108 replies to this topic

[Bran Vras]

Thanks for all the comments. The three theory could have been formulated from ASoS alone. The notion that Mance knows well the clansmen is the one that I feel the most confident about. In any case, there is much to understand about Mance.

Regarding Melisandre's power over Mance, the red priestess certainly believes to be in control. But we know she can be seriously mistaken at times. If Mance is unknowingly charmed, it might be also that Melisandre herself is controlled by a higher power (through her own ruby). In the Melisandre chapter, the Red Lady wonders whether she was right to save Mance, as if she wasn't sure why she did it, maybe the power she serves knows.

I take good note of Brashcandy's suggestion that the daughter, mother and grandmother could be the same person, if they are alike Melisandre.

I take good note of Black Crow reference to the Scottish clans and the importance of the notion of milk brother (Craster's son and Mance's son are milk brother). We know that the Wall was largely inspired by Hadrian's Wall, hence it wouldn't be surprising if Scottish clans were an inspiration as well. The notion of milk sibling has appeared a few times in the book.

Like the King of Worms, I suspect there is something behing Tormund's stories, and that Tormund might have fathered some of the Mormont girls.

Here are a few questions and remarks, that I didn't put in the original posts:

-- As King-beyond-the-Wall, Mance wore a helm of iron and bronze with raven wings. Any idea about its significance, beyond the familiar iron=andals, bronze=first men?

-- The washerwomen show a curious deference to the Starks:

Quote

Rowan gave him a hard look. “You have no right to mouth Lord Eddard’s words.

I hardly see a wildling saying "Lord Eddard". I wondered if they aren't from the clans as well. (I suppose a clanswoman would have said "The Ned"). If this is the case, it seems that they were already in Mance's host beyond the Wall.

-- Concerning the plans of Mance, it's hard to say. But here is a conversation between Theon and the spearwife Rowan

Quote

“If you have no smile for me, tell me how you captured Winterfell. Abel will put it in a song, and you will live forever.”
“As a betrayer. As Theon Turncloak.”
“Why not Theon the Clever? It was a daring feat, the way we heard it. How many men did you have? A hundred? Fifty?”
Fewer. “It was madness.”
“Glorious madness. Stannis has five thousand, they say, but Abel claims ten times as many still
could not breach these walls. So how did you get in, m’lord? Did you have some secret way?”

Theon assumes Abel wants to know a way to escape Winterfell. But, it's possible that Mance is preparing a to play the trojan horse for the clans.

-- We have not seen any direct evidence of Mance's interest in the crypts, but given Mance's passion for the story of Bael, it is to be expected.

-- Bael the bard is surprisingly described as a mediocre singer and musician by Theon.

-- Another little detail gave me pause, this time in ACoK. Mance

Quote

“If he knew they’d lit a fire, he’d flay the poor bastards,” said Ebben, a squat bald man muscled like a bag of rocks.

Isn't it the only time anybody besides a Bolton, practices flaying?

-- At a point, Jon stress how ancient the clans are.

Quote

Men have lived in the high valleys and mountain meadows for thousands of years, ruled by their clan chiefs.

The clans might have played an important role in the ancient history of the North (take note heretics!).

Edited by Bran Vras, 18 March 2012 - 03:03 PM.

[The King of Worms]

Ygitte told Jon about Mance searching through all those graves in the frost fangs for the Horn of Winter. Mance admitted to Jon that the horn Melisandre burned was not the real horn.
For some reason Melisandre spares him using a glammer to use him for ??? even though you would think that she would WANT to burn him in her fires for Stannis.
Lady Dustin's strange interest in the crypts, and Theon notices those swords are missing... and didn't Bran's maester say that there were crypts under Winterfell no one has visited in centuries... a lot of foreshadowing...
The Horn is down there and Mance is trying to get a hold of it.

[Kaylee]

Bran Vras, on 17 March 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Two important things have been mentioned already. One concerns the fact that the Wulls fish the Bay of Ice and frighten their children with tales of Ironmen. So the Wulls do not frighten their children with tales of the Wildlings but with tales of Ironborn who are much farther removed. Hence wildlings are not traditional enemies of the Wulls. Moreover, if the Wulls fish the Bay of Ice, they can reach the Frozen Shore and go beyond the Wall. So I suspect that the Wulls and the Wildlings have relations.

