107 replies to this topic

[The Duke]

Revan Baratheon, on 09 March 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Best DEM:stannis saving the day at the end of ASOS

Worst DEM:Renly's death by a shadow omfg really!??!!

Agree on both counts.  It was a BA moment how that chapter ended: "STANIS! STANIS!!  STANIS!!!!"

I'm curious how HBO is going to deal with the whole shadow assassin/Melisandre giving birth to a shadow thing.  That could come off very poorly on screen unless modified or handled just right.

[The Duke]

_dp

Edited by The Duke, 09 March 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Arkash, on 09 March 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

Well, not a DEM, but a mystery that is still to be explained that is... maybe, for me, the most intriguing one...

Coldhands/Benjen Stark definitely had something to do with that one, was it mentioned whether he knew the Children of the Forest?

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Revan Baratheon, on 09 March 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

Yea also i would like to point out how Aegon 6th arrived and conquered storm's end and the southern minor houses(tarth,stepstones) in like what,about 200-300 pages that he's got  screentime in the books?
And Daenerys takes about 400 pages to reach quarth? About 600 pages of ruling mereene???

Aegon does in 300 pages what Dany couldn't in 5 books.

[Lord Snowflakes]

The Swaggering Bravo, on 09 March 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

Aegon does in 300 pages what Dany couldn't in 5 books.

A god in a machine would be able to do it in 5 pages.

[Grunkins]

While there was plenty of grounding for Stannis' arrival at the wall, it felt like a DEM.  Not that I wasn't cheering when it happened.

[LordBloodraven]

Jamie Lannister, on 09 March 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

Ramsay Bolton somehow manages to fight and slaughter an army of northmen, roughly five times the size of his own force... and loses only "twenty or thirty" men.

Eh. The element of surprise can be great and everything, but those odds are dubious.

This. For some reason, many scenarios in ASOIAF seems forced. I mean GRRM definitely needed Winterfell to be sacked for the plot, but Ramsay doing it with 500 men against 2000 is too unbelievable.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Lord Snowflakes, on 10 March 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

A god in a machine would be able to do it in 5 pages.

I didn't intend that to be a proposed DEM.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

The Swaggering Bravo, on 09 March 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

Aegon does in 300 pages what Dany couldn't in 5 books.

Actually, I think that's the reason for Aegon VI; he's the sword that cuts the Meerenese knot.  Clearly a Targaryen of some kind had to make it to Westeros before all the wars were over.

[PatrickStormborn]

I think Dany hatching dragons and Stannis arriving at the Wall are both about the same level of DEM; they were foreshadowed and character-driven, but they were also large game-changing moments.

The only bad thing about Stannis's DEM arrival at the Wall was that it occurred just as Jon had to make a tough decision.

[Loose seal]

Dany's dragons would be a DEM if and only if at the beginning of Clash of Kings she had flown to Westeros, burned down Cersei and claimed the throne. We all know that...didn't happen. The Dragons did not resolve any knot in the plot. If anything, they made the plot even more complicated.
For me, the birth of the dragons is anything but a DEM moment.

Stannis showing up could be seen as a DEM moment because their timing is nothing short of extraordinary...but it was not completely unexpected. Lots of build up led to this.

Sam just happening to find the dragonglass and slay the Other was a huge coincidence, but again, it didn't solve an especially complicated plot situation.

So far, there have been no true DEM moments.
Harry Potter is riddled with DEM moments, basically every book is resolved by a DEM... but ASOIAF is safe so far. A plot resolution can not, by definition, be a DEM if there has been build up and foreshadowing for it, and GRRM is pretty good at that.

Edited by The Lost Direwolf, 10 March 2012 - 04:27 AM.

[Silmarien]

The King in the South, on 09 March 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Stannis attacking Mance
Tywin/Mace attacking Stannis
Dany getting her dragons
An Other letting himself get killed by Sam

Not sure if those above are necessarily good or bad. I'm definetely missing a few too

Stannis attacking the Wildlings was already set up.  Davos picks up the letter from the NW calling for aid from all 5 (3, 4, whatever, I forget who was dead at this point) from Ser Pylos.  Davos smuggles out Edric Storm.  Stannis gets PISSED and demands explanation.  Davos begins reading a letter..... (not that hard to figure out, at least on a reread).

Dany getting her dragons isn't a Deus Ex Machina.  She wasn't miraculously saved.  It was kind pivotal to the story.  Deus Ex Machina = divine intervention at a moment of peril/certain doom.  Dany wasn't doomed without her dragons, Ser Jorah could have taken her to Asshai, or anywhere else.

Sam killing an Other was a mini Deus Ex Machina - he got lucky that White Walkers are vulnerable to Obsidian.  But he didn't destroy all the Others or anything.  He only killed ONE.

On that note, I suppose Jon killing the Wight attacking LC Jeor Mormont with fire (randomly, or after hearing the raven scream it) also a Deus ex Machina?

[Silmarien]

The Lost Direwolf, on 10 March 2012 - 04:26 AM, said:

Dany's dragons would be a DEM if and only if at the beginning of Clash of Kings she had flown to Westeros, burned down Cersei and claimed the throne. We all know that...didn't happen. The Dragons did not resolve any knot in the plot. If anything, they made the plot even more complicated.
For me, the birth of the dragons is anything but a DEM moment.

Stannis showing up could be seen as a DEM moment because their timing is nothing short of extraordinary...but it was not completely unexpected. Lots of build up led to this.

Sam just happening to find the dragonglass and slay the Other was a huge coincidence, but again, it didn't solve an especially complicated plot situation.

