Let's Talk About The Lannisters

[Queen Cersei I]

I have to disagree. She makes several profound blunders in her convos with Tyrion - a couple of times she misses a serious warning when he is concerned with her safety

She is young, naive, and uneducated, but, I would argue, fairly perceptive and bright. For instance, when she comes across Varys, who is so well disguised (in terms of smell, dress, movement, etc.) Tyrion does not recognize him, but Shae does. Consider the following scene:

“A whiff of something rank made him turn his head. Shae stood in the door behind him, dressed in the silvery robe he’d given her. I loved a maid as white as winter, with moonglow in her hair. Behind her stood one of the begging brothers, a portly man in filthy patched robes, his bare feet crusty with dirt, a bowl hung about his neck on a leather thong where a septon would have worn a crystal. Rhe smell of him would have gagged a rat.

“Lord Varys has come to see you,” Shae announced.

The begging brother blinked at her, astonished. Tyrion laughed. “To be sure. How is it you knew him when I didn’t?”

She shrugged. “Its still him. Only dressed different.”

“A different look, a different smell, a different way of walking,” said Tyrion. “Most men would be deceived.”

“And most women, maybe. But not whores. A whore learns to see the man, not his garb, or turns up dead in an ally.”

She is also fairly quick and witty in her conversation, best demonstrated on the night whne she first meets Tyrion. Tyrion himself recognizes this quality when he reflects "Eighteen, Tyrion thought. Eighteen, and a whore, but quick of wit..."

I have to disagree. She makes several profound blunders in her convos with Tyrion - a couple of times she misses a serious warning when he is concerned with her safety and she apparently has a very poor grasp of Tyrion's personality (very clear in the final scene when she chooses a totally wrong approach, but even before, e.g. when she calls Tyrion a coward for not being able to stand up to his father - that's something a person of her social status would never dare towards a Lord's son, but here she overestimates his infatuation with her, and the fact that he is a dwarf definitely contributes, as well)

Oh yeah, the impudence! :rolleyes: Seriously, I think it was merely Tyrion's personal decency and security that Shae overestimated here. She mocks him and gets angry with him like many of us have done with our significant others during an argument. He then slaps her to remind her of her place.

Though, personally, I guess Shae was silly to think Tyrion had any affection or regard for her as a human being-- rather than just a pretty face and a tight little body. Since he says stuff like the following:

And yet she still seemed restive. She wanted to be with him more, she told him; she wanted to serve him and help him. “You help me most here, between the sheets,” he told her

What a guy.

I'd really want to know, though, if the "giant of Lannister" part was something she was ordered to say, or if it was her own personal contribution.

Who the hell cares? All she did with that was personally insult Tyrion. Wounding delicate male pride is not a crime, as far as I remember. And yet, when justifying Tyrion's murder of Shae, this is what people obsess over, far more than the perjury.

Also, it is not clear to what extent was her testimony forced - she tells Tyrion that she was made to, but Cersei recalls making a deal. Cersei's idea of "deal" may well include threats but since Shae demanded her jewels which she had been promised, my impression is that she was bribed into the testimony, rather than coerced.

Cersei's reflections in AFFC makes it nearly certain that Shae was not threatened by came willingly. She is guilty of perjury, and deserves a fair trial and a sentencing that takes everything in the complex situation into account. But she did not deserve to be slowly strangled by a metal chain.

Her being "not totally innocent" is a moot point.

[Ygrain]

She is young, naive, and uneducated, but, I would argue, fairly perceptive and bright. For instance, when she comes across Varys, who is so well disguised (in terms of smell, dress, movement, etc.) Tyrion does not recognize him, but Shae does.

I probably should have made clear that I don’t think she is simple-minded; I was rather pointing out that in some respects, her grasp of situation has severe limitations. Being perceptive and witty doesn’t mean that she can analyse the situation correctly and make the correct conclusions. Note how she totally missed the undertone in the conversation between Varys and Tyrion.

Oh yeah, the impudence! :rolleyes:Seriously, I think it was merely Tyrion's personal decency and security that Shae overestimated here. She mocks him and gets angry with him like many of us have done with our significant others during an argument. He then slaps her to remind her of her place.

