104 replies to this topic

[Prince Theon]

At first, I thought she was a dangerous player.

When Jaime fucked her on the Great Sept, beside Joffrey's body, while she was on her period I thought, MAN are those characters awesome or what?

When she got her own POV i thought it was awesome to realize by myself, not by Baelish's explanations, WHY she was suck a lousy player, and a stupid woman.

I decided it was impossible not to love her when i read this:

Quote

"She imagined how sweet it would be to slam an elbow into Septa Scolera's face and see her careening down the spiral steps. If the gods were good, the wrinkled old cunt might crash into Septa Unella, and take her down with her."

So, yeah, indeed she is my favorite character. She, and Theon Greyjoy. Two awesome sons of bitches.

[Queen Cersei I]

Keep Shelly in Athens, on 14 March 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

ughhhhh I'm not a "Cersei lover" like Justin Bieber fans are "Bieber lovers." Jon Snow is actually my favorite character; has always been, and always will be. I despised Cersei throughout 99% of the books.

I jump to Cersei's defense on rare occasions 1. when I see the author trying to give her something every good comic book villain has: a point of view, 2. when her talents for seeing patriarchy go unappreciated, and 3. as a fun mental exercise so I don't fall into the trap of reducing the characters to soap opera stereotypes. And that's it. All the other times, she's a psycho hosebeast of a woman, right out of Wayne and Garth's worst heavy metal nightmares.

"Cersei lovers" is mostly a claim made by the uncreative and defensive when someone a. questions Cersei's characterizations or the author's intent in portraying her as he does (extensive almost obsessive focus on her sexuality; portrayal of her legitimate complaints against the patriarchy as petulant bitchery; implications that the only women who truly wants power for itself must want a penis; etc.), b. objects to sexually themed insults (slut, whore, the c word, etc.) or c. Objects to newly popularized (and ridiculous) arguments that Cersei somehow abused her brother Jaime.

Objecting to cheers for sexually based, female specific punishments to fall upon Cersei's head does not equal defending a character or a single thing she's done. It merely means objecting to the idea that a woman, no matter how evil, should be punished with sexual assault or sexually themed torture.

The idea that objecting to this, pointing out the double standards that people generally greet the sexual behavior of Cersei vs. that of, say, LF for instance, is not loving, or even standing up for a charcter. It is pointing out the problematic attitudes of the readers themselves.

When called on their glee and wishes for Cersei to experience sexually themed punishments, the posters in question might respond with well reasoned arguments; unfortunately, in many cases they simply respond by accusing those questioning sexually themed punishment as "just" and "awesome" of being Cersei lovers who will defend Cersei's basest actions. In my case, that has never happened, nor will it ever.

The idea that in order to be moral and sensible and not a rabid, senseless Cersei lover, one must profess how much one hates the bitch from the highest rooftop is ridiculous. It also gives much leeway for the casual misogyny that is all too often associated with Cersei as a character. (Though, due to the frequency of posters wishing sexual assault on Cersei, expressing the desire to see Cersei raped has been officially banned on these forums, people still frequently find ways to wish for this without saying so in so many words. For instance, instead of saying "I want to see Cersei sexually assaulted," people will wish for Cersei to be "subjected to a sex scene with Ramsay Bolton," or express their earnest desire to see Cersei thrown to the Brave Companions and used  by them. And, contrary to the endless protestations of posters that there is nothing sexist about this, they wish the same thing on the men, really, here's the truth of it-- I have yet to see any sexual abuse as punishment wishes voiced for any MALE villain, no matter how vile. The only exception is several cases where, seeking to prove that they were not at all sexist for wanting to see Cersei sexually humiliated, posters have insisted that they cheered for Theon's gelding or want to see Ramsay Bolton castrated. These wishes are things I've heard a total of three times, in opposition to the countless wishes for Cersei to be sexually assaulted I've heard voiced on these boards.)

Most annoyingly of all, the idea that anyone who objects to anything about Cersei or the opinion of certain posters on her is labeled a Cersei lover, thus silly, inferior, irrational, etc., