does is for the glory of his house, but it's not it's to prove to himself over and over that he's not his Father.

[Winter's Knight]

True, Tywin had a habit of making himself to truths he did not wish to see, such as Tyrion's potential and the extent of Jaime and Cersei's relationship. What he failed to see is that monsters are feared, but if given the opportunity to be rid of you, they'll seize it. While see, with the exception of the Boltons and Lady Dustin, the Starks men are willing to risk their lives just to rescue Ned's daughter in what looks like a lost cause out of love, for lack of a better term, for the Starks. While people who are ruled by fear won't go that far, they'll just leave you at the curb.

Technically, it wasn't rape, the women didn't refuse, IIRC, Illyrio's bed slave she said "Will my lord want me after he has eaten?" I know Tyrion is one of the morally grey characters, he has killed Shae and his father. But unlike Cersei, he does feel some compassion and sympathy for others like Jon Snow and Penny.

The fact that he does feel compassion makes his lack of it seem that much worse.

He is capable of feeling empathy and still does some awful things.

[Catastrophe]

True, Tywin had a habit of making himself to truths he did not wish to see, such as Tyrion's potential and the extent of Jaime and Cersei's relationship. What he failed to see is that monsters are feared, but if given the opportunity to be rid of you, they'll seize it. While see, with the exception of the Boltons and Lady Dustin, the Starks men are willing to risk their lives just to rescue Ned's daughter in what looks like a lost cause out of love, for lack of a better term, for the Starks. While people who are ruled by fear won't go that far, they'll just leave you at the curb.

And here you've touched upon what I believe to be one of the major themes of the series, and the reason why I don't think ASoIaF is quite as pessimistic as it first seems. Being honorable and doing the right thing might cost you a lot, but in the long run it pays off, while using intimidation and deceit to accomplish your goals has a nasty tendency to backfire. I'm certain that GRRM deliberately intended to contrast Ned and Tywin's legacies, to highlight exactly that point.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Cersei and Tyrion, in books one through three, are actually more alike than Tyrion and Jaime.

Also-- though Cersei is by far the most villainized and demonized character in these books, Tyrion is clearly more or less the author's avatar who is glorified and morally indulged excused at every turn.

Tyrion is clearly supposed to be a hero, not a villain. I'd be shocked if he ever ends up being held responsible for killing Shae or raping the two unnamed sex slaves whores :rolleyes: in ADWD. GRRM apparently found the first of these girls so insignificant and worthless so as not even to bother telling us whether or not Tyrion opted to make good on his clear promise to rape her after he was done eating dinner.

Those are pretty negative, unfair and serious assumptions you make here about GRRM.

Cersei and Tyrion, in books one through three, are actually more alike than Tyrion and Jaime.

Cersei and Tyrion aren't that much alike. Nor is Tyrion and Jaime, they have some similarities but also significant differences.

Also-- though Cersei is by far the most villainized and demonized character in these books, Tyrion is clearly more or less the author's avatar who is glorified and morally indulged excused at every turn.

Again false.

Cersei is not the most demonized and villanized character by far in these books at all. Ramsay, Gregor, Aerys, hell Joffrey might even get less sympathy from GRRM, Craster and so on. She is one the most evil characters who got much attention but among the most evil group GRRM has given her more sympathy than other characters by noting her relationship and abuse from Robert, having love for her kids, the sexism of Westeros and her position there, the prophecy, how her father treated her, losing her son and father, hell there is even the walk of shame that happened not because GRRM is sexist but for various reasons including making Cersei more sympathetic. She is a villain of course but being the one more vilified by far? Nope.

Tyrion is clearly more or less the author's avatar who is glorified and morally indulged excused at every turn.

One really wonders how on earth would a person even reach those conclusions about the author. No he is not glorified and morally indulged at every turn. On the contrary his weakness of personality are noted in the books and his storyline and character has taken a turn from the worse. GRRM who is a good writer and is thank god the one who is witting these books doesn't have Tyrion character just for him to be his avatar. GRRM is the one writing Tyrion's actions including some vile ones for us to judge. The fact that he doesn't give what you think is acceptable condemnation to those actions does not mean that they are approved or that the audience should not think about what Tyrion has done and whether it is right or wrong. Nor does it mean that GRRM has suddenly become someone who views things so awfully simplistically to have Tyrion as his heroic avatar. Stop making unsubstantiated and insulting assumptions about the author please.

Also, I am still waiting for you to bring a source of GRRM saying that "Daenerys and Cersei's rule are the two ways that women rule." You have repeatedly stated that GRRM has said that and I want to see proof.

Tyrion is clearly supposed to be a hero, not a villain.

False. He is not a hero, after the death of Shae he has taken a more villainous turn but I wouldn't classify him a villain either. What is up with this black and white thinking and baseless assumptions that this author of this very grey series is all about black and white categorizations?

[Independent George]

I hate Tywin for all the horrible things he'd done, but I can't help but think he was unquestionably the best Hand, and would have been the best King, of any of the characters we've met thus far.

He's a horrible human being, but he's one hell of a leader. As much as we wish for it to be otherwise, those two traits very rarely occur in the same person - the megalomania required for leadership is often at odds with the humility required to be a good person.