Bran Vras, on 17 March 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Conclusion: the clans do not fear the wildlings, and have possibly contacts with them.

They probably trade with them.


They may also be quite literally related in some cases. Apparently raiders from beyond the Wall steal girls on a regular basis, and these girls don't disappear, they are wives or mothers of some of Mance's warriors. I am also wondering about some of the spearwives he took to Winterfell, especially Rowan. I don't have a proof for that but I can very well imagine a girl kidnapped as a teenager ending up as a spearwife 10 or 15 years later.

Bran Vras, on 17 March 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

What did Mance do the fifty times he went south of the Wall? I don't believe it was about stealing women.

Mance is still posing as Rattleshirt at this moment, so it may refer to Rattleshirt. But it seems that Mance spent a lot of time south of the Wall, and surely not as a ranger.

Bran Vras, on 17 March 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

When Jon asks for a wet nurse for (what was believed to be) Mance's son. The Norrey and Old Flint came in person and provided each a wet nurse. Here they are at the wedding of Alys Karstarck.



So Old Flint and the Norrey were too old to march with Stannis, but they came at once to Castle Black. How is it that Alys Karstarck's marriage to a Thenn is so important? My guess is that they came for (what was believed to be) Mance's son and perhaps for Val. Whether they knew the Thenns is an open question.

This is strange. They should hate Mance, but they are competing to provide a wet nurse for his son.


I think some of the clans had some agreement with Mance. They are too close to the Wall and too far from Winterfell, and it is obvious that the Watch can't protect them. The King-beyond-the-Wall is in power to stop raiders if he only wants to, and he is very likely to come with an army if they keep ignoring him. So it would be natural for them to try to negotiate.

Bran Vras, on 17 March 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

The other clue comes from Jon's advice to Stannis:



They might have been honored by the coming of a King-beyond-the-Wall who knew a thing or two about fighting their champions, and thus earned their support.

Or they might have come to him...
The clan chiefs and the King-beyond-the-Wall may have a lot in common.

Bran Vras, on 17 March 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

We know how the leaders of the clans are called by their people: The Wull, The Norrey, The Liddle etc and even Eddard Stark becomes "The Ned" in their parlance.

Very interesting.

Bran Vras, on 17 March 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

When I read ASoS, I admired Mance as a brilliant anarchist. Those three posts have painted him successively as an agent manipulated by sorceresses, as a King supported by the mountain clans, and finally as a man of duty and self-sacrifice, perhaps even a Stark loyalist. I am not sure know how to reconcile all these ideas.

I prefer the brilliant anarchist.

And I think he knew that Jon's story was a lie. It was actually a poor story and we know Jon is a bad liar. Maybe Mance thought he would join them for real after a while? He actually did, in a way.

Val the Wildling Princess, on 17 March 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

Awesome thread, thanks! Definitely there's something going on with Mance and his black with red silk cloak. It made me think of Melisandre's red silks too, I bet there is some connection there.

About Dalla and Val. The way Mance met Dalla have always confused me. He said he met her when he was on his way back from Winterfell. But was it south of the Wall or beyond? I mean, did he steal Dalla? Cause it doesn't make sense that he stole her sister too. I took for granted that Dalla and Val met Mance north of the Wall (plus I've always thought, since i knew the story,  that Dalla and Val were daughters of the baby daughter stolen by wildlings 30 years ago from Mors Umber, and that's why Val at least seems to be too well spoken for a wildling)

There is one more thing I find odd: neither Mance nor Val and Dalla seem to have any family. The wildlings live in clans and tribes, everyone has some brothers, sisters, cousins, uncles, at least people from the same village (most likely related somehow). Now they all should be somewhere in Mance's camp. There is no one. And after Mance and Dalla's death nobody except Val shows any interest in their son. Val doesn't even mention any family that could take care of the child. She doesn't ask about anyone after the battle either.



Mance may have already been an orphan, or rejected by his family for some reason, when the Watch took him. But Val and Dalla didn't live somewhere in the woods by themselves, did they?