The thing is, he is not merely her significant other. Whether we like it or not, he is a bloody lordling, and her employer. Theirs is not a relationship of two equal human beings, and in their social context, she did cross a boundary. If I offend my employer, there will be repercussions, as well, and I’ll be an idiot to put my foot in my mouth.

What a guy.

If I hire a guy to take care of my garden, I want him to stick to the gardening and not do the dishes. If I hired a gigolo…

Who the hell cares? All she did with that was personally insult Tyrion. Wounding delicate male pride is not a crime, as far as I remember. And yet, when justifying Tyrion's murder of Shae, this is what people obsess over, far more than the perjury.

Because it was a low blow where it hurt most? I’m not really surprised that many people value the sense of fair play over the lawbook.

Cersei's reflections in AFFC makes it nearly certain that Shae was not threatened by came willingly. She is guilty of perjury, and deserves a fair trial and a sentencing that takes everything in the complex situation into account. But she did not deserve to be slowly strangled by a metal chain.

There is a way to strangle someone quickly?

Her being "not totally innocent" is a moot point.

That was my response to a poster who portrayed her as a mere victim of circumstances, if I read him correctly.

[PSU]

Tyrion killed Shae because she lied to get him killed and then started sleeping with his father. Tyrion obviously isn't perfect, but at the very least I think its pretty clear that he's a type of anti hero. I also don't think you can apply modern justice principles to the world GRRM has painted.

[Ghost714]

In the world of aSoIaF, I dont blame Tyrion for having Symon killed. It's the singers fault for getting above himself, and thinking he could threaten someone of Tyrion's station, the dude played with fire, and simply got burned. This whole talk of, "Tyrion should have just let him play in the wedding", is ridiculous. I would like to point out the lesson Littlefinger teaches Sansa, after Dontos brought Sansa to Littlefinger. Sansa doesn't know why Littlefinger had Dontos killed, and Littlefinger explains that, 10,000 dragons will buy a mans silence for a time, but a well placed quarrel will buy a mans silence for life. Littlefinger explains further that, Dontos sold Sansa once, and after he drunk away all that gold, he would do it again, and Littlefinger said killing Dontos was the only way to guarantee Sansa's safety.

I believe, without a doubt, that the same situation applys to Symon Silver Tongue, had Tyrion allowed Stuped Tounge to blackmail him, then he would have done it again.

And yes, Tyrion did not introduce Symon to Shae, Symon was just there one night. Tyrion gave Symon a chance that night to live, he made it clear that there would be repercussions, if Symon forgot his place. No Tyrion didn't flat out say I will kill you etc, but he heavily implied that the singer was on thin ice, and that he better be careful. So, in my most humbled opinion, the singer killed himself.

As to the Shae thing, about her testimony at Tyrions trial. Shae was totally using that situation for further gain. At most Cersei might have found out about Tyrion's relationship to Shae, through Varys, so I could understand Shae not trying to claim that was false, but there was no way for Cersei to have known about all of their sex sessions. Shae could have testified to their relationship, but she didn't have to publicly humiliate Tyrion the way she did. Even "if" Cersei commanded Shae to "sell the act", while saying a bunch of outlandish stuff, Shae didn't have to make such a good mummers show out of it. So no, Shae totally went above and beyond what was neccisary to save herself. I actually believe that Shae came to Cersei, with her own proposal. I really don't think Varys would give Shae to the Cersei, I mean he already provided enough "info" against Tyrion, for Cersei during the trial.

Do I think Shae was the innocent victim? No.

Do I hate Tyrion for what he did to Shae? No.

Do I think Tyrion was wrong to kill Shae? Kinda

I can't say that I wouldn't have done the same thing, if I were in the exact same position as Tyrion.

[Bear Grylls of Skagos]

Symond had to die. Symond would have blackmailed the shit out of Tyrion ,had he let him live and then he would have gone to Lord Tywin and would have sold Tyrion's secrets.

Shae's murder was wrong and there was no need for it. It was done in hate and there is no justifying it. It can't be "kinda" wrong. It was wrong.

Tywin got what he asked for.

As for Jaime, he got flak from all these honourable fools for doing the right thing. I know killing Aerys was a bit unecessary but he was a 15 year old boy and probably shit scared after hearing the Aerys's plan to burn his father and uncle. Getting flak for all these years made him the arrogant fool that he was at the start of the series.

