108 replies to this topic

[brashcandy]

@Bran Vras,
- I wondered about his use of word charms as well. It could be nothing, or it could suggest exactly what you said about his involvement with witches et al.

- your question on the size of the babies is curious. I wonder if it isn't something to do with Gilly's milk that made her little boy so rubust. Do we hear anything about the size of the baby later on AFFC that indicates it's getting stronger?

- the mystery on Dalla continues. Do we ever get an idea of just how old she and Val are?

[Arya Targaryen]

Bran Vras, on 20 March 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

3) There is something I can't make sense of in the baby switch. We know that Craster's son is older than Mance's son. Here is Jon with Melisandre and Stannis.

Here is Jon thinking when Gilly is about to leave the Wall with Sam.

Here is Sam in AFfC, before being told about the switch.

I am not entirely sure what to think. It seems that Gilly's son is the stronger one.
How is it then that shortly before the term of the pregnancy, Jon sees Dalla from the Wall

which seems to imply that Mance's son is probably the larger baby. All this leads me to an additional little point.

That bit was actually clear to me.
The two boys were close of age, and Mance's were the bigger one. Those who were there with Gilly when she fed the boys, this is clear. So Sam, Jon, Val, Gilly knew that.
But Stannis never cared. He had no idea which boy is the bigger.
When Jon mentions he wants to send away Gilly because HER son is bigger, he clearly lies (he even think "careful, now careful"). Jon wants to send Mance's son away, and he is the bigger one. If Stannis means to check it, he will look for the bigger boy, because Jon told him it's Gilly's son, and he doesn't know the boys and can't tell them from one another.
Sam doesn't know Jon wants to send Mance's son with Gilly. And he knows Gilly's son is the smaller, weaker one, therefore he has less chance to survive the journey. He wasn't there when Gilly picked up one boy, so he couldn't compare them. When he saw the boy with Gilly he was wrapped up in furs so there was no way to tell which one he was.

When I read that bit in ADWD when Jon tells Stannis Gilly's boy is the bigger one, I thought immediately "smart, that is smart!"

[Bran Vras]

Arya Targaryen, on 21 March 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

That bit was actually clear to me.
The two boys were close of age, and Mance's were the bigger one. Those who were there with Gilly when she fed the boys, this is clear. So Sam, Jon, Val, Gilly knew that.
But Stannis never cared. He had no idea which boy is the bigger.
When Jon mentions he wants to send away Gilly because HER son is bigger, he clearly lies (he even think "careful, now careful"). Jon wants to send Mance's son away, and he is the bigger one. If Stannis means to check it, he will look for the bigger boy, because Jon told him it's Gilly's son, and he doesn't know the boys and can't tell them from one another.
Sam doesn't know Jon wants to send Mance's son with Gilly. And he knows Gilly's son is the smaller, weaker one, therefore he has less chance to survive the journey. He wasn't there when Gilly picked up one boy, so he couldn't compare them. When he saw the boy with Gilly he was wrapped up in furs so there was no way to tell which one he was.

When I read that bit in ADWD when Jon tells Stannis Gilly's boy is the bigger one, I thought immediately "smart, that is smart!"

It seems you are right. Dalla's son is stronger and quieter. Aemon, being blind, could tell which one was the squalling one and wasn't fooled.

[Arya Targaryen]

I don't think Aemon recognized the child. He recognized Gilly's pain. Sam never expected Jon to do a baby switch, because it seems really cruel (and it is, of course). Aemon knew Jon much better, and he knew Jon would do it in order to save the child. So he could put two and two together.

[Nymeria Star-Eyes]

Another little detail that makes me think Mel is wearing a glamor:

We know she was a slave and sold to one of the red temples (because she studied there and most, if not all, of their priests are slaves), and we know that they tattooed their slaves with red flames.

Yes, we hear that most of the tattooing of slaves goes on in Volantis, and Mel may or may not have been sold there. However, from what Tyrion observes after the Selaesori Qhoran: "The three surviving fiery fingers had not been sold yet, but they were chattels of the Lord of Light and could count on being bought back by some red temple. The flames tattooed upon their faces were their binders," it seems that red flame tattoos are not isolated to Volantis, but are a mark for all red temples.

