104 replies to this topic

[PrinceHenryris]

I like the Hooded Man theory.  Maybe Benjen met up with BR and/or CH somewhere along the line and went South on their council?

[Alys Karstark]

"Wherever Rangers go"

[CardMaster24]

Benjen Stark has to be alive because there is no other legitimate way to prove R + L = J

I think he must be searching for the children because he saw the others, it is the only way how he would be alive

[bayrodney]

Always in the appendix of any ASOIAF book it's noted that he is 'presumed dead'. However, who are the 'house' family lineages written by in the back of the book? is it from the perspective of GRRM, or a fictional character's perspective within each house?

I think leaving this question so open could mean anything from GRRM hasn't decided his fate yet to GRRM has a HUGE part in store for Benjen to play. I'm hoping it's the latter.

[alienarea]

As I have assumed in the Heresy 7 thread:

alienarea, on 11 March 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

....
Finally, Benjen. He hasn't stopped by Craster for some years. But he was the First Ranger. I speculate he me Bloodraven and/or Coldhands and learned something. I speculate it is his cloak that Ghost has discovered with the dragonglass and that Benjen made a journey to the LOAW for a new pact as he is the oldest male Stark. But he failed and got sacrificed, this is what Bran saw when he saw the LOAW. He cried for Benjen.

[kissdbyfire]

CardMaster24, on 12 March 2012 - 02:11 AM, said:

Benjen Stark has to be alive because there is no other legitimate way to prove R + L = J

If R+L=J (and I believe that), there are others who know, namely, Howland Reed, Wylla the wet nurse (there's no reason to believe she's not alive), and Bran/BR through the weirnet.

[Black Crow]

Kissdbyfire, on 12 March 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

If R+L=J (and I believe that), there are others who know, namely, Howland Reed, Wylla the wet nurse (there's no reason to believe she's not alive), and Bran/BR through the weirnet.

Knowledge means little in this case. If Jon is simply a Targaryen prince he isn't going to get very far saying I'm the son of Rhaegar and the rightful heir to the Iron throne on account of that little frog eater says so. At best he'll be invited to join the queue.

On the other hand if Jon is trained to use his ancient powers as the Ice Dragon he'll create his own legitimacy.

[kissdbyfire]

Black Crow, on 12 March 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

Knowledge means little in this case. If Jon is simply a Targaryen prince he isn't going to get very far saying I'm the son of Rhaegar and the rightful heir to the Iron throne on account of that little frog eater says so. At best he'll be invited to join the queue.

On the other hand if Jon is trained to use his ancient powers as the Ice Dragon he'll create his own legitimacy.

I was simply trying to remember and list the people who would know if R+L=J.

[Black Crow]

Probably more than we think

[Jonathan Krull]

Artos Stark, on 11 March 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

I just have a hard time believing that someone who is hundreds of years old would refer to something happening two years ago as being "long ago"

Except that they KNEW they were talking to someone with a very different idea of time.  Naturally you would adapt, and speak to them in terms they understood.  Otherwise they could NEVER have a conversation that involved a discussion of time, now, tomorrow, yesterday, soon, etc.

I have grown to believe he is Coldhands.  He saved a brother of the Night's Watch.  His face is hidden by a scarf, hence Bran not recognizing him, though Bran is young so it's unlikely he would necessary recognize him otherwise. Remember, "It has been suggested by Jon Snow that the attempted assassination of Lord Commander Mormont by Othor indicates that wights retain at least some of their former memories, as Snow believes Othor remembered who Mormont was and where he slept."  Being a Stark, and a respected brother of the Night's Watch, I believe Benjen remembered his true loyalties and duties even after becoming a Wight, and has been serving those goals, saving Sam, leading Bran to the COTF, etc.  If there is one central theme I find running through the books, it is that most people can be truly horrible if given the chance.  Hence why most Wights are evil creatures of destruction.  Benjen obviously has a higher moral code, and I think this survived.  Also, keep in mind his name, Coldhands.  Perhaps the COTF have some method of arresting the conversion to Wight, thus explaining why his hands are black and cold, but the rest of him isn't.