[brashcandy]

When Mance is telling Jon of how he came to turn his cloak he mentions that Dalla is blameless as it regards his defection, stating that he met her on his return from Winterfell. Now, which return was this exactly? The most recent one when King Robert was visiting? Also he doesn't say that he stole her, but it sounds almost like a chance meeting:

Quote

"My lady is blameless. I met her on my return from your father's castle. The Halfhand was carved of oak, but I am made of flesh, and I have great fondness for the charms of women ...

This leads me to believe that Val and Dalla might not have been wildlings afterall.

[Frey Pie]

Bran Vras, on 18 March 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

-- As King-beyond-the-Wall, Mance wore a helm of iron and bronze with raven wings. Any idea about its significance, beyond the familiar iron=andals, bronze=first men?

I do believe this is being tied in with a possible Mance=Bloodravens son theory and hence the ravens wings.I like the King of the Clans theory the best anyway.Im wondering though if the clans on Skaagos are not important in this aswel somehow.....
It always rang weirdly with me that Mel saved Mance.Mances son had to be sent away so he wouldnt burn because he has kingsblood and then she lets Mance go himself?Very unusual

[Lummel]

Bran Vras, on 18 March 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

-- As King-beyond-the-Wall, Mance wore a helm of iron and bronze with raven wings. Any idea about its significance, beyond the familiar iron=andals, bronze=first men?

Iron and Bronze were the materials that the old Crown of Winter was made from.  Iron is a material not regularly worked by the Wildlings, it's a substance hugely valuable to them for tools or weapons.  In any case it's significant.  It is, at least, a nod to the old crown of Winter if not a claim to a wider Kingship that includes the North South of the Wall as well as the Wildlings - and that's without thinking about the significance of the raven wings.  They might imply a connection to the old gods as divine messengers from the old days when the birds would talk to men (as Bloodraven explained in ADWD).

The crown is a twist on Ran's idea of Jon as King of the Wildlings on account of the personal submission to me of the Wildlings.  In that case if Jon is also heir to the North then he represents a broader conception of kingship that embraces all the people north and south of the Wall (but north of the neck).  The Mance's choice of crown implies a similar conception of Kingship and authority over a northern realm that has been arbitrarily divided by the Wall.

Kaylee, on 18 March 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

Mance may have already been an orphan, or rejected by his family for some reason, when the Watch took him. But Val and Dalla didn't live somewhere in the woods by themselves, did they?

They certainly come across as far more polished and courtly than the likes of Tormund, Harma Dogshead or Craster.  Given the "Up Kneeler" comment I wouldn't think that they were from mainstream Northern society either, but I'm open to thinking that they could be from the clans or Skagos (of which we know nothing but rumours) or from a Wildling group that was in contact, not necessarily regular or constant, with the rest of the World.

Edited by Lummel, 19 March 2012 - 09:40 AM.

[Ser Kevan of Stone Hedge]

Truly thought provoking posts.  A good amount of speculation, obviously, but isn't that what we're all here for?

I think I want some of these things to be true just so Mance will still have a part to play.  Such a unique character.

The bits about the mountain clans seemed the most compelling to me, but at the same time the flimsiest.  The idea that northmen and wildings may have a lot in common both supports and detracts from the theory, IMO.  It lends believability to the idea that the mountain clans would be willing to support a wildling king (because they aren't so different) but it could also account for some of their similarities without implying they are currently or to be later allied.

[Cerulean]

The King of Worms, on 18 March 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

Ygitte told Jon about Mance searching through all those graves in the frost fangs for the Horn of Winter. Mance admitted to Jon that the horn Melisandre burned was not the real horn.
For some reason Melisandre spares him using a glammer to use him for ??? even though you would think that she would WANT to burn him in her fires for Stannis.
Lady Dustin's strange interest in the crypts, and Theon notices those swords are missing... and didn't Bran's maester say that there were crypts under Winterfell no one has visited in centuries... a lot of foreshadowing...
The Horn is down there and Mance is trying to get a hold of it.

