110 replies to this topic

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I could get behind Cersei being "misunderstood" if she wasn't such an evil little bitch even during childhood. She chastised Maggy the Frog for not wanting to read her fortune, even after she clearly explained that she would not like what she heard. Even at that young age she was mouthing off about being a "Daughter of the Rock" and that her father would have Maggy's head if she refused her. Let's also not forget that she murdered her best friend Melara that very night for daring to say she liked Jaime.

Also, she used to pinch Tyrion when he was an infant to see him cry. She was a a sociopath from very early on, guys. Let's not sugarcoat this woman. She has NO redeeming qualities except being a deliciously wicked villainess for us readers.

[brena]

Lord Littlefinger, on 09 March 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

There's nothing sociopathic about Tywin.  He does what's necessary to advance his goals.

One doesn't prevent the other. He does what is necessary for his goals, with little to no regards for the rights, feelings and well-being of others. In the ASOIAF, it might be rather common for Lords, but his lack of empathy is still considerable, even compared to other Lords: the destruction of House Reyne, the slaying of the Targaeryan children, Tyron's sharp lesson...

Fire Eater, on 09 March 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

I mean in ASoS, when Tywin offers Jaime to leave the Kingsguard and marry Margaery Tyrell. Jaime after his experience with Brienne and losing his hand, says he wants to remain a member of the Kingsguard to which Tywin responds "You're not my son."

Oh, I had forgotten that. Thanks. Whether Tywin decided to disinherit Jaime or not, Jaime was still disinherited by choosing to remain in the Kingsgard, but I do agree that the intend was there. Would Tywin change his mind later on, thought? Because otherwise Tyrion would inherit. I wonder if that would be reason enough for someone like Tywin to "forgive" Jaime.

Edited by brena, 09 March 2012 - 11:26 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Queen Cersei I, on 09 March 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

Cersei and Tyrion, in books one through three, are actually more alike than Tyrion and Jaime.

Also-- though Cersei is by far the most villainized and demonized character in these books, Tyrion is clearly more or less the author's avatar who is glorified and morally indulged excused at every turn.

Tyrion is clearly supposed to be a hero, not a villain. I'd be shocked if he ever ends up being held responsible for killing Shae

Shae & Tywin both deserved a good killing.Its not like they're the first people he killed.  He had Allar Deem thrown into the sea. He cooked a singer.  Both for slights against sex workers

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or raping the two unnamed sex slaves

I could have sworn Tyrion paid the owner of the Brothel before Jorah kidnapped him

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whores   in ADWD. GRRM apparently found the first of these girls so insignificant and worthless so as not even to bother telling us whether or not Tyrion opted to make good on his clear promise to rape her after he was done eating dinner.

I thought about making a thread to talk about Cersei. But this as good a place as any.  In our last episode we successfully divined that Cersei=Theon and is a pathetic creature to be pittied not demonized.  

The issue at hand after that bit of psychoanalysis on Cersei is whether she is a different character in Feast than she was in the first three books.  While Cersei is able to outwit Ned Stark and Robert in GoT and seems to come across as a Machiavellian mastermind.  It is my contention that Cersei was always an idiot.  And that any perception of her as being astute doesn't last long into Clash. Cersei only looks clever when compared to Ned and Robert who both cheated off Hodor in order to get through high school.

Presented for the consideration of the midnight society:

Cersei is an Idiot:

“If it was Father who’d been taken captive, Jaime would not be sitting by idly, I promise you.”
Jaime would be battering his host to bloody bits against the walls of Riverrun, and the Others take their chances. He never did have any patience, no more than you, sweet sister. “Not all of us can be as bold as Jaime, but there are other ways to win wars. Harrenhal is strong and well situated.”
“And King’s Landing is not, as we both know perfectly well. While Father plays lion and fawn with the Stark boy, Renly marches up the roseroad. He could be at our gates any day now!”
“The city will not fall in a day. From Harrenhal it is a straight, swift march down the kingsroad. Renly will scarce have unlimbered his siege engines before Father takes him in the rear. His host will be the hammer, the city walls the anvil. it makes a lovely picture.”
Cersei’s green eyes bored into him, wary, yet hungry for the reassurance he was feeding her. “And if Robb Stark marches?”
“Harrenhal is close enough to the fords of the Trident so that Roose Bolton cannot bring the northern foot across to join with the Young Wolf’s horse. Stark cannot march on King’s Landing without taking Harrenhal first, and even with Bolton he is not strong enough to do that.” Tyrion
tried his most winning smile. “Meanwhile Father lives off the fat of the riverlands, while our uncle Stafford gathers fresh levies at the Rock.”
Cersei regarded him suspiciously. “How could you know all this? Did Father tell you his intentions when he sent you here?”
“No. I glanced at a map.”