[Fire Eater]

Tywin is the polar opposite of his Father and once you understand the history of his Father you understand Tywin. Tywin was deeply embarassed of his Father who was openly mocked at Court, easily swayed by common women, and just projected weakness. Tywin swore to never project weakness and regimented his life around being everything his Father was not. Whereas I imagine his Father was kind and had a good heart Tywin sees such things as weakness so he's resolved to be ruthless in achieving whatever ends he sets by whatever means necessary. For Tywin his whole life is strengthening his house, which his Father weakened at least in his opinion. That's why Tywin was so mature when he was young and able to be such a good Hand.

Jamie, Tyrion, and Cersei all suffer from deep depression issues. Jamie is presented his dream of being in the King's Guard only to find himself more a pawn of the Mad King and then forced to choose between honoring his father by killing a tyrannt or keeping his oath by protecting one. Jamie's whole world and sense of direction is thrown off by that event and he's never fully recovered. Cersei finds herself a pawn from birth being paraded around by her Father like some horse for sale. She ends up in a loveless marriage for years upon years crushing every image she had as a child about what life would be like. Tyrion never has his Father's love even for one single second of his entire life and he so desperately wants that until he has to come to accept he never can have it.

Tywin is selfish. He claims what he does is for the glory of his house, but it's not it's to prove to himself over and over that he's not his Father.

True, Tywin's story resembles Okonkwo's from Things Fall Apart. Okonkwo is embarrassed by his father to the point he becomes the opposite of everything his father was; what Okonkwo, like Tywin, didn't realize is that his father didn't do everything wrong, there some things his father did right. Those things their fathers did right, their sons did wrong, and that's what causes their downfall.

Tywin is selfish, but he hides behind "everything I'm doing, I'm doing for my family." He is the head of House Lannister, so he is the family, it's always about what he wants, never asking his family members what they want. When Jaime's wants conflicted with Tywin's, Tywin responded by disowning him.

[Nightfyre]

Lannisters are jerks

[kephv]

Tyrion is clearly supposed to be a hero, not a villain.

It's not as clear cut as that. Tyrion blurs the lines between hero and villian, and his actions are probably some of the most disputed among the readership (judging form these forums anyway).

I'd be shocked if he ever ends up being held responsible for killing Shae or raping the two unnamed sex slaves whores :rolleyes: in ADWD.

As would I, especially since they're completely insignificant as far as anyone in the story is concerned. Also, it's infeasible that Tyrion would be held accountable for "raping" the sex slaves, considering he paid her and no one would view that as a crime.

and would have been the best King, of any of the characters we've met thus far.

He's definitely capable of running things but I wouldn't go that far. He's far too ruthless to have been an effective king. Him being unchecked, I could see him doing some serious damage to anyone or house that slighted him (or even perceived to) in the least or even went against his will.

[brena]

Some of the reasons why I think the Lannisters are so villified.

- We mostly get Stark POV at the beginning, except for Tyrion who doesn't do much until later on in the book, and doesn't do much harm until later on, IIRC. By the time we get Cercei and Jaime POVs, and the conflict between Starks and Lannisters explode, the Starks are firmly established as the "good guys", mostly because most of them are children, and the Lannisters are their "bad guys".

- By that time, the Starks are also shown to have values that are more "likeable" to readers: honor, duty, family, justice, humility. However, the Lannisters value power, they are filthy rich, and while wanting respect is noble, they tend to go after with fear rather then love.

- Their motivations are given way later in the serie, after they're already established characters and the readers' opinion is made.

I have a theory about the common bias giving more sympathy to Tyron and Jaime then Cercei. While I think that a majority of readers being men accounts for a part of it, and that tjhe unfortunate-but-common overly harsh judgement of women toward other women also plays a significant part, I think it might be because they amuse the readers rather then their overall personality.

- Tyron delivers lots of amusing insults and witty comments, he ridicules a lot of characters we don't particularly like, and even when he mocks characters we do like, it's generaly amusing enough to make the reader laugh. He also often make derogatory about himself more often then anyone else. (edit: and Peter Dinklage's performance, for those who saw the TV show before getting to far in the books)

- Jaime cynical and sarcastic thoughts are kinda funny to read. He also mocks people left and right, and later on, even himself. At that point, him pushing a kid out a window is very far away and we know the kid is "fine" (that doesn't excuse it), and I think even a reader who disliked Jaime may start liking him just because he brings himself down so much.

- Cercei is not funny. She doesn't ridicule herself.

[brena]

When Jaime's wants conflicted with Tywin's, Tywin responded by disowning him.

Well, when Jaime got what he wanted (we're talking about the Kingsguard cloak?), he could no longer inherit.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Lets talk about the Lannister family. They're rich, they're powerful and they are certainly some of the most polarising characters in the readerverse.

They are also the most difficult to discuss in isolation from their family-as anyone who's seen a Jamiecentric thread dissolve into an analysis of Cersei's crimes knows.

To get the ball going I'd like to repost the following post by another bastard on the Jamie's Redemption thread.

There's nothing sociopathic about Tywin. He does what's necessary to advance his goals. The problem is he's incompetent at a rearing his children. He over compensates for the weakness he saw in his own father and isn't sufficiently nurturing with his own children. As a result he drives them away and causes them to take unnecessary risks in order gain his approval through achievement.

[Fire Eater]

Well, when Jaime got what he wanted (we're talking about the Kingsguard cloak?), he could no longer inherit.

I mean in ASoS, when Tywin offers Jaime to leave the Kingsguard and marry Margaery Tyrell. Jaime after his experience with Brienne and losing his hand, says he wants to remain a member of the Kingsguard to which Tywin responds "You're not my son."

[trins]

Lannisters are jerks

well put my friend :)