So far, there have been no true DEM moments.
Harry Potter is riddled with DEM moments, basically every book is resolved by a DEM... but ASOIAF is safe so far. A plot resolution can not, by definition, be a DEM if there has been build up and foreshadowing for it, and GRRM is pretty good at that.

Thanks, that's what I've been trying to say!  DEM's have to solve a major plot complications or save the "hero" from certain doom in a major way - Sam managing to kill an Other with Obsidian just was lucky, it didn't save him from encountering further Wights while protecting Gilly.

Dany's dragons literally had nothing to do with solving a complicated plot situation, or to save her.

Agreed that Stannis going to the Wall to help the NW via Davos' suggestion and reading of that letter had plenty of buildup.  Mel had seen the Fist in her visions.  She knew the fight was up North Beyond-the-Wall.  Davos just pushed them into going and that took major cajones.

That scene kinda reminded me of the one in LOTR, The Two Towers, during the siege of Helm's Deep, when at dawn, Gandalf arrives with Eomer and his large group of horse (5000?).  Was that a DEM from Tolkien, despite Gandalf saying "look for my coming at first light on the fifth day; at dawn, look to the East"?  And us knowing he was trying to find Eomer and his riders for reinforcements?  That's more of a DEM than anything I've seen mentioned here.

Also, if "Aegon" is actually the real deal, that's a weird plot issue/poor writing.  But it isn't a DEM.

[Silmarien]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 09 March 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

I can't really think of anything that bad, other than Mance trusting Jon after the Fist of the First Men. This series doesn't really have that many plot holes, at least none as glaring as "Why didn't they just ride the eagles to Mordor?"

He only trusted Jon because Ygritte spoke up and said "WE'RE IN LOVE THAT PROVES HE IS TRUSTWORTHY AND NOT BEHOLDEN TO HIS VOWS!"  Hardly a DEM.

[seeyouintee]

These threads remind me of that song by Alanis Morrisette... No dear, it really isn't ironic. <pats head>

[Silmarien]

A Free Shadow, on 09 March 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

Not exactly "Deus ex mashina", but... maybe slightly. Jaqen gives Arya a coin and she is suddenly going not to find Jon at The Wall, but to the other end of the world

That is a plot twist.  She actually ends up kidnapped by the BwB first, and then by the Hound, trying to ransom her back to her family.  After the fight at the Inn, she rides away by herself.  Where would she have gone?  The Wall doesn't accept women.  And it was HUNDREDS OF MILES AWAY.  It made more sense to go to the Saltpans and catch a ride out of Westeros.

[Silmarien]

LordBloodraven, on 10 March 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

This. For some reason, many scenarios in ASOIAF seems forced. I mean GRRM definitely needed Winterfell to be sacked for the plot, but Ramsay doing it with 500 men against 2000 is too unbelievable.

It was dark.  They were taken by treachery.  I'm sure many fled, instead of all 2000 dying.  I don't think it's that strange - when your battle commander is killed, men tend to flee or get slaughtered trying to flee.  Especially if you don't know friend from foe.

[Silmarien]

The Duke, on 09 March 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

Agree on both counts.  It was a BA moment how that chapter ended: "STANIS! STANIS!!  STANIS!!!!"

I'm curious how HBO is going to deal with the whole shadow assassin/Melisandre giving birth to a shadow thing.  That could come off very poorly on screen unless modified or handled just right.

It's already stated Mel has powers.  We just happen to learn what her powers CAN DO when Renly is killed via Stannis-shadowbaby.  That's not DEM.  It's expanding on details of Mel's abilities (and confirms that Stannis and she are sleeping together, at least after Ser Courtnay Penrose "mysteriously" dies via "shadowbaby" - Davos says in his POV - "He knew that shadow."  Obviously implying it was Stannis.

Magic is NOT always a DEM, guys.  It's FANTASY for the love of god(s) (old, new, drowned, and fiery).

[chrisdaw]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 09 March 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

I can't really think of anything that bad, other than Mance trusting Jon after the Fist of the First Men.

Not really, Jarl's mission was never expected to succeed, just a long shot worth a try. On the scale of things, it's perfectly reasonable that Mance would believe killing Jon would cause more problems for him than letting him live.

[just an Other]

Dragons, Shadowbabies, Coldhands and the Black Gate. These are the elements that are deus ex machinas in the classic sense; they are novel when they appear and magical in nature. And dragons didn't resolve anyhting at the moment of their birth, though they turned Dany into a force to be reckoned with in the blink of an eye. Drogon appearing in the fighting pits to singlehandedly destroy the peace between Yunkai and Meereen when he was out of the picture for half the book was a deus ex machina moment.

I don't think J'qen Hgar fits. He was intorduced well in advance and at first all he does is a couple of assasinations. The iron coin is sort of deus in a pocket. It helped Arya in killing the guard at Harrenhal and allowed to gain passage on the Titan's daughter.

The most glaring moment for me was Varys killing Kevan in order to put Cersei back in charge.

The rest is story arcs intersecting with timing that verges on the improbable for dramatic effect. For example Matin could have had Stannis arive at the Wall a few days earlier. The difference would be that we wouldn't have Jon put in that precarious situation nor would we have eyes on the battle. The most improbable for me is Jon coming across Summer on his way to Castle Black . Considering the vastness of the landscape it's really, really unlikely that those groups would come across each other. It resulted in one of my favorite scenes in the books (Then death lept down among them).

On that note. Mance never trusted Jon. He kept him on a short leash and managed to coax usefull information from him on multiple occasions. Without Summer Jon would not have been able to escape.

Edited by just an Other, 10 March 2012 - 04:56 AM.