A complete failure to grasp tactical and strategic implications of geography.

“Yes, yes,” the queen said impatiently, “but first we must stop this filth from spreading further. The council must issue an edict. Any man heard speaking of incest or calling Joff a bastard should lose his tongue for it.”
“A prudent measure,” said Grand Maester Pycelle, his chain of office clinking as he nodded.
“A folly,” sighed Tyrion. “When you tear out a man’s tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you’re only telling the world that you fear what he might say.”
“So what would you have us do?” his sister demanded.
“Very little. Let them whisper, they’ll grow bored with the tale soon enough. Any man with a thimble of sense will see it for a clumsy attempt to justify usurping the crown. Does Stannis offer proof? How could he, when it never happened?” Tyrion gave his sister his sweetest smile.
“That’s so,” she had to say. “Still.”
“Your Grace, your brother has the right of this.” Petyr Baelish steepled his fingers. “If we attempt to silence this talk, we only lend it credence. Better to treat it with contempt, like the pathetic lie it is. And meantime, fight fire with fire.”
Cersei gave him a measuring look. “What sort of fire?”
“A tale of somewhat the same nature, perhaps. But more easily believed. Lord Stannis has spent most of his marriage apart from his wife. Not that I fault him, I’d do the same were I married to Lady Selyse. Nonetheless, if we put it about that her daughter is baseborn and Stannis a cuckold, well... the smallfolk are always eager to believe the worst of their lords, particularly those as stern, sour, and prickly proud as Stannis Baratheon.”
“He has never been much loved, that’s true.” Cersei considered a moment. “So we pay him back in his own coin. Yes, I like this. Who can we name as Lady Selyse’s lover? She has two brothers, I believe. And one of her uncles has been with her on Dragonstone all this time...”
“Ser Axell Florent is her castellan.” Loath as Tyrion was to admit it, Littlefinger’s scheme had promise. Stannis had never been enamored of his wife, but he was bristly as a hedgehog where his honor was concerned and mistrustful by nature. If they could sow discord between him and his followers, it could only help their cause. “The child has the Florent ears, I’m told.”
Littlefinger gestured languidly. “A trade envoy from Lys once observed to me that Lord Stannis must love his daughter very well, since he’d erected hundreds of statues of her all along the walls of Dragonstone. ‘My lord’ I had to tell him, ‘those are gargoyles.”‘ He chuckled. “Ser Axell might serve for Shireen’s father, but in my experience, the more bizarre and shocking a tale the more apt it is to be repeated. Stannis keeps an especially grotesque fool, a lackwit with a tattooed face.”
Grand Maester Pycelle gaped at him, aghast. “Surely you do not mean to suggest that Lady Selyse would bring a fool into her bed?”
“You’d have to be a fool to want to bed Selyse Florent,” said Littlefinger. “Doubtless Patchface reminded her of Stannis. And the best lies contain within them nuggets of truth, enough to give a listener pause. As it happens, this fool is utterly devoted to the girl and follows her everywhere. They even look somewhat alike. Shireen has a mottled, halffrozen face as well.”
Pycelle was lost. “But that is from the greyscale that near killed her as a babe, poor thing.”
“I like my tale better,” said Littlefinger, “and so will the smallfolk. Most of them believe that if a woman eats rabbit while pregnant, her child will be born with long floppy ears.”
Cersei smiled the sort of smile she customarily reserved for Jaime. “Lord Petyr, you are a wicked creature.”
“Thank you, Your Grace.”

