200 replies to this topic

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Queen Margaery Tyrell stands accused of Adultery/High Treason. Every case against her has been thrown out, excluding The Blue Bard's testimony (which we know is bullshit) and Maester Pycelle's testimony about Moon Tea.
Is it possible probable that Moon Tea has tiny traces of poison in it which Margaery drank to build up an immunity for Joff's wedding? And she  possibly probably continues to drink it because it would be dangerous to stop "cold turkey",

[Gingerly Grumkin]

But of course this goes against my Tyrion was the target theory, (poisoned pigeon pie)

[jarl the climber]

Actually the some of the other people accused of being her lovers are being held by Qyburn at the Red Keep. The Redwyne twins have been cleared and released and Hamish the Harper? died but I think there is still Tallad the Tall, Jalabhar Xho and 1 or 2 others and they are in Qyburns custody so I guess they could still end up testifying against Marge.

I'm not even sure if Pycelle was telling the truth about the moontea, I thought he might have just said that because he was trying to save his own skin. Thats an interesting theory about building up a resistance, we know Mel drank some strangler and didnt't die. Of course magic might have been involved and certianly Mel saw the attempt in her fire but her resistance to it might have a more mundane explanation. I doubt the Tyrells would involve Pycelle in their schemes, he is known for his loyalty to the Lannisters. Thats why I don't think she was getting moontea from him.

[Independent George]

jarl the climber, on 12 March 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Actually the some of the other people accused of being her lovers are being held by Qyburn at the Red Keep. The Redwyne twins have been cleared and released and Hamish the Harper? died but I think there is still Tallad the Tall, Jalabhar Xho and 1 or 2 others and they are in Qyburns custody so I guess they could still end up testifying against Marge.

I thought they were in the High Septon's custody, and not Qyburn's. As I recall, the only one to admit to the charges was the Blue Bard, who was apparently driven mad by the torture.

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I'm not even sure if Pycelle was telling the truth about the moontea, I thought he might have just said that because he was trying to save his own skin.

I have my doubts, too; Margaery and Olenna seem way too smart to trust Pycelle with something that sensitive. If she needed the moon tea (which is doubtful, given what the Kettleblacks reported to Cersei; she did not appear even have the opportunity to have any affairs in the months she was in King's Landing), she would have brought it herself from Highgarden. I just can't believe anyone clever enough to poison someone in front of a thousand people and have the blame fall on someone else would be that dumb.

[Bear Grylls of Skagos]

I am sure that she is not a maiden. Game of Thrones season 2 trailers  clearly show her having sex with Renly and also Mel with Stannis.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

OR.............Renly and Loras was the red herring...

uh huh...........

Loras and Margaery are secretly lovers!  ah HAH!

(or maybe they had reaaaaally kinky 3somes with Renly....oooooooo)

Edited by Christina Ceriddwynn, 12 March 2012 - 11:14 AM.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Renly was gay and there is was no bed sheet shown the night after the wedding
Joff never slept with Margaery either
It kinda seemed like Pycelle was becoming a Tyrell pawn at the end

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

renly was BI.....uh huh....him and Loras both.....they liked....variety

no bedsheet cuz she's not a virgin...

kinky 3somes I tell ya

[jblair]

I've always felt Margaery enjoys her playtime, and that some of the charges are true. Although I doubt they will hold up - Thorns is smarter than Cersei.

[Queen Cersei I]

Yes, Margary is almost surely innocent of the things the wicked Cersei has accused her of: sexual infidelity to the king, sleeping with numerous men, (and, as Cersei personally suspects, sleeping with her brother and sleeping with other women.)

Margary is innocent of all of this as surely as she is a “good woman”, a foil for the wicked Cersei. Just as surely as Cersei is portrayed as whiny, stupid, unsubtle and morally wrong for complaining (out loud and in her head) that she has been mistreated due to her femininity—sold off by her father to a creepy man, been forced repeatedly to have sex, treated as a brood mare, denied the right to concrete power etc.—Margary is silent on all of these issues. The good Margary not only does not complain but has found a way to be free of bitterness, complaint, and thrive as a woman within a society that has forced upon her the same limitations as Cersei. Like all of the other conventionally feminine “good” women—Sansa, the Queen of Thornes, etc.—Margary learns how to thrive in a traditionally patriarchal society without challenging—or even complaining against—the patriarchal structure of the society itself.