If you read the Wiki article for Coldhands:Theories, every possibility is discredited by some supposed piece of evidence or other.  Benjen is the best possibility.

[Black Crow]

bayrodney, on 12 March 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

Always in the appendix of any ASOIAF book it's noted that he is 'presumed dead'. However, who are the 'house' family lineages written by in the back of the book? is it from the perspective of GRRM, or a fictional character's perspective within each house?

The lineages are simply a quick reference guide to the characters who are either active or referred to in that particular volume so that when you come across somebody you can't quite place you can go and look him/her up. They contain no spoiler information. As Benjen Stark hasn't been seen since he disappeared in AGoT you can hardly expect to find him identified as the Hooded Man, disguised as a match seller, dead and buried, eaten by a bear, or having joined the Others as the case may be. We'll find out one day but until the page it happens he'll be missing, presumed dead - and that will apply to the cast list at the back of whichever book it happens in.

[uncle fester]

Gentso, on 11 March 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Well, it's obvious that Benjan and his companions got attacked by the Others during their ranging. Othor got reanimated as a White Walker and Benjan's horse returned to the Wall. In the prologue of the first book the others left one ranger alive, so it's possible they also left Benjan alive. But I don't know he'd still be doing north of the wall if that were the case. Otherwise, he's either plain dead or a wight. Maybe he got turned into an other somehow, they look quite a lot like humans in the show. Maybe the great other is the one who reanimates the dead, and chooses only the elite corpses to reanimate into the walkers, haha.

He didn't. He came back as a wight, not a white walker.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

He is not dead, you just dont send Benjen Stark beyond the Wall to die or never appear again. I'm sure he is alive and probably with the Others, the Others love the Starks, everybody loves the Starks

[redriver]

Black Crow, on 12 March 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

Knowledge means little in this case. If Jon is simply a Targaryen prince he isn't going to get very far saying I'm the son of Rhaegar and the rightful heir to the Iron throne on account of that little frog eater says so. At best he'll be invited to join the queue.

On the other hand if Jon is trained to use his ancient powers as the Ice Dragon he'll create his own legitimacy.

I recently read the Ice Dragon.Like you I think it contains themes that were nascent here,but more developed in ASOIAF.

Personally,I don't think we'll see an Ice Dragon,but an Ice Wolf (Ghost).

Jon will be it's master as a leader of the Others.

And I feel we will hear from Benjen again.When I said he's continued north I was semi joking.It may well be the case.

Bran's dream foreshadows that the real terror is in the Heart of Winter and the reasons why are far to the North.

Edited by redriver, 13 March 2012 - 07:16 PM.

[Gentso]

uncle fester, on 13 March 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

He didn't. He came back as a wight, not a white walker.

That's what I meant, it was late. : D

[DoctorSwerve]

I used to think that Benjen was Coldhands, and I guess he still could be, but I doubt it.  Coldhands just seems more ancient.

I understand why many think he is dead, seeing as to how his companions became wights and his horse ran back to the Wall, so he was all by himself on foot.  

I have a feeling he is still alive, however it concerns me since if he is still alive, I can't see how he could be reintroduced into the story without it being lame, whether he was hiding with the COTF, hanging out with Bloodraven, or hanging out in Winterfell wearing a hood.  Why wouldn't he go back to the Night's Watch if he were still alive (unless he was captured which again would be lame)?

Unless Jojen turns out to be Howland Reed (which I doubt), I don't think that we'll ever see Howland Reed come into the story, therefore I am convinced that we will see Benjen return in order to have the Rhaegar/Lyanna bombshell dropped onto Jon.  I could be wrong though.

[Artos Stark]

Jonathan Krull, on 13 March 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

Except that they KNEW they were talking to someone with a very different idea of time.  Naturally you would adapt, and speak to them in terms they understood.  Otherwise they could NEVER have a conversation that involved a discussion of time, now, tomorrow, yesterday, soon, etc.