Melisandre has no tattoo, and no scar (like the old woman in Volantis), so she must be glamoring herself.

I'm not sure if she's originally a wildling or not. It wouldn't matter what she looks like, because her crazy red hair and eyes are obviously unnatural anyway, but she does have an accent from Essos. She would have to have been sold very young so that she could have gained an accent in a red temple.

I like the idea that she's somehow related to the red silk from Asshai, but I'm not sure if she was actually the woman who healed Mance. She doesn't seem like the kind of person that would hide away in the middle of the north healing random passersby when there are politicians to convert and people to burn. She came to Westeros with a distinct purpose and I don't know how living as a wilding would help her. Unless she was trying to find some things out about the power of the Great Other in the north and wilding religious practices.

How old would she be, if she was the witch that helped Mance? I don't get the sense think she's ancient, because she seems to be missing the crucial wisdom that very old characters in this series often exhibit (Cressen, Olenna, Luwin, Aemon), if her track record with prophecies is anything to go on. Of course, if she's glamored the whole time she could be any age, but it wouldn't make sense for her to be living through multiple generations as grandmother, mother, and daughter witch (a la some Roose theories I've read).

Does anyone know of any other red priests without tattoos? Thoros? Hmmm. I don't think he's glamored, but there may be another explanation.

I saw it mentioned in another thread: Abel is an anagram of Bael. I'm pretty sure Mance did this intentionally, rather than it just being a little nod from GRRM, so it indicates that he probably can read, and that he has more than a passing interest in the legends of Bael.

[Lummel]

Nymeria Star-Eyes, on 22 March 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

...Does anyone know of any other red priests without tattoos? Thoros? Hmmm. I don't think he's glamored, but there may be another explanation.

I saw it mentioned in another thread: Abel is an anagram of Bael. I'm pretty sure Mance did this intentionally, rather than it just being a little nod from GRRM, so it indicates that he probably can read, and that he has more than a passing interest in the legends of Bael.

Only those priests who are slaves would be tattooed.  Thoros needn't have been a slave, slave priests seem to be a Volantine speciality while Rh'llorism seems fairly widely spread in the free cities.  But given the Melony lot seven I am also in the camp that thinks that Melisandre was a slave and probably is glamoured.

I don't think you need to be literate to make an anagram.  In Mance's case he is playing with sounds switching from Ba to Ab.  Literacy is unusual on the Wall after all.

[Lummel]

Bran Vras, on 10 March 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

...A Tale of Red and Black...

I like that you've picked up on the colour significance.  GRRM spends time associating colours with houses, with people or as symbols (the blue rose).  It would be strange to forget all this when presented with a red and black cloak.

The black cloak is patched with red specifically.  Not another colour or a mixture of colours.  Is this an unconscious parody of the colours of house targaryen which tells us that Mance is a mock King?  A link to Bloodraven or others of Targaryen blood who might be Mances actual or spirtual father?  Does it just symbolise Kingship?
Or does this associate him with their words "Fire and Blood" and link him to the fire side of the song of ice and fire?

[Bran Vras]

Lummel, on 22 March 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

I like that you've picked up on the colour significance.  GRRM spends time associating colours with houses, with people or as symbols (the blue rose).  It would be strange to forget all this when presented with a red and black cloak.

The black cloak is patched with red specifically.  Not another colour or a mixture of colours.  Is this an unconscious parody of the colours of house targaryen which tells us that Mance is a mock King?  A link to Bloodraven or others of Targaryen blood who might be Mances actual or spirtual father?  Does it just symbolise Kingship?
Or does this associate him with their words "Fire and Blood" and link him to the fire side of the song of ice and fire?

Besides the reference to Stendhal, it's difficult to say much about the significance of colours.  I had several ideas in mind in the OP.