An inability to wage an effective propaganda war

Ser Kevan cleared his throat. “I would sooner have Petyr Baelish ruling the Eyrie than any of Lady Lysa’s other suitors. Yohn Royce, Lyn Corbray, Horton Redfort... these are dangerous men, each in his own way. And proud. Littlefinger may be clever, but he has neither high birth nor skill at arms. The lords of the Vale will never accept such as their liege.” He looked to his brother. When Lord Tywin nodded, he continued. “And there is this - Lord Petyr continues to demonstrate his loyalty. Only yesterday he brought us word of a Tyrell plot to spirit Sansa Stark off to Highgarden for a visit and there marry her to Lord Mace’s eldest son, Willas.”
“Littlefinger brought you word?” Tyrion leaned against the table. “Not our master of whisperers? How interesting.”
Cersei looked at their uncle in disbelief. “Sansa is my hostage. She goes nowhere without my leave.”
“Leave you must perforce grant, should Lord Tyrell ask,” their father pointed out. “To refuse him would be tantamount to declaring that we did not trust him. He would take offense.”
“Let him. What do we care?”
Bloody fool, thought Tyrion. “Sweet sister,” he explained patiently, “offend Tyrell and you offend Redwyne, Tarly, Rowan, and Hightower as well, and perhaps start them wondering whether Robb Stark might not be more accommodating of their desires.”
“I will not have the rose and the direwolf in bed together,” declared Lord Tywin. “We must forestall him.”

Complete disregard for the delicacy of her tenuous diplomatic position.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 09 March 2012 - 11:36 PM.

[Justice for Elia]

The Storm Queen, on 09 March 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

I adore the Lannisters in all their dysfunctional glory.
I agree with the OP that Tywin is one of the most blame-worthy characters in the novels. Another poster compared him to Beria which to me is a rather apt comparison. Concerning Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion I really feel that Tywin´s parenting methods messed them up big time and strengthened their worst character traits: With Tyrion it is misogyny, with Cersei it is regarding others as inferior/potential enemies and with Jaime it is moral relativism/the end justifies the means thinking. All silbling also share a certain lack of empathy in varying degrees.

Catastrophe, on 09 March 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Even more simply than that, he raised all three of his children to glorify "strength" (power, the use of intimidation and fear) and despise "weakness" (morality and empathy). They became monsters because that's exactly what he wanted them to be; the only problem (from his point of view) was that they lacked his foresight, patience, and intelligence.

Very insightful. I agree completely. One of the first contrasts I drew between the Starks and the Lannisters was that the former viewed their position as a duty, and the latter viewed their power as a right. That is clearly Tywin.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

brena, on 09 March 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

One doesn't prevent the other. He does what is necessary for his goals, with little to no regards for the rights, feelings and well-being of others. In the ASOIAF, it might be rather common for Lords, but his lack of empathy is still considerable, even compared to other Lords: the destruction of House Reyne, the slaying of the Targaeryan children, Tyron's sharp lesson...

Yes, but that presumes they have rights to begin with.  Where is the constitution of westeros? Where are these rights innumerated?

[Queen Cersei I]

And Now I bring you:
The Lannister Family-- Abridged

Having trouble telling one yellow haired shit from another? I feel your pain. But never fear. Here, I condense these complex characterizations into 1 to 4 sentences. You are welcome.

The Lannister family members in four sentences or less:

Tywin Lannister: "You are no son of mine!"

Cersei Lannister:
"You will return to Lord Gyles and tell him he does not have my leave to die yet!"

Tyrion Lannister:
"Girl, the only part of you that interests me is between your legs"

And, last but not least..... THE KINGSLAYER
Jaime Lannister
A real high class Lord wears a lion crest
A real high class lord makin' love to his twin
Cause real high class Lords chose incest!

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 09 March 2012 - 11:49 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

ManyFacedOne, on 09 March 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

It's not as clear cut as that. Tyrion blurs the lines between hero and villian, and his actions are probably some of the most disputed among the readership (judging form these forums anyway).



As would I, especially since they're completely insignificant as far as anyone in the story is concerned. Also, it's infeasible that Tyrion would be held accountable for "raping" the sex slaves, considering he paid her and no one would view that as a crime.



He's definitely capable of running things but I wouldn't go that far. He's far too ruthless to have been an effective king. Him being unchecked, I could see him doing some serious damage to anyone or house that slighted him (or even perceived to) in the least or even went against his will.

Well its not really clear that he's all that ruthless. Look all of the people who welcomes back into the King's peace after the war of the 5 kings without seeking vengeance.  He's probably the right amount of ruthless. Ruthless enough so that people are too afraid to challenge him but otherwise not sadistic. Its his reputation alone that prevents his fall from power in a war they should have lost.  Balon Greyjoy was simply too afraid to attack Lannisport. Had he done so, it would have been game over.