Margary is sold off to three men in succession by her father to advance her family’s status with little to no input in her fate, and she does not complain. She is seen as a brood mare and pawn in her society and does not complain. If her husband(s) would have lived, she would have had to spread her legs for them and makes babies whenever they wanted them, but we never see her complain or appear to resent this. She does not get to inherit property or concrete power,  but we never hear her complain. We never hear the good Margary (or any other good woman) complain about any of these things.

The two forms of good women in these books—the tomboys who reject traditional femininity and fight with weapons (Brienne, Asha, Arya), or the conventional women, who live the life of conventional highborn ladies (Sansa, Margary, the Queen of Thorns, Cat) do not challenge the patriarchy, nor ever overtly resent it. The tomboy warrior women are actually fairly conventional in obeying their society’s patriarchal structures, the small exceptions being Asha’s decision to try to take on power in AFFC, when she can see that all of the men up for the role of king are either incompetent, dead, missing, or crazy. (This is in stark opposition to the evil Cersei, who wants power for itself, and has the unthinkable nerve to go up against competent men to compete for it.) This, and Asha’s offhanded comment that teats on a king are not a bad thing and Arya’s complaint in AGOT about not being able to be high septon because she was a girl, are the only exceptions—otherwise, you don’t see any good women in these books frequently launching systemized critiques of how the patriarchy has affectively ruined their lives, as Cersei does. Frequently. And is portrayed as weak, stupid, and deluded for.

Like The Queen of Thorns or Sansa (the latter who is frequently compared and contrasted with the evil Cersei, the point being that Sansa had it worse but does not stupidly whine against the patriarchy or unthinkably betray her husband as Cersei does), Margary never rebels against her society, or even overtly resents it. Instead, she smiles, and makes the best of a bad situation, as, the book implies, any truly good and smart women would do. She uses her charm, intelligence, and beauty to help make things go her way. She is happy to take her feminine place, except when the men in power (Mace Tyrell) make stupid, inept decisions. When that is the case, she uses her wiles to manipulate behind the scenes and improve things.

Margary knows how to handle herself, and work within her society to give herself the best possible deal. If Cersei had been killed and Margary had been married to Robert, for instance, Marge may have not loved King Bob anymore than Cersei did, but, with her considerable cunning and beauty, she could have convinced king bob into loving her, and thus found a way to wield great influence over him. Unlike stupidly resenting him and (Unthinkably!) having another man father her children, Margary would have been kind to king Bob, overlooked his frequent infidelities, bore him children without complaint, and, on the surface, obeyed him. She would have probably hated sex with him, but like a truly good and intelligent woman, would have submitted to his will, pretended to enjoy it, and tried to find pleasure in it, like Dany the good and natural woman did with Drogo. (It is heavily implied that this is what the stupid Cersei should have done, but was prevented from doing so by her pride, bitchines, unnatural rebellion, and spite. Robert holding her down and forcing her was something that did not happen to truly smart women like Dany because these women knew how to compromise submit and make things better for themselves. It is implied that unlike Cersei, Margary would have never gotten herself raped forced because she would have not been so stubborn or perverse as Cersei, and would have put out for her husband like a good girl.)

In the end, is Margary innocent? I would say, almost surely, yes. She is there to show how a “good, smart” woman handles a patriarchal society. (Just as Cersei is shown how a bad, stupid woman tries to handle a patriarchal society. Or how a woman should not handle a patriarchal society.) Fools like Cersei rage against it, unnaturally rebelling and destroying herself, the realm, and everything she loves in the process. Such idiotic attempts (the books imply) are doomed to epic failure. Smart girls like Margary, Sansa, Olenna et. Al. work from inside it, submitting to the smart males and never going for power for itself, but manipulating within the society to protect themselves and those they love.

Similarly, the good women like Margary and Sasna know their smartest option is to obey their societies rules—staying faithful to their husband no matter what; not having sex with multiple guys, and not dreaming of “experimental” sex with other women or other such atrocities. They stay utterly faithful to their husbands even if that husband literally has no chance of satisfying them sexually. (Seven year old Tommen, anyone?) They would never dream of (stupidly, evilly) breaking their societies sexual norms, as Cersei does. That whole subplot is meant merely to show Cersei projecting her own sexual “perversions” onto the innocent Margary.