Pushing Bran was wrong too but that was his only option.Robert would have killed his sons and daughter had he not done that.

[PSU]

Symond had to die. Symond would have blackmailed the shit out of Tyrion ,had he let him live and then he would have gone to Lord Tywin and would have sold Tyrion's secrets.

Shae's murder was wrong and there was no need for it. It was done in hate and there is no justifying it. It can't be "kinda" wrong. It was wrong.

Tywin got what he asked for.

As for Jaime, he got flak from all these honourable fools for doing the right thing. I know killing Aerys was a bit unecessary but he was a 15 year old boy and probably shit scared after hearing the Aerys's plan to burn his father and uncle. Getting flak for all these years made him the arrogant fool that he was at the start of the series.

Pushing Bran was wrong too but that was his only option.Robert would have killed his sons and daughter had he not done that.

In my opinion, Shae got what was coming to her. She sold out Tyrion when his life was on the line for her own gain. By aligning herself with Cersei she put her self in the game of thrones... and didn't win.

[Revan Baratheon]

Symond had to die. Symond would have blackmailed the shit out of Tyrion ,had he let him live and then he would have gone to Lord Tywin and would have sold Tyrion's secrets.

Shae's murder was wrong and there was no

need for it. It was done in hate and there is no

justifying it. It can't be "kinda" wrong. It was wrong.

Tywin got what he asked for.

As for Jaime, he got flak from all these honourable fools for doing the right thing. I know killing Aerys was a bit unecessary but he was a

15 year old boy and probably shit scared after hearing the Aerys's plan to burn his father and uncle.Pushing Bran was wrong too but that was his only option.Robert would have killed his sons and daughter had he not done that.

I mostly agree with you,however i have bolded the parts where i disagree.

So killing a whore who gave false testimony against you is wrong but killing your own father who spared your life by planning to send you to the wall,despite the overwhelming evidence against you is not?And btw Tyrion also killed Tywin out of hate,both tywin and shae had mentally harmed tyrion,either they both deserved to snuff it,or neither did.

[The Sleeper]

I have to agree that out of Tywin's brood Jaime is the odd one out. Jaime is the one who had what the other two wanted and threw it out the window. And that is just one of the parallels between Cersei and Tyrion.

They both have been denied access to power they would otherwise have due to Cersei being a woman and Tyrion being a dwarf. Instead Tyrion is disregarded whnever possible and Cersei is used as a commodity.

Due to this both have developed a considerable amount of resentment which largely informs their character.

Both tend to attribute every problem they encounter to their respective conditions. Though they are both right to some extent, they both tend to blow it out of proportion.

They are both vindictive and tend to lash out disproportionately when they feel slighted.

They both share the entitled Lannister outlook on other people.

All of these come back to Tywin. Thes character traits reflect the treatment they received in Tywins hands with whom both are alike and whom both are trying to emulate. At their core what both want most desperately out of life is daddy's approval.

I think this is the point of Tyrion's double murder. In one fell swoop he destroyed his hopes and dreams after a long and downward spiral of disillusionment.

Edit: I think what Cersei and Tyrion want more than power, or what they rather perceive as power, is the defference people showed their father. Their main difference is that Tyrion is aware that Tywin compromised when he needed to; Cersei is not.

[Bear Grylls of Skagos]

I mostly agree with you,however i have bolded the parts where i disagree.

So killing a whore who gave false testimony against you is wrong but killing your own father who spared your life by planning to send you to the wall,despite the overwhelming evidence against you is not?And btw Tyrion also killed Tywin out of hate,both tywin and shae had mentally harmed tyrion,either they both deserved to snuff it,or neither did.

Tywin was too big an asshole. The way he mocked him and what he did to Tysha was unforgivable. Had it been Jaime instead of Tyrion he wouldn't have waited all these years. He would have shoved a blade up Tywin's ass the moment first soldier put himself into Jaime's lover.Tyrion was a coward and a kid to not to do anything all these years.And there is no way in hell he would sent Tyrion to the wall for murdering a king.