[Winter's Knight]

Queen Cersei I, on 09 March 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

My good people: I give you the Lannister family members in three sentences or less.

Tywin Lannister: "You are no son of mine!"

Cersei Lannister:
"You will return to Lord Gyles and tell him he does not have my leave to die yet!"

Tyrion Lannister:
"Girl, the only part of you that interests me is between your legs"

And, last but not least..... THE KINGSLAYER
Jaime Lannister
Damn it feels good to be a Lannister
A real high class Lord wears a lion crest
A real high class lord makin' love to his twin
Cause real high class Lords chose incest!

Let it never be said that femnists have no sense of humour.

[The King in the South]

Lord Littlefinger, on 09 March 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

Shae & Tywin both deserved a good killing.Its not like they're the first people he killed.  He had Allar Deem thrown into the sea. He cooked a singer.  Both for slights against sex workers

Um no, that's completely false right there. He stewed Symon after the guy asked to perform at Joffrey's wedding well vaguely hinting that Tyrion might have problems if he didn't. (Funny thing though is that it was Tyrion who went and found Symon) And actually, Symon was Shae's only real friend, and if anyone "slighted" a sex worker it was Tyrion when he had the man killed for a single comment.

And how the hell does Shae deserve a good killing? For testifying against Tyrion (well under duress and possible threat of life) after their agreement had been terminated?

Edited by The King in the South, 09 March 2012 - 11:49 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

The King in the South, on 09 March 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

Um no, that's completely false right there. He stewed Symon after the guy asked to perform at Joffrey's wedding well vaguely hinting that Tyrion might have problems if he didn't. (Funny thing though is that it was Tyrion who went and found Symon)

uh no he didn't Simon was just there one night when Tyrion went to Shae's

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And actually, Symon was Shae's only real friend,

How do you know they're friends?

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and if anyone "slighted" a sex worker it was Tyrion when he had the man killed for a single comment.

you realize he was threatening to divulge what he knew about Shae and Tyrion right? And Tywin said that any prostitute Tyrion was found with would be hung?

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And how the hell does Shae deserve a good killing? For testifying against Tyrion (well under duress and possible threat of life) after their agreement had been terminated?

Yeah. She was under duress and expect Tyrion to get executed.  But he didn't, which was unfortunate for her.

[The King in the South]

Lord Littlefinger, on 09 March 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

uh no he didn't Simon was just there one night when Tyrion went to Shae's How do you know they're friends?  you realize he was threatening to divulge what he knew about Shae and Tyrion right? And Tywin said that any prostitute Tyrion was found with would be hung?
Yeah. She was under duress and expect Tyrion to get executed.  But he didn't, which was unfortunate for her.

Pretty sure he couldn't have gotten into that manse if he wasn't Shae's friend, considering it's guarded 24/7.
Pretty sure they wouldn't have been hanging out together and joking if they weren't friends.
Pretty sure she wouldn't have told him about her relationship with Tyrion if they weren't friends.

And if Tyrion was so worried about Shae's life/happiness, then he wouldn't have killed the man, and just let him play at the damn wedding. But, no, instead he saw someone else who Shae might have actually liked and with him that's a big no-no, so he had the dude killed and tossed into a stew. (As if just killing him and tossing him into the ocean was too lenient or something)

And err, that still doesn't mean she deserved to die? It just means she got unlucky.

Edited by The King in the South, 10 March 2012 - 12:33 AM.

[Winter's Knight]

The King in the South, on 10 March 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

Pretty sure he couldn't have gotten into that manse if he wasn't Shae's friend, considering it's guarded 24/7.
Pretty sure they wouldn't have been hanging out together and joking if they weren't friends.
Pretty sure she wouldn't have told him about her relationship with Tyrion if they weren't friends.

And if Tyrion was so worried about Shae's life/happiness, then he wouldn't have killed the man, and just let him play at the damn wedding. But, no, instead he saw someone else who Shae might have actually liked and with him that's a big no-no, so he had the dude killed and tossed into a stew. (As if just killing him and tossing him into the ocean wasn't enough)

And err, that still doesn't mean she deserved to die? It just means she got unlucky.

If he cared about her life, he'd have sent her away/released her from his employ.