Which makes yet another point—Cersei, in addition to being evil, is a big, fat hypocrite for wanting to punish Margary for (she believes) taking the same liberties she herself has taken. Apparently, women who rage against the patriarchal nature of their societies are also natural haters of other women, like Cersei. (A point hammered in in an earlier scene between Cersei and Sansa, when Cersei complains about how she has been ill used, then blathers about how she can’t stand other women because they are “weak.”)

Honestly, I don’t know which is more depressing—the fact that GRRM has the only honest feminist critique of the patriarchal society of Westeros come out of the most demonized, hated woman in these books; or that self-proclaimed feminists on these boards mock Cersei’s ideas—that she cannot inherit, that she was mistreated by Robert, that she is not given equal rights—as totally ridiculous--proof of Cersei’s spoilt, stupid, irrational nature. Honestly, I think the latter pretty much shows how successfully—and subtly—these books manage to communicate their message.

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 12 March 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[Apple Martini]

The Valonquar., on 12 March 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

I am sure that she is not a maiden. Game of Thrones season 2 trailers  clearly show her having sex with Renly and also Mel with Stannis.

Trailers can lie. I'm not saying that they definitely won't have sex, but trailers can use creative editing to make you see and hear things that don't actually end up happening.

[Independent George]

The Valonquar., on 12 March 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

I am sure that she is not a maiden. Game of Thrones season 2 trailers  clearly show her having sex with Renly and also Mel with Stannis.

Even if it's true, it's irrelevant to the charges against her in King's Landing. As we learn in Cersei's POV, she has been careful to never be alone with a man during her entire time she's in King's Landing. The reason the charges are sticking is because Cersei managed to turn one of her own handmaids against her (I'm still unsure as to how she managed that).

[Fire Eater]

The Valonquar., on 12 March 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

I am sure that she is not a maiden. Game of Thrones season 2 trailers  clearly show her having sex with Renly and also Mel with Stannis.

Drogo kills Jhaqo in the TV series which doesn't occur in the books. Don't trust everything you see in the TV series.

I think Margaery may be innocent, as Cersei notes she likes to ride and highborn girls have been known to lose their maidenheads to horse riding.

[Seekrit Targaryen]

Fire Eater, on 12 March 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

Drogo kills Jhaqo in the TV series which doesn't occur in the books. Don't trust everything you see in the TV series.

I think Margaery may be innocent, as Cersei notes she likes to ride and highborn girls have been known to lose their maidenheads to horse riding.

Kinky.

[Turkey Jack]

jarl the climber, on 12 March 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Thats an interesting theory about building up a resistance, we know Mel drank some strangler and didnt't die. Of course magic might have been involved and certianly Mel saw the attempt in her fire but her resistance to it might have a more mundane explanation.

Like Maester Pylos spotting what Cressen was up to, tipped Mel off then provided an antidote

Something fishy is going on with Margaery if she is not sleeping around one of her inner circle is up to something

[Woman of War]

I agree with your whole post # 10, Queen Cersei, only not with that last sentence. "Message" implies intention and I believe that even subconscious intention here from Martin's side is not given. But we we had that debate.

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Honestly, I think the latter pretty much shows how successfully—and subtly—these books manage to communicate their message

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

SO.....after watching the Renly featurette....there is a scene where he is having foreplay with Loras and Margaery struts in nude.......

uh huh.....

[LifeRuiner]

Christina Ceriddwynn, on 12 March 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

SO.....after watching the Renly featurette....there is a scene where he is having foreplay with Loras and Margaery struts in nude.......

uh huh.....

It's just the editing.

[Apple Martini]

I just want to point out that even if Margaery did lose her virginity to Renly — which I don't believe happened, but I'm nipping this in the bud in case the show changes things — that still does not make her an adulteress and/or guilty of what she's accused of in the capital. Her virginity when she married Joffrey and Tommen was important insofar as it proved that she wasn't pregnant with Renly's heir. But there's nothing wrong with a widow becoming a queen (e.g. Catherine Parr). What is an issue is a woman who lost her virginity outside of marriage, but if Margaery lost it to Renly after they got married, that's a non-issue. I think that the Tyrells insisted on her virginity as much as they did to speed up the marriage to Joffrey (i.e. if she'd been sexually active they'd've had to wait to make sure she wasn't pregnant), but if she was still a virgin — and again, I think she was — the marriage could go ahead pronto.

Edited by Apple Martini, 13 March 2012 - 09:46 PM.

[thetitansbastard]

The Tyrells are after power.  I think Loras and Margaery are lovers, and Loras only was sexually involved with Renly to help put his family in a favorable position.