Shae was a helpless whore and had no choice but to give those statements against Tyrion. Probably Varys told Cersei about her to get Tyrion mad enough to do something stupid.

[Ghost714]

Tywin was too big an asshole. The way he mocked him and what he did to Tysha was unforgivable. Had it been Jaime instead of Tyrion he wouldn't have waited all these years. He would have shoved a blade up Tywin's ass the moment first soldier put himself into Jaime's lover.Tyrion was a coward and a kid to not to do anything all these years.And there is no way in hell he would sent Tyrion to the wall for murdering a king.

Shae was a helpless whore and had no choice but to give those statements against Tyrion. Probably Varys told Cersei about her to get Tyrion mad enough to do something stupid.

Tyrion didn't know Tysha wasn't an actual whore, until Jaime told him when he let him out of the Blackcell, so please tell me how Tyrion was a "coward" for not having killed Tywin sooner? Because up until when Jaime let Tyrion out, Tyrion believed that Tysha was a whore, so there wasn't much reason to kill Tywin. I am not saying what Tywin did was ok, even if Tysha was a whore, but I don't think it was enough reason for Tyrion to kill Tywin. Now what Tywin did to Tysha, knowing she wasn't a whore, that's plenty of reason for Tyrion to kill Tywin, but Tyrion didnt know that up until the point where he actually killed Tywin.

(poor Tysha, can you imagine that? She was just a nice little small folk girl, and Tywin had her gangraped, while the person she thought loved her watched.... Makes me want to kill Tywin myself just thinking about it.)

Varys knew about Shae and Tyrion's relationship, but it's not like Shae had to go all out with the water works, and the humiliation. To be honest, like I said in my last post, and like others have said, it seems that Shae went to Cersei on her own. I highly doubt that Varys would throw Shae under the bus like that, what's the point? It's not like Shae's testimony was required to prove Tyrion guilty, there was literally dozens of witnesses against Tyrion. Shae saw, or heard that Tyrion was going down, so she wanted to jump on and get her share of the bennifits. Why exactly would Varys be trying to get Tyrion to do something stupid? Again that wasn't neccisary to convict Tyrion, and Varys makes it plane to Tyrion that he never meant to screw him, but he had to give Cersei something, or she would have gotten rid of him(Varys).

But even if your right, and Shae was just a "helpless whore", she still didn't need to go overboard. Shae could have appeased Cersei with a simple testimony of the truth, but instead she gave a Hollywood like performance, and went obove and beyond what was neccisary to save her own skin.

That's why I think it is more than obvious that Shae was acting on her own free will, and that she volunteered to testify, for how ever much money she could get from Cersei.

Edit. I do agree with you though, that Tywin wasn't going to send Tyrion to the Wall, that was just something he tried to say to reason with Tyrion.

[The Storm Queen]

I have to agree that out of Tywin's brood Jaime is the odd one out. Jaime is the one who had what the other two wanted and threw it out the window. And that is just one of the parallels between Cersei and Tyrion.

They both have been denied access to power they would otherwise have due to Cersei being a woman and Tyrion being a dwarf. Instead Tyrion is disregarded whnever possible and Cersei is used as a commodity.

Due to this both have developed a considerable amount of resentment which largely informs their character.

Both tend to attribute every problem they encounter to their respective conditions. Though they are both right to some extent, they both tend to blow it out of proportion.

They are both vindictive and tend to lash out disproportionately when they feel slighted.

They both share the entitled Lannister outlook on other people.

All of these come back to Tywin. Thes character traits reflect the treatment they received in Tywins hands with whom both are alike and whom both are trying to emulate. At their core what both want most desperately out of life is daddy's approval.

I think this is the point of Tyrion's double murder. In one fell swoop he destroyed his hopes and dreams after a long and downward spiral of disillusionment.

Edit: I think what Cersei and Tyrion want more than power, or what they rather perceive as power, is the defference people showed their father. Their main difference is that Tyrion is aware that Tywin compromised when he needed to; Cersei is not.

This is a very apt comparison between Cersei and Tyrion. It is amusing that both also mirror Tywin´s worst traits: Tyrion and his misogyny and cersei with her obsession over Lannister superiority / mistrust towards others. Ironically this also leads both to despise each other and cling to Jaime.