[Catastrophe]

Lord Littlefinger, on 09 March 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

There's nothing sociopathic about Tywin.  He does what's necessary to advance his goals.  The problem is he's incompetent at a rearing his children.  He over  compensates for the weakness he saw in his own father and isn't sufficiently nurturing with his own children.  As a result he drives them away and causes them to take unnecessary risks in order gain his approval through achievement.

I agree that Tywin isn't a sociopath. Sociopath isn't a catch-all term for "bad person." Unlike Joffrey, Tywin has a perfectly fine understanding of ethics, he simply chooses not to act ethically when it doesn't suit him. The same goes for Tyrion to a lesser degree.

I don't think Cersei's a sociopath either, though she does display extreme paranoid and narcissistic traits, in addition to being willfully short-sighted and impulsive.

The King in the South, on 10 March 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

And if Tyrion was so worried about Shae's life/happiness, then he wouldn't have killed the man, and just let him play at the damn wedding. But, no, instead he saw someone else who Shae might have actually liked and with him that's a big no-no, so he had the dude killed and tossed into a stew. (As if just killing him and tossing him into the ocean wasn't enough)

Not to get into the whole Tyrion/Symon/Shae debate yet again, but let's be honest here: If Tyrion had gone along with Symon's plan, the same people who criticize him for killing Symon would just be calling him out for callously having some innocent singer beaten and crippled, all so he can selfishly keep his whore happy. If Tyrion had let Symon carry out his threats, they'd say he was a coward for not doing anything to prevent Shae from getting hanged. In terms of morality, it was a no-win situation.

Edited by Catastrophe, 10 March 2012 - 12:31 AM.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Catastrophe, on 10 March 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

I agree that Tywin isn't a sociopath. Sociopath isn't a catch-all term for "bad person." Unlike Joffrey, Tywin has a perfectly fine understanding of ethics, he simply chooses not to act ethically when it doesn't suit him. The same goes for Tyrion to a lesser degree.

I don't think Cersei's a sociopath either, though she does display extreme paranoid and narcissistic traits, in addition to being willfully short-sighted and impulsive.



Not to get into the whole Tyrion/Symon/Shae debate yet again, but let's be honest here: If Tyrion had gone along with Symon's plan, the same people who criticize him for killing Symon would just be calling him out for callously having some innocent singer beaten and crippled, all so he can selfishly keep his whore happy. If Tyrion had let Symon carry out his threats, they'd say he was a coward for not doing anything to prevent Shae from getting hanged. In terms of morality, it was a no-win situation.

Yeah however he might have handled it there would be drawbacks. Not saying that he handled it the right way.

Still, Tyrion having Shae in court was a problem in itself. It was endangering her, and forcing him into no win situations.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 10 March 2012 - 12:41 AM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

The King in the South, on 10 March 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

Pretty sure he couldn't have gotten into that manse if he wasn't Shae's friend, considering it's guarded 24/7.

Or she paid him to sing

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Pretty sure they wouldn't have been hanging out together and joking if they weren't friends.

or she paid him to sing

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Pretty sure she wouldn't have told him about her relationship with Tyrion if they weren't friends.

Or she has a big mouth and doesn't realize how much danger she could really be in

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And if Tyrion was so worried about Shae's life/happiness, then he wouldn't have killed the man, and just let him play at the damn wedding.

Tyrion doesn't have control over the wedding. and once the extortion works once what's to stop Symon from coming back again.  Besides its a bad idea to threaten Tyrion to begin with. That alone is reason enough to kill him.  

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But, no, instead he saw someone else who Shae might have actually liked and with him that's a big no-no, so he had the dude killed and tossed into a stew. (As if just killing him and tossing him into the ocean was too lenient or something)

I really don't think Tyrion worried about shae liking him.  if that were the problem he would have killed the first time they met.  The stew was just to get rid of the body.  Besides, throwing him in the sea would be a waste of perfectly good meat

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And err, that still doesn't mean she deserved to die? It just means she got unlucky.

Yeah she deserved to die for betraying Tyrion. If she'd thought he was likely to escape she probably would have expected him to kill her.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Winterbreath, on 10 March 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

If he cared about her life, he'd have sent her away/released her from his employ.

She was free to go, or not come to kings landing with Tyrion to begin with.  She chose to follow around after an army.  And she chose to stay with Tyrion because she wanted more dresses and Jewels.