I have made that conjecture myself.  All the talk of "ghosts in winterfell" etc., but I had wondered from the beginning if maybe the real Horn of Winter, or perhaps a cache of dragonglass wasn't hidden down in the more ancient Stark crypts that date back to the beginning of Winterfell itself, or the end of the first Long Night.

[Bran Vras]

brashcandy, on 18 March 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

This leads me to believe that Val and Dalla might not have been wildlings after all.

Kaylee, on 18 March 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

Mance may have already been an orphan, or rejected by his family for some reason, when the Watch took him. But Val and Dalla didn't live somewhere in the woods by themselves, did they?

Lummel, on 19 March 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

They certainly come across as far more polished and courtly than the likes of Tormund, Harma Dogshead or Craster.  Given the "Up Kneeler" comment I wouldn't think that they were from mainstream Northern society either, but I'm open to thinking that they could be from the clans or Skagos (of which we know nothing but rumours) or from a Wildling group that was in contact, not necessarily regular or constant, with the rest of the World.

Indeed, Val's manner of speaking shows that she is not an ordinary wildling (I have compared to Osha, Ygritte etc). She seems as sophisticated as a member of the northern nobility. I am particularly puzzled by her return to the expedition to find Tormund in the wilderness:

Quote

Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well ... but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold.

Val promised Jon to return by the full moon. It seems to me that her whiteness evokes the moon. Note that the white bearskin is a hallmark of the Umber. GRRM makes her eye colour vary between pale grey and blue. Where could she have found such fine clothes? Tormund was fighting and losing a war against the white walkers and the whole wildling population was living in terror.

I thought again about Mance's expeditions beyond the Wall. If Osha went to Skagos with Rickon, as it is widely suspected, it means Osha has already been there, possibly with Mance. That could justify Val's origin in Skagos (which is not inconceivably on the way back from  Winterfell to beyond the Wall, especially since Hother Umber mentions that wildlings are seen navigating around Eastwatch in ACoK).

Mance certainly had prepared for what would happen after his conquest of the Wall, if he had not lost to Stannis. He knew his host wouldn't be able to fight the armies of the Seven Kingdoms eventually. I guess he has negotiated as many alliances as possible in the North, possibly including Skagos, and the old gods know what else.

Edited by Bran Vras, 19 March 2012 - 05:15 PM.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Bran Vras, on 19 March 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

Indeed, Val's manner of speaking shows that she is not an ordinary wildling (I have compared to Osha, Ygritte etc). She seems as sophisticated as a member of the northern nobility. I am particularly puzzled by her return to the expedition to find Tormund in the wilderness:

Val promised Jon to return by the full moon. It seems to me that her whiteness evokes the moon. Note that the white bearskin is a hallmark of the Umber. GRRM makes her eye colour vary between pale grey and blue. Where could she have found such fine clothes? Tormund was fighting and losing a war against the white walkers and the whole wildling population was living in terror.

I thought again about Mance's expeditions beyond the Wall. If Osha went to Skagos with Rickon, as it is widely suspected, it means Osha has already been there, possibly with Mance. That could justify Val's origin in Skagos (which is not inconceivably on the way back from  Winterfell to beyond the Wall, especially since Hother Umber mentions that wildlings are seen navigating around Eastwatch in ACoK).

Mance certainly had prepared for what would happen after his conquest of the Wall, if he had not lost to Stannis. He knew his host wouldn't be able to fight the armies of the Seven Kingdoms eventually. I guess he has negotiated as many alliances as possible in the North, possibly including Skagos, and the old gods know what else.

She says to Jon in the same chapter that Dalla had given her those clothes, so I suppose she took them with her when she left the Wall or she had them hidden somewhere in the woods. I don't know if Val and Dalla were always wildlings or Mance met them south of the Wall but it just seems odd that as we know, Val follows the "wildling ways", I mean, she stole Jarl for herself

[bemused]

With the wildlings' raiding ways, it's not surprising that some will be better spoken than others. I can easily see the sisters as originating below the wall ,or being raised by someone who did, but as Val ( the poster ) points out, they were thoroughly adapted to the life of the free folk.