1) Nobody has commented on the parallel I tried to draw with Aegon's cloak (and yes, that refers to the Targaryen colours, as Griff notes when he sees Aegon being prepared). Aegon seems, just like Mance, to be an unusually bright fellow who attempts to become King. I wonder if Aegon's cloak is not sewn with the same red silk as Mance's is. I suspect Septa Lemore to have prepared the cloak, if it doesn't come from Illyrio.

2) I suspect that Aegon's impression on the Golden Company has relied on non-entirely natural means. I am note sure whether this is due to his ruby or his cloak (the same tokens wore by Mance). The conquest of the Kingship-beyond-the-Wall seems quite miraculous, given that Mance started as a crow. After all, Mance says that the sewing of the cloak was the "greatest gift" he received from the wisewoman. Mance's "great fondness for the charms of women" might be a hint of the non-natural help he got from the cloak.

3) It might be significant or not, but I keep in mind that Red and Black are the colours of House Qorgyle (black scorpions on red, or the converse).

[Lummel]

Stendhal is very good.  The Night's Watch are priestly in their celibacy and clothing afterall!

The difference between Mance's position and Aegon's is that a smart man can make himself King north of the Wall purely and openly on the basis of his smartness alone whereas south of the Wall legitmacy and blood come into it rather than just ability or suitabilty for the job.

The other two ideas are intriguing.  So we have the idea that red silk from asshai may have a magical quality and create a glamour of kingliness or authority.   Then secondly sucession to authority through murder, by killing a powerful man you become a powerful man like the King of Nemi.

[Lykos]

Maybe that´s why GRRM lets Melisandre go on at length about the trappings of power, and then calls for Mance / Rattleshirt and explains in detail how the glamour works.  in ADWD Melisandre.



Edit typos.

Edited by Lykos, 22 March 2012 - 11:56 AM.

[Lykos]

@Lummel
The "Golden Bough", placed in the grove by Aeneas the progenitor of romans, who fled the burning Troy, reminds me very much Aenar Targaryen whose daughter suposedly predicted the doom of Valyria.
But I think GRRM fused a lot of Mythology in ASoIaF.  I was telling parts of the story to a friend recently and he said that´s the epic of Gilgamesh.

[Lummel]

Yes Aeneas has that vision / prophecy/ is shown by the spirits of the dead of the apotheosis of his family and their future history which I agree is very much like our Aenar Targaryen.

Don't see the Gilgamesh connection through.

[Lykos]

Gilgamesh was a violent ruler, whe he insisted on deflowering the maidens before their wedding, his people prayed to the gods.  The gods sent Enkidu a wild man raised by animals.  A woman seduced and  civilised him.  Gilgamesh and Enkidu wrestle for days and become best friends in the end, when Enkidu dies Gilgamesh realises mortality.  He tries to gain immortality but is robbed of it by a snake, that sheds its skin and is young again, it regains its youth, in this quest Gilgamesh gains wisdom and becomes a wise ruler.  In one of Gilgamesh´s adventures, he and Enkidu defeat a giant who guards the cedar forests, to get the wood  for building.  The Sumerian  believe knows seven heavens and the Babylonian Wall was one of the original wonders of the world.    That was long after Gilgamesh,though.

ETA:  There is the story of a deluge in the epic also,  only the birds that were sent out afterwards differ from the bible a little.  Dove and swallow come back with no news.  Only when a raven is sent it discovers land.

Edited by Lykos, 22 March 2012 - 01:16 PM.

[Lummel]

Still don't see the connection apart from a few details that overlap.  The central story of Gilgamesh lives it up, discovers a fear of mortality through his eventual friend Enkidu and goes on a quest to find the secret of eternal life doesn't seem similar to me   .

Edited by Lummel, 22 March 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[Bran Vras]

Lummel, on 22 March 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

The difference between Mance's position and Aegon's is that a smart man can make himself King north of the Wall purely and openly on the basis of his smartness alone whereas south of the Wall legitmacy and blood come into it rather than just ability or suitabilty for the job.

You are right that the analogy has its limits. So far, Mance is easily the more capable of the two.

Lummel, on 22 March 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

The other two ideas are intriguing.  So we have the idea that red silk from asshai may have a magical quality and create a glamour of kingliness or authority.  