[The King in the South]

Lord Littlefinger, on 10 March 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

Or she paid him to singor she paid him to sing Or she has a big mouth and doesn't realize how much danger she could really be in
Tyrion doesn't have control over the wedding. and once the extortion works once what's to stop Symon from coming back again.  Besides its a bad idea to threaten Tyrion to begin with. That alone is reason enough to kill him.  I really don't think Tyrion worried about shae liking him.  if that were the problem he would have killed the first time they met.  The stew was just to get rid of the body.  Besides, throwing him in the sea would be a waste of perfectly good meat Yeah she deserved to die for betraying Tyrion. If she'd thought he was likely to escape she probably would have expected him to kill her.

1. Shae doesn't have the money to go around hiring fancy singers, since Tyrion never pays her.
2. It's pretty clear she's not an idiot, considering how she picks up on things and her convos with Tyrion.
3. Tyrion is the Master of Coin. He can get a singer into a wedding if he really wants.
4. Go reread Tyrion's POV when he talks to Symon. Hell when they first meet Tyrion insults him with provacation. (And regarding if they're friends or not, Shae asks Tyrion immedietly afterwords not to harm Symon because he makes her feel happy when he's not there.)

Really. You think someone deserves to be strangled to death because they lied well under duress/threats? That's kind of disturbing.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Lord Littlefinger, on 09 March 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

Cersei only looks clever when compared to Ned and Robert who both cheated off Hodor in order to get through high school.

   Thank you for my second laugh of the day.

brena, on 09 March 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

I have a theory about the common bias giving more sympathy to Tyron and Jaime then Cercei. While I think that a majority of readers being men accounts for a part of it, and that tjhe unfortunate-but-common overly harsh judgement of women toward other women also plays a significant part, I think it might be because they amuse the readers rather then their overall personality.

- Tyron delivers lots of amusing insults and witty comments, he ridicules a lot of characters we don't particularly like, and even when he mocks characters we do like, it's generaly amusing enough to make the reader laugh. He also often make derogatory about himself more often then anyone else. (edit: and Peter Dinklage's performance, for those who saw the TV show before getting to far in the books)
- Jaime cynical and sarcastic thoughts are kinda funny to read. He also mocks people left and right, and later on, even himself. At that point, him pushing a kid out a window is very far away and we know the kid is "fine" (that doesn't excuse it), and I think even a reader who disliked Jaime may start liking him just because he brings himself down so much.
- Cercei is not funny. She doesn't ridicule herself.

Absolutely.  People claim that Jaime is on a redemption arc, but I think he's on a public relations arc.  He's fundamentally the same person, but we like him better because we see him being smart, witty, and occasionally, nice and kind.  His POVs have steadily become more fun to read.

When I started reading a Game of Thrones I was looking for the hero, or at least the main narrator, whose point of view would prevail in the end.  I thought that surely the smart-but-abused dwarf was a primary candidate, and I liked him for his wit and in anticipation of him succeeding spectacularly.  And then I got schooled in the ways of GRRM and Tyrion's become steadily less likeable, in fact, absolutely hateful.  His POVs have become a complete chore to read.

Cersei is the classic Mean Girl; they never have a sense of humor, and they never get the joke. They're constantly set up to become enmeshed in their own plots and fail.  Ergo . . . walk of shame.  It's a hard part to play, but someone had to do it.  Her POVs are . . . interesting.

My solution to the Symon problem:  drug his drink and after he's passed out, put him on a ship to Eastwatch or Volantis or whatever.  Send his lute with him.  By the time he earned his way back, the crisis would be over and he'd have learned "a sharp lesson."  Actually one of my problems with this series is how everyone goes straight to the nuclear option.  Murder is usually overkill.  

Edited by Sand Snake No. 9, 10 March 2012 - 01:59 AM.

[Queen Cersei I]

Catastrophe, on 10 March 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

Not to get into the whole Tyrion/Symon/Shae debate yet again, but let's be honest here: If Tyrion had gone along with Symon's plan, the same people who criticize him for killing Symon would just be calling him out for callously having some innocent singer beaten and crippled, all so he can selfishly keep his whore happy. If Tyrion had let Symon carry out his threats, they'd say he was a coward for not doing anything to prevent Shae from getting hanged. In terms of morality, it was a no-win situation.

Hardly.