One addition to your last sentence: I think even here Cersei can get a pass: While Tywin taught Tyrion a lot about ruling (as Tyrion often recalls) he completly lacked to do the same with Cersei due to her gender. This also makes me questioning Tywin´s marriage with Joanna. How is it possible that a sexist man like Tywin was ruled by his wife? I´d really like to know more about this marriage.

[The Sleeper]

I don't see Tywin taking an active hand in the education of any of his children. He was too busy being the Hand afterall. Jaime was dispatced to be a paige and a squire at a young age, while Cersei lorded over people at Casterly Rock and Tyrion was left to his own devices. I attribute Cersei's and Turion's differences in perspective in Cersei's ability to command obedience solely because of her station while Tyrion had to work for any kind of influence making him more aware of other people's interests and motives. Also Cersei never learned to fear anything or anyone (except her father) and Tyrion had a more inquisitive nature.

You can call Tyrion's mistrust and fear of women because of the power they have over him (something he is aware of but invariably succumbs to) misogyny, but I think it differs from Tywin's attitude, who barely acknowledges women as thinking entities and in need of smiting when they overstep the boundaries he has set for them in his scheme of things. Tyrion's attitude stems from fellings of personal betrayal (justified or not) and insecurity. Tywin seems to be a firm believer in the prevailing view of his society in which women have their particular place wtih added pathos due to his father's mistress, more along the lines of Randyl Tarly and Stannis.

[Woman of War]

Jamie, Tyrion, and Cersei all suffer from deep depression issues. Jamie is presented his dream of being in the King's Guard only to find himself more a pawn of the Mad King and then forced to choose between honoring his father by killing a tyrannt or keeping his oath by protecting one. Jamie's whole world and sense of direction is thrown off by that event and he's never fully recovered. Cersei finds herself a pawn from birth being paraded around by her Father like some horse for sale. She ends up in a loveless marriage for years upon years crushing every image she had as a child about what life would be like. Tyrion never has his Father's love even for one single second of his entire life and he so desperately wants that until he has to come to accept he never can have it.

Agree

Before Tyrion was born Tywin had about everything he valued: He had restaured his house's pride in the sense what pride meant to him, he had a beautiful trophy wife and two most perfect children that were valuable assets on the market for alliance marriages into the biggest houses and most influential positions.

And then came that misshappen monstrosity that killed his own mother.

This little monster made Tywin fallible again, suddenly something had happened to the great lord that might have touched his most humble peasant as well, a curse from the gods in the eyes of men, a bad omen for the future of house Lannister. Proud Tywin had to suffer what he feared most: to become the laughingstock of the kingdom. For Tywin Honor meant to be feared and respected and that very specific idea of honor was stained by the dwarf baby.

It is indeed hard to explain why he did not kill this baby, maybe Joanna did not die exacty during childbirth but a few days later when everything was known already, maybe Tywin feared the curse of being a kinslayer. But it was certainly not love for his child.

Did Tywin ever love any of his children, did he care like a parent in the modern sense would care? I think all his children were pawns to him, he may though have had a certain affection for Cersei. Tywin's children were there to fulfil expectations. They were a prolongation a Tywin himself, by them he meant to achieve things faster and easier. Those children of his weren't seen as individual personalities, their wishes only counted as long as they went along with daddy's ambitions. Cersei managed to internalise her father's expectations: marry a future king, thus become influential and enlarge the influence of our house, task done.

Jaime did not succeed so very well: though killing the king to be replaced, Jaime had let himself being lured into the kingsguard, not serving as valuable heir anymore.

And then there is Tyrion. The relationship must have been totally twisted from the beginning. Tywin may have felt quite soon that Tyrion had abilities that the other two lacked: Jaime and Cersei are certainly no fools but Tyrion was even more clever and he had those qualities Tywin liked in himself: The ability to think strategically, to evaluate situations in a cool manner and being ambitious.The more similiar to himself Tyrion turned out the more Tywin despised not only Tyrion for this but himself as well: that crippled monster could maybe do what I can?? embarrassing!