Red silk does appear from time to time in the story, besides Melisandre. Notably Rhaegar had a scarf of red silk when he fought the tourney at Harrenhal.  Yes, I suspect him to have played not entirely by the rules of chivalry then (and he had rubies too). (But I don't want to be systematic with the use of red silk: Lord Rosby regularly coughs in a handkerchief of red silk.)

Lummel, on 22 March 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Then secondly sucession to authority through murder, by killing a powerful man you become a powerful man like the King of Nemi.

Lykos, on 22 March 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

@Lummel
The "Golden Bough", placed in the grove by Aeneas the progenitor of romans, who fled the burning Troy, reminds me very much Aenar Targaryen whose daughter suposedly predicted the doom of Valyria.
But I think GRRM fused a lot of Mythology in ASoIaF.  I was telling parts of the story to a friend recently and he said that´s the epic of Gilgamesh.

The story of the Prince of Pentos is the one that made me think of the Golden Bough (of which I have only second hand knowledge, at best). But that has been noted in the Heresy thread, hasn't it? I simply thought, following FanTasy original idea (which seemed reasonable) that killing the Lord Commander would give Mance enough prestige to hope to become King-beyond-the-Wall. But Lummel might be right to see more in this. I suppose the Lord Commander can be seen as a sort of a king.

That makes me think that Mance says that

Quote

You don’t become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won’t follow a name, and they don’t care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they’d sooner fight than follow.

I wonder if the other pretenders can be identified, they might even not have lived beyond the Wall.

[Lykos]

I think GRRM uses patterns of mythology and history to tell his own story.  And as I said I only told parts of ASoIF.  I could elaborate but since it doesn´t concern this topic, we should probably find or start a thread on the influences on ASoIF.

Back to the black and red of Mance´s cloak, I´m shure it is significant and probably in more than one way.  I´m tending towards  the dornish Qorgyle connection as parallel to Jon Snow being like a son to the old Bear.  The other thing I like is the idea that the red silk from Asshai story points to a slavers´ cog.

ETA:   I´m reminded of Arminius, who betrayed Varus.  Arminius was raised by the romans and gained the trust of Varus.

Edited by Lykos, 22 March 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[Bran Vras]

I noticed something I find interesting. In ADwD we read

Quote

It was snowing, and Varamyr had lost his own cloaks at the Wall. His sleeping pelts and woolen smallclothes, his sheepskin boots and fur-lined gloves, his store of mead and hoarded food, the hanks of hair he took from the women he bedded, even the golden arm rings Mance had given him, all lost and left behind.

I recall that Tormund's armbands (ASoS)

Quote

Thick gold bands graven with runes bound his massive arms,

also came from Mance, but I can't find the passage. Moreover, Craster has another precious object besides his axe (ACoK)

Quote

Craster’s sheepskin jerkin and cloak of sewn skins made a shabby contrast, but around one thick wrist was a heavy ring that had the glint of gold.

1) What is the story behind golden armbands with runes binding people?
2) We know that Mance had visited Craster. Was a golden ring missing from Craster's other arm?

Edited by Bran Vras, 23 March 2012 - 05:33 AM.

[fassreiter]

Always glad if I can help:

Quote

“Har!” Tormund laughed. That had not changed either; he still laughed easily and often. “Wise words. I’d not want you crows to peck me to death.” He slapped Jon’s back. “When all my folk are safe behind your Wall, we’ll share a bit o’ meat and mead. Till then …” The wildling pulled off the band from his left arm and tossed it at Jon, then did the same with its twin upon his right. “Your first payment. Had those from my father and him from his. Now they’re yours, you thieving black bastard.”
The armbands were old gold, solid and heavy, engraved with the ancient runes of the First Men. Tormund Giantsbane had worn them as long as Jon had known him; they had seemed as much a part of him as his beard. “The Braavosi will melt these down for the gold. That seems a shame. Perhaps you ought to keep them.”
“No. I’ll not have it said that Tormund Thunderfist made the free folk give up their treasures whilst he kept his own.” He grinned. “But I’ll keep the ring I wear about me member. Much bigger than those little things. On you it’d be a torque.”