In fact, Tyrion could have taken a number of steps that he simply refused to consider. Most obviously, he could have paid one of the pre arranged singers off well to give up their spot and conveiniently leave it open for Symon. Tyrion could have easily done this, being a part of the richest families in the land, and clearly having extensive resources at his disposal. (He has enough extra cash to buy shae a "sprawling" home, dozens of servants and guards, silks and jewels, and other things for Shae in ACOK.)

Tyrion could have easily paid someone off and had Symon take their place. He didn't. And the reason why is clear-- he reflects upon it in his POV when he decides to off Symon. He, Tyrion, will not be threatened by this impudent nobody. He will not stand for it. Thus, Symon gets some info on Tyrion, tries to blackmail him to get into the wedding, and Tyrion kills him for this impudence. And Tyrion has many, many other choices, he simply choses to take the ultimate one-- murder. Because in the end, he is powerful and Symon is a nobody and he can get away with it.

He has Symon murdered, his body desecrated and turned into stew, which is then fed to innocent poor people who cannot afford any other fare.

Tyrion's behavior here is not just wrong-- its disturbing, malicious, and lazy. And, frankly, it recalls not Jaime (who many claim is turning out to be so much like him) but Cersei. In AFFC, Cersei realizes that Falyse has become a threat. Like Tyrion does with Symon, she tries to give Falyse an out (joining the silent sisters,) but Falyse does not realize it. Cersei then decides she "must" have Falyse thrown to Qyburn.

Of course, Cersei's is by far the worse act-- poor Falyse never threatened anyone, she is not just having her killed, but extensively tortured, Falyse in general seems like a bettter person than Symon. However, the similarities are striking-- both Cersei and Tyrion, due to either incompetence (Cersei) or selfish personal issues (Tyrion) screw up and info about this is known by people who threaten to be a liability. With all the resources at their disposal, however, neither Cersei nor Tyrion try the numerous other options for dealing with this problem. Instead, they jump to murder. After making a mistake themselves, they abuse their power to have an undeserving person killed just because they know that it is the simplest solution, and they can get away with it.

That said, Tyrion is a much, much better ruler than the incompetent Cersei. And he has not yet done anything like throwing people to a nutty torturer for a puppet show. However, in his cruelty, entitlement, pride, etc., imo, he is far more like his sister than many readers would care to admit.

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 10 March 2012 - 02:27 AM.

[Ygrain]

The King in the South, on 10 March 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

1. Shae doesn't have the money to go around hiring fancy singers, since Tyrion never pays her.

Doesn't he? She lives in a fine house, with fancy dresses, jewels and such likes. I doubt very much that Tyrion personally goes picking the clothes and trinkets for her, so either she gets some money to spend herself, or someone who runs the household gets a sum of money to pay for Shae's expenses.

The King in the South, on 10 March 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

2. It's pretty clear she's not an idiot, considering how she picks up on things and her convos with Tyrion.

I have to disagree. She makes several profound blunders in her convos with Tyrion - a couple of times she misses a serious warning when he is concerned with her safety and she apparently has a very poor grasp of Tyrion's personality (very clear in the final scene when she chooses a totally wrong approach, but even before, e.g. when she calls Tyrion a coward for not being able to stand up to his father - that's something a person of her social status would never dare towards a Lord's son, but here she overestimates his infatuation with her, and the fact that he is a dwarf definitely contributes, as well)

The King in the South, on 10 March 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

3. Tyrion is the Master of Coin. He can get a singer into a wedding if he really wants.

First and foremost, he is the hated ugly valonquar of Cersei's, who is the one in charge of the wedding preparations. His interest in getting a particular singer to perform would definitely raise suspicion, even if he tried to act through other persons. Besides, as a Master of Coin he does not have the means he had when he acted as the Hand. I don't think he has much authority to order people about.

The King in the South, on 10 March 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Really. You think someone deserves to be strangled to death because they lied well under duress/threats? That's kind of disturbing.

I'd really want to know, though, if the "giant of Lannister" part was something she was ordered to say, or if it was her own personal contribution. Also, it is not clear to what extent was her testimony forced - she tells Tyrion that she was made to, but Cersei recalls making a deal. Cersei's idea of "deal" may well include threats but since Shae demanded her jewels which she had been promised, my impression is that she was bribed into the testimony, rather than coerced.
- Not condoning the strangling but not sure that Shae was 100% innocent in this, either.