I think Tywin secretly feared that this vicious little monster son might get out of control, might make use of all his abilities. So apparently from early on he did everything to destroy Tyrions independence. The relationship must have been abusive from the beginning, like the training of a dog for agression and fighting: random, unpredictable punishments followed by equally unpredicticable favors, recognition for achievements followed by sudden agressions. The worst in education what you can do: total inconsistency. The boy Tyrion was forced to run after what he wanted most and definitely was never granted: the love and recognition of his father.

Tywin thus created a terrible dependency in his son, having him at his will as useful, sometimes highly functional pawn enslaved by his own emotional longings that his father was in no way willing to fulfill.

But little Tyrion took his elopements, his books, learning, his natural curiosity and openmindedness, his optimistic and certainly often charming personality, his verbal competence, his sense of humour. Has he always been cynical? Did other children bully him? Certainly.

The first severe transgression in Tywin's eyes was the relationship to Tysha. Tywin reacted with absolute brutality but he did not simply kill the girl and whip the boy, he arranged things purposefully the way that Tyrion was caught up in a web of guilt, was made an accomplice. Worse than sexually abusing a child is to make him or her an active part of abuse on top: you wanted it, you had a boner, you are the guilty one, the most vicious way of blaming the victim. And a thirteen year old child forced into sexual activity is ALWAYS a victim, no matter if there has been some moral guilt on his part as well. Tyrion had to be taught never to stain house Lannister again.

Now Tywin's control over Tyrion was absolute, a cruel golden clamp, the boy was convinced that no one would ever value, ever love him, no one would ever touch him without being paid.

Did Tywin want Tyrion to be killed in the battle? No, I don't think so. As long as Tyrion was useful Tywin let him make up for the shame he had brought upon house Lannister, Tyrion was tolerated and used by Tywin when needed, the pawn with a brain. Tywin would have been willing to go to war because of his son but not for his son, only for the Lannister honor this son has a part in.

Did Tywin believe that Tyrion murdered Joffrey? I don't know. But he never once questioned him in private, he simply did not care. I think by then Tyrion had done his job as useful pawn for his father. . He did not consummate the marriage to Sansa thus was useless in claiming the north. His deformities and failures had finally outweighed the advantages Tywin could expect from him. He had finally failed, he could go, death penalty. End of story, good riddance.

All his lifetime Tyrion had lived in that kind of antisymbiotic relationship to his father, drawing most of of his identity from NOT being a proper Lannister, constantly defined by daddy's expectations. either fulfilling them or defying them by drinking, whoring and other misbehaviour for the sake of a little immature opposition against this overwhelming terrorist father.

I have always wondered how a highly intelligent person like Tyrion spent his days, already being in his mid-twenties. Why did he not try to set up his own business contacs, making himself independent of Big Daddy? Why did he not travel the world and wrote books about it? It seems that this destructive relationship had kept Tyrion in a kind of prolonged puberty, postponed growing up until Tywin by making him Hand let Tyrion develop too much identity for Tywin's taste, making him proud enough to ask for Casterly Rock. Tywin brushed him off casually like an annoying mosquito. And when his family cut the last link to Tyrion by wanting him dead he snapped and freed himself of his torturer, drawing Shae into the disaster.

Someone who is unchanged by having murdered his father and his lover must be a sociopath. So it is obvious that Tyrion reacts in a deeply disturbed depressive agressive manner by the beginning of ADWD, anything else would be highly unbelievable. And after the character had to go down into deep moral and emotional hell Martin is free now to to build up the post puberty belatedly adult Tyrion who has done the most horrible crime to free himself from his oppressor, maturing by doing something awful, leaving the imago of funny dwarf, careless boy, happy whoremonger, cunning trickster behind in order to reveal capacities for good ad bad that have always been there. What kind of Tyrion will GRRM give us when the story goes on?

Quoted myself from another thread, lazy afternoon.

[Ygrain]

I have always wondered how a highly intelligent person like Tyrion spent his days, already being in his mid-twenties. Why did he not try to set up his own business contacs, making himself independent of Big Daddy? Why did he not travel the world and wrote books about it?

If I recall correctly, he did want to travel around the Free Cities - and Tywin told him that if he does, he's on his own and may never come back because he would only spread the shame of House Lannister abroad. As for the business contacts, I think that doing business was considered a commoner's job, or good only for some poor bloke like Baelish who had no power and no resources, and that no true Lord would be engaged in something so base.