As for Val's clothes , I'm not sure that outside of beyond-the-wall or perhaps, the North ,they would be seen as particularly fine . Snow bears are hunted . I'm sure weaving is not unknown among the wildlings. They have goats..surely goats with a long coat would  do best beyond the wall. In our world, long-coated goats give beautiful soft wool .....and wool and cloth can also be traded for.

Edited by bemused, 20 March 2012 - 01:20 AM.

[MarianneSnow]

brashcandy, on 17 March 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Bran, I love your suggestion that Mel could have come from beyond the wall, and I do think it's credible that both Qhorin and Mance have been operating under the influence of the Red God for a time (or playing both sides). What I find interesting is when Mance and the other rangers went to find the wisewoman she was "dead" and they were taken care of by her daughter. Was the old woman really dead, or had she gone somewhere else. Was the old woman actually the young girl wearing a glamor to appear younger for some reason?

Just a thought: Melisandre herself might be very very old.

Anyways, if Mel is from beyond the wall it could explain why her powers are stronger there:

[/i]

We also know that Mel was taken very early as a slave at the Red Temple, and only seems to remember snatches of her past in the name "Melony" and "Lot seven".

This I thought was super interesting and maybe the reason that Mel doesn't burn Mance right away...Is she the healer for Mance???  was she a slave on the boat that washed up upon the shore with the red silk??? Does Mance actually say she was a wilding...Maybe she had been there for sometime eventually giving her that title?


I was questioning when and why, all of a sudden, there is a Rhllor presence on Dragonstone in Queen Selyse. All most as if Mel knew something was going down and needed to influence someone in power.  Why not the brother of a King?  Mance was gathering the wildings before the death of Robert so, they probably would have invaided anyway and I know Davos convinced Stannis to go North with Mel but I am sure she pushed it along?  Just a thought...

Edited by MarianneSnow, 20 March 2012 - 11:22 AM.

[The King of Worms]

<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Mance says something in aSoS to Jon about his own wildling blood: &quot;The wildling blood is the blood of the First Men, the same blood that flows in the veins of the Starks.&quot;</p>
<p>At the end of this chapter Jon convinces Mance that he has truly turned his cloak with &quot;You say you were at Winterfell the night my father feasted King Robert. Did you see where I was seated? Did you see where they put the bastard?&quot; So Mance knows Jon was excluded from the feast as a bastard and was pissed about it. Seems like he identifies with that feeling of being a bastard.</p>
<p>Anyway, I think this is a hint that Mance may somehow be a bastard of the Starks as well... The Starks always have a second or third son on the Wall serving as rangers... its a tradition going way back. Jon may not be first Stark to live among the wildlings and have himself a wildling girl. Maybe Mance&#39;s father was also was a Stark who broke his vows with a wildling...&nbsp;</p>
<div>It also goes along with this idea that there were old, old Starks that once were once Lords beyond the Wall. The Fist of the First Men was this highly defensible location overlooking huge tracts of land. Underneath it, Ghost dug up that cache of dragon-glass. Could the Fist be the ruins of an old Stark stronghold, worn down, grown and covered over by time? The Starks are the blood of the First Men and Kings in the North from before the Andals came and before the Wall was there. They are stone-builders and honor their ancestors with stone crypts... so the crypts in the Frostfangs must be Stark crypts... it only makes sense.&nbsp;</div>
<div>Mance has great knowledge of the history and lore of the North and the Starks. He could have learned much from blind Aemon and his books, but why would a young fighting lad be so interested in such lore if not for personal reasons like his bastard origin, and could he have discovered lost secrets of the Starks that he has hidden in winterfell or just kept to himself. Mance&#39;s reasons for turning his cloak may be the freedom represented by the black-and-red-silk cloak, but I think there is more to it, like that he has been searching for some ancient heirloom-thing of the old Starks for most of his adult life, an obsession brought on by feelings about his own bastard origins.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>

[Lummel]

Off topic but I doubt that the fist of the first men was meant to be primarily a defensive structure - it has no water supply after all.  I imagine it was a ceremonial centre like the Hill of Tara in Ireland or Dunadd in Scotland.