Tormund's armband is not from Mance.

On the significance of the cloak: You might want to keep in mind that Mance did not just 'glamour' a sense of kingly authority around him, as you suggest. In fact, Jon doesn't recognize him as any possible candidate for the King-Beyond-the-Wall on their first meeting, it's not until he gets to know him that he acknowledges his position. Same goes for Tormund and the Magnar and three unknown wildlings (these three clearly being free folk, if you read the passage again there is no way of interpreting it otherwise) who wouldn't just accept his leadership, but made a fight for it. Three times, in fact, in case of the almighty Styr. Also it is said that he spent of years of talking to clans and making peace between the many different groups who were fighting each other, and this is how he gained his position. If he had had some magic cloak, it wouldn't have taken such a long time, right? Besides, it would take away everything that is awesome about the character: personal history, identity, badassery. I am not sure why GRRM should create such a character in the first place, only to reveal that everything is a trick. Nah. Otherwise, nice ideas on this thread.

[Bran Vras]

fassreiter, on 23 March 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

Tormund's armband is not from Mance.

On the significance of the cloak: You might want to keep in mind that Mance did not just 'glamour' a sense of kingly authority around him, as you suggest. In fact, Jon doesn't recognize him as any possible candidate for the King-Beyond-the-Wall on their first meeting, it's not until he gets to know him that he acknowledges his position. Same goes for Tormund and the Magnar and three unknown wildlings (these three clearly being free folk, if you read the passage again there is no way of interpreting it otherwise) who wouldn't just accept his leadership, but made a fight for it. Three times, in fact, in case of the almighty Styr. Also it is said that he spent of years of talking to clans and making peace between the many different groups who were fighting each other, and this is how he gained his position. If he had had some magic cloak, it wouldn't have taken such a long time, right? Besides, it would take away everything that is awesome about the character: personal history, identity, badassery. I am not sure why GRRM should create such a character in the first place, only to reveal that everything is a trick. Nah. Otherwise, nice ideas on this thread.

Thank you for the quote.

You make good points about the fact that Mance had to fight to earn his kingship. I hadn't forgotten that Mance said that wildlings follow "figthers". I still think that the resemblance with Aegon's cloak, with the Targaryens colours, is not a coincidence. Whether the red silk's magic worked for Mance or bound him to some power remains to be seen.

What's next with Mance? When he is, as Rattleshirt with Melisandre, Jon, Stannis etc:

Quote

Jon was aghast. “Your Grace, this man cannot be trusted. If I keep him here, someone will slit his throat for him. If I send him ranging, he’ll just go back over to the wildlings.”
“Not me. I’m done with those bloody fools.”

I think Val realized that a switched happened with Rattleshirt. First, she seemed distressed when she learnt that Mance was to be executed and she even offered to marry a kneeler to save her king. During the execution she did not seem troubled at all. In fact, when Rattleshirt swore fealty to Stannis she attended the scene and

Quote

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away.

Val did not seem to like Melisandre, but she has a certain understanding of her sorcery. Could she have interceded somehow?

Edited by Bran Vras, 23 March 2012 - 04:43 PM.

[Black Crow]

Nymeria Star-Eyes, on 22 March 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

Does anyone know of any other red priests without tattoos? Thoros? Hmmm. I don't think he's glamored, but there may be another explanation.

Slightly off topic, but I've been wondering about this one. He may not be hiding behind a glamour because when he's with the brotherhood he's lost weight and looking a shadow of his former self - unless of course he always looked that way and has stopped using the fat jolly glamour because it would look suspicious when everybody else around him is getting a lean and hungry look.

What makes me suspicious is that way back in AGoT he went into that tournament melee wielding a flaming sword without any mention of armour. He then got, and I quote "brained" by a mace. Reading first time around I very naturally took that to mean he had his head bashed in and was therefore a bit surprised when he popped up again a few pages later as lively and jolly as ever. Was he just playing the buffoon to hide the fact that like Mel and Moqorro he's dead and glamoured?