But otherwise, :bowdown: to your analysis.

[Woman of War]

Thank you :blushing:

I am afraid that I am generally quite unable to grasp the life nobility led in that world, especially sons who were not heirs, so maybe Tyrion simply studied when other boys were training at arms.

This was probably the golden blackmailing deal Tywin, even more than other fathers of high nobility, had with his sons (daughters weren't free to decide anyway): behave and you have infinite access to family wealth, you can drink and whore and spend a fortune on horses and armour. Seek independence and shame the House and you get severely punished, the golden cage. And Tyrion was not independent emotionally, he wanted Daddy's approval and he needed some money for virtually every human contact.

Whereas Jaime was, in a way, able to free himself of his father's blackmailing by entering the kingsguard, although he did not realize back then that he was a pawn of both the king and Cersei.

[Dark Rider]

Jamie Lannister certainly did have incredible pressure on him growing-up due to Tywin's obssession with ensuring that House Lannister be lead by someone like himself not like Tywin's Father. Tyrion to Tywin is Tywin's Father in the sense that he feels he would be a laughing stock, mocked at court, and with his whore. I don't think he ever for one second recognizes Tyrion's talents until the War of the Five Kings when Tyrion's voice at his war council suddenly commands the ears of his bannermen through the good advice he gives. I'm not sure if it's in the book, but in GOT HBO Tywin says "I always thought you were a stunted fool, but perhaps I was wrong" to which Tyrion replies "half wrong." When Tyrion showed up home married to a common woman Tywin just go nuts and sees his weak Father, which triggers some dark reactions prompting the gang rape essentially of Tysha. From that moment on Tyrion was a fool to him and it's not until the War of the Five Kings he sees intelligence in him, but not enough to ever justify giving him Casterly Rock.

I think when Tyrion makes his desire to be Lord of Casterly Rock known openly to Tywin after the Battle of the Blackwater it becomes very clear that Tywin will do whatever it takes whether that's sending him off to the Wall or having him executed for Joffrey's crime to insure that doesn't happen.

Did Tywin ever love his children? I think he does in his own small way that he'd never acknowledge, because to show love is to show weakness for Tywin.

[The Storm Queen]

I remember serveral instances when Tyrion recalls something his father taught him. Unfortunately I am visiting my parents and do not have my books with me so probably somone else could provide the quotes?

I don't see Tywin taking an active hand in the education of any of his children. He was too busy being the Hand afterall. Jaime was dispatced to be a paige and a squire at a young age, while Cersei lorded over people at Casterly Rock and Tyrion was left to his own devices. I attribute Cersei's and Turion's differences in perspective in Cersei's ability to command obedience solely because of her station while Tyrion had to work for any kind of influence making him more aware of other people's interests and motives. Also Cersei never learned to fear anything or anyone (except her father) and Tyrion had a more inquisitive nature.

You can call Tyrion's mistrust and fear of women because of the power they have over him (something he is aware of but invariably succumbs to) misogyny, but I think it differs from Tywin's attitude, who barely acknowledges women as thinking entities and in need of smiting when they overstep the boundaries he has set for them in his scheme of things. Tyrion's attitude stems from fellings of personal betrayal (justified or not) and insecurity. Tywin seems to be a firm believer in the prevailing view of his society in which women have their particular place wtih added pathos due to his father's mistress, more along the lines of Randyl Tarly and Stannis.

I have to disagree with you concerning Tyrion´s misogyny. Yes he has issues that no one will love him for himself and all that but he also has a rather degrading and objectifying view on women in general. Only some examples

- Shae: "you help me best between the sheets"

- With Septa Lemore he describes her looks in greatest detail and mainly wants to have sex with her (note the fact how different he treats the males om board and how little interest he shows in her as a person. If I recall correctly he once even thinks that he is only interested in what is between her legs

- His cynic comments about poor Lollys - a disabled woman who has been gang raped- whom he only perceives in terms of her lack of attractivness

- His disgusting treatment of the female slaves in Essos whom he frightens and then rapes, totally knowing that they are affraid like hell.

- His fantasy to rape his own sister and the way he earlier asked her why she sleeps with Jaime and not with him.

....