[brashcandy]

MarianneSnow, on 20 March 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

This I thought was super interesting and maybe the reason that Mel doesn't burn Mance right away...Is she the healer for Mance???  was she a slave on the boat that washed up upon the shore with the red silk??? Does Mance actually say she was a wilding...Maybe she had been there for sometime eventually giving her that title?


I was questioning when and why, all of a sudden, there is a Rhllor presence on Dragonstone in Queen Selyse. All most as if Mel knew something was going down and needed to influence someone in power.  Why not the brother of a King?  Mance was gathering the wildings before the death of Robert so, they probably would have invaided anyway and I know Davos convinced Stannis to go North with Mel but I am sure she pushed it along?  Just a thought...

Hmmm, interesting thoughts
I think it's more likely that she could have been a wildling child traded for goods by her family. She remembers a woman crying that name, and then a man calling out Lot seven. I'm thinking that either the two memories are separated by time and space, or the slave auction took place right where the ship docked in Northern territory. Melisandre would have still been a very young child, around 3 or 4.(wildlings wait until a child is past two to give them a name). The "Lot Seven" is also curious. Besides referencing the group of slaves that she might have been in, it's also noteworthy given that this is name of the religion that Mel converts Stannis from - we see him burning a sept early in ACOK.

As for the girl who healed Mance, it's strange that we never hear of her again. Where did she go? Did she have children eventually? Obviously she possessed important folk knowledge on healing that would have been valuable to pass on to future generations. And it seems logical to think that when Mance deserted from the NW he would have at least gone looking for her to let her know how her gift had inspired him to leave the Watch. Besides, I'm of the opinion that there was a powerful attraction between Mance and this woman that inspired her to use this cloth in the first place, and made him want to leave the Watch where "kisses" aren't a crime.

It would appear as though all the Red Priests can sense the return of this great Other, and are aligning themselves with various powerful factions in the anticipation of glory and praise for their assistance a la Moqorro with Victarion.

[Arya Targaryen]

Excellent thread! I love Mance and I would really like an interesting plotline for him (and not being flayed by Ramsey).
I like the idea of him being a Flint. That would explain a lot, and it would make him and Jon kins without him being a Stark. I hope it's true.
As for Val and Dalla: I never got the feeling that they may come from south of the Wall. Val knew the Haunted forest well enough to go and find Tormund. She just didn't have the time to learn it after they met Mance (it was about a year or so?)

As for Mance may have written the letter to Jon: Can he write? Most black brothers can't and I don't think he had many opportunity to learn it beyond the Wall.

[ishmael]

brashcandy, on 17 March 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

Here's an interesting tidbit that could indicate that Mance was under some influence by wearing the red and black cloak:

Are you suggesting that Mance, as we know him, is actually a glamor for someone else?

[MtnLion]

Arya Targaryen, on 20 March 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

As for Mance may have written the letter to Jon: Can he write? Most black brothers can't and I don't think he had many opportunity to learn it beyond the Wall.

Most black brothers may be stewards and builders, and very very few of those would work with the Maester in the rookery.  Rangers would be equipped with ravens to report while ranging, and having been raised from childhood with the Night's Watch Mance may well have learned a great deal from a much younger Maester Aermon.

As for reading, it sure seems that story of the the horn and its possible whereabouts would be library material, possibly the NW library.  Sam has been delving into some very old documents therein.

[Arya Targaryen]

Question: how old is Mance? I would put him somewhere between 30 and 35, based on the fact that Jon recalls the young black brother in Winterfell, when he was about 4.
Well, a 4-year-old boy won't call a man of his father's age "young" I think. Ned was about 24 (?) at the time, Mance must have been younger. About 12 years have passed, so that would put Mance around 35 (or even younger).
Any idea?

[Bran Vras]

Val the Wildling Princess, on 19 March 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

She says to Jon in the same chapter that Dalla had given her those clothes, so I suppose she took them with her when she left the Wall or she had them hidden somewhere in the woods. I don't know if Val and Dalla were always wildlings or Mance met them south of the Wall but it just seems odd that as we know, Val follows the "wildling ways", I mean, she stole Jarl for herself

Thank you. I missed that interesting bit. Perhaps it's time to say a thing or two about Dalla. That won't be long since Dalla utters a grand total of five sentences in ASoS, and doesn't appear in the other books:

Quote

“We free folk know things you kneelers have forgotten. Sometimes the short road is not the safest, Jon Snow. The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it.”