I have grown to believe he is Coldhands.  He saved a brother of the Night's Watch.  His face is hidden by a scarf, hence Bran not recognizing him, though Bran is young so it's unlikely he would necessary recognize him otherwise. Remember, "It has been suggested by Jon Snow that the attempted assassination of Lord Commander Mormont by Othor indicates that wights retain at least some of their former memories, as Snow believes Othor remembered who Mormont was and where he slept."  Being a Stark, and a respected brother of the Night's Watch, I believe Benjen remembered his true loyalties and duties even after becoming a Wight, and has been serving those goals, saving Sam, leading Bran to the COTF, etc.  If there is one central theme I find running through the books, it is that most people can be truly horrible if given the chance.  Hence why most Wights are evil creatures of destruction.  Benjen obviously has a higher moral code, and I think this survived.  Also, keep in mind his name, Coldhands.  Perhaps the COTF have some method of arresting the conversion to Wight, thus explaining why his hands are black and cold, but the rest of him isn't.

If you read the Wiki article for Coldhands:Theories, every possibility is discredited by some supposed piece of evidence or other.  Benjen is the best possibility.

It is possible that they were talking about something that happened recently but not very likely IMO.  Not even someone the age of Bran or the Reeds would refer to something that happened so recently as "long ago".  Do you think they would refer to their father being killled as "long ago"?  They were about the sae time frame.  No matter who you are talking to, it simply isn't long ago if its happened so recently.

I also find it hard to believe that Benjin would gather such a huge flock of birds to follow him in such a short amount of time, I get the impression that those were gathered over time.  I also don't know that he would develop the ability to speak to and control these animals in such a short amount of time.

You make a good point that some of the person's memories might stay behind.  But Coldhands seems to be the exception, in which he tends to have nearly all of his former memories, not just a portion.  Also he seems to be dead long enough to grow a disconnection from the Nights Watch, one in which it is not a big deal for him to kill brothers of the Nights Watch.  Benjen would still have feelings and loyalties to them and I doubt he would go as far as killing his brothers so soon.

[jarl the climber]

Artos Stark, on 13 March 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

It is possible that they were talking about something that happened recently but not very likely IMO.  Not even someone the age of Bran or the Reeds would refer to something that happened so recently as "long ago".  Do you think they would refer to their father being killled as "long ago"?  They were about the sae time frame.  No matter who you are talking to, it simply isn't long ago if its happened so recently.

I also find it hard to believe that Benjin would gather such a huge flock of birds to follow him in such a short amount of time, I get the impression that those were gathered over time.  I also don't know that he would develop the ability to speak to and control these animals in such a short amount of time.

You make a good point that some of the person's memories might stay behind.  But Coldhands seems to be the exception, in which he tends to have nearly all of his former memories, not just a portion.  Also he seems to be dead long enough to grow a disconnection from the Nights Watch, one in which it is not a big deal for him to kill brothers of the Nights Watch.  Benjen would still have feelings and loyalties to them and I doubt he would go as far as killing his brothers so soon.

These men may have been some of the deserters from Crasters Keep, one of them was missing a hand, Ollo Lophand was one of the men who killed Craster and Mormont, he is obviously missing a hand.

[Artos Stark]

jarl the climber, on 13 March 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

These men may have been some of the deserters from Crasters Keep, one of them was missing a hand, Ollo Lophand was one of the men who killed Craster and Mormont, he is obviously missing a hand.

But they also could have been some of the men who were lost and wandering from the fist or Crasters, it's quite possible that one of them lost a hand sometime along the way as well as it is said in the books, fingers, toes and even hands and feet fall off in the winter if not treated.

[YouLie]

the savage, on 11 March 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

Given that we still don't have a full map of the Lands of Always Winter, it is possible that above the FrostFangs there are entire CITIES up there (populated by one race or another) and Benjen is up there doing something very important.  He is not a deserter if he is still keeping to his vows and protecting the realms of Men.  Given that Benjen's been gone three years, I doubt that he is entirely "roughing it," as if that was the case he would probably be dead yes.  So he has help, in some form or another.

I think he Christopher Columbus' himself into Qarth... e.g. if you head northwest far enough, you end up travelling southwest.  I got thinking about this when I heard the description of the warlock's...even the whites of their eyes are blue...out of power for 1,000 years.  Couldn't find any other link to the Others, but got me wondering what lies to the west.