By the way I do not understand how you include Stannis in your list. One of his most important advisers is a woman after all! I see him more as a very introvert person who has great trouble to connect with women and with men...

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[The Sleeper]

I remember serveral instances when Tyrion recalls something his father taught him. Unfortunately I am visiting my parents and do not have my books with me so probably somone else could provide the quotes?

I have to disagree with you concerning Tyrion´s misogyny. Yes he has issues that no one will love him for himself and all that but he also has a rather degrading and objectifying view on women in general. Only some examples

- Shae: "you help me best between the sheets"

- With Septa Lemore he describes her looks in greatest detail and mainly wants to have sex with her (note the fact how different he treats the males om board and how little interest he shows in her as a person. If I recall correctly he once even thinks that he is only interested in what is between her legs

- His cynic comments about poor Lollys - a disabled woman who has been gang raped- whom he only perceives in terms of her lack of attractivness

- His disgusting treatment of the female slaves in Essos whom he frightens and then rapes, totally knowing that they are affraid like hell.

- His fantasy to rape his own sister and the way he earlier asked her why she sleeps with Jaime and not with him.

....

By the way I do not understand how you include Stannis in your list. One of his most important advisers is a woman after all! I see him more as a very introvert person who has great trouble to connect with women and with men...

-

- I'm fairly certain that his response would be along those lines should Shagga offered him advise on policy.

- Sexual attraction is misogyny? The banter is mutual and there is no indication that he considers her uninteresting or stupid.

- He makes cynical comments about everyone. He is cynical as a person. I also don't recall any comments about her getting rapped, most of them concerned lady Tanda's efforts to find a husband for her by feasting every available male.

- He was at his lowest point emotionally and poured his frustration and self-loathing on these women. I am not saying that his actions were justifiable but I don't think they signify a general trend. For instance, he seemed rather fond of Chataya and Alayaya, making the comment that Chataya seemed dignified to him.

- Unless he actually does it I am going to consider this trash talking. The fact that he hates his sister does not mean that he hates all women.

Considers Stannis' behaviour to his wife, Alysanne Mormont and Asha. Even Melissandre indicates that she had to grind his resistances down before he listened to her.

[The Storm Queen]

- I'm fairly certain that his response would be along those lines should Shagga offered him advise on policy.

- Sexual attraction is misogyny? The banter is mutual and there is no indication that he considers her uninteresting or stupid.

- He makes cynical comments about everyone. He is cynical as a person. I also don't recall any comments about her getting rapped, most of them concerned lady Tanda's efforts to find a husband for her by feasting every available male.

- He was at his lowest point emotionally and poured his frustration and self-loathing on these women. I am not saying that his actions were justifiable but I don't think they signify a general trend. For instance, he seemed rather fond of Chataya and Alayaya, making the comment that Chataya seemed dignified to him.

- Unless he actually does it I am going to consider this trash talking. The fact that he hates his sister does not mean that he hates all women.

Considers Stannis' behaviour to his wife, Alysanne Mormont and Asha. Even Melissandre indicates that she had to grind his resistances down before he listened to her.

Sexual attraction if of course not misogyny but it becomes a problem if a man is known to be completly unable to accept that women are persons and not only sex objects. Name one woman (or more if you can) whom Tyrion ever treated as somehing akin to equal?

Even Chataya and Alayaya are more like fantasy fulfillment for him (beautiful, yet completly fine to sleep with every guy due to their religion. This goes beyond every happy whore trope I have ever encountered.....)

You seem to think that there is no disturbing tendency in his treatment of women and everything I have cited are only "exceptions" or "low points" or cynic behaviour that is totally non-related to gender (but when did Tyrion ever see a man only in terms of his sexuality?). I know many fans of Tyrion yet very few deny that he has exactly these kinds of problems. But if you see nothing problematic in Tyrion´s behaviour and thoughts towards women I suppose we have to little middle ground to discuss this topic seriously....

[PSU]

I like how Tyrion grows up in a misogynistic world, is surrounded by misogyny and lives in a culture where its acceptable, and we single him out for being a misogynist. Really, I feel like Tyrion's attitude towards women comes more from his dwarfism and a sort of self-loathing/narcissism back and forth psyche than it does from actually hating women.