(Jon quotes this pronouncement in ADwD, but has forgotten the Horned Lord part. Val reminds Jon of it once more later.) and a moment later

Quote

“But once the Wall is fallen,” Dalla said, “what will stop the Others?”.

Mance and Dalla seemed very close. Dalla attended councils, even when Tormund was excluded. She didn't say a word when Jon and Mance met the first time. Since Mance is present in the conversation above, and certainly knowledgeable about wildling folklore, it's significant that the bit of ancient lore comes from her mouth and not Mance's, as if she were the authority in this matter.

The Horned Lord lived so long ago, that it curious to attribute the saying to him. It's a rare instance of a proverb with an ancient attribution. I suspect a strong continuity in oral history (when Jon repeats the maxim to Melisandre, he attributes it to Dalla and forgets the Horned Lord part.) and probably a particular reverence for this King-beyond-the-Wall we know nothing about (except that he was important enough to be recognized in the sky as a constellation).

Now I wonder about the white clothes with the weirwood pin. Are they some ceremonial clothes? an evocation of the moon? Are they the garments Dalla wore for her wedding? Why were they given to Val (Val did not inherit them after Dalla's death)? Is it because they weren't needed anymore? Or because Val gained some status along with the clothes? Jon seems mesmerized when he sees her. Is the white the antithesis of the black cloak of the Night's Watch?

A few more minor questions and remarks:

1) Does Mance play on words? He replies to Dalla last sentence:

Quote

“It’s a wise woman I’ve found. A true queen.”

His cloak was one sewn by a wisewoman (his own word). And he says about himself

Quote

I have a great fondness for the charms of women  

Is it a hint of his attraction for wood witches, sorceresses etc, including, perhaps, Dalla?

2)  This is probably nothing: We saw Dalla three times and every time she stood close to the fire, and even tending it the first two times.

3) There is something I can't make sense of in the baby switch. We know that Craster's son is older than Mance's son. Here is Jon with Melisandre and Stannis.

Quote

“Mother’s milk is all they share. Gilly’s son is larger and more robust. He kicks the prince and pinches him, and shoves him from the breast. Craster was his father, a cruel man and greedy, and blood tells.”

Here is Jon thinking when Gilly is about to leave the Wall with Sam.

Quote

Gilly’s boy was older, Dalla’s more robust, but they were close enough in age and size so that no one who did not know them well would be able to easily tell one from the other.

Here is Sam in AFfC, before being told about the switch.

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Gilly’s little son may die as well, he’s not as large and strong as Dalla’s boy.

I am not entirely sure what to think. It seems that Gilly's son is the stronger one.
How is it then that shortly before the term of the pregnancy, Jon sees Dalla from the Wall

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Dalla looked so big it was a wonder she could move.

which seems to imply that Mance's son is probably the larger baby. All this leads me to an additional little point.

4) When Theon returns to the Iron Islands, he meets Asha in the guise of Esgred, :

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Ho, Bluetooth,” she shouted to a passing seafarer, a tall man in bearskin vest and raven-winged helm. “How fares your bride?”
“Fat with child, and talking of twins.”
“So soon?” Esgred smiled that wicked smile. “You got your oar in the water quickly.”
“Aye, and stroked and stroked and stroked,” roared the man.
“A big man,” Theon observed. “Bluetooth, was it? Should I choose him for my Sea Bitch?”
“Only if you mean to insult him. Bluetooth has a sweet ship of his own.”

(Of course I don't think the man is Mance. But the raven-winged helm gave me pause, and the twins as well.)

We never saw again Bluetooth. But he probably married and fathered children at the same time than Mance. So there could be some foreshadowing here. If Dalla's baby was so remarkably cumbersome in the belly despite being frail compared to Craster's son, I wonder if another child wasn't born and hidden. In any case, it would interesting to know the story behind Bluetooth's helm.

Edited by Bran Vras, 20 March 2012 - 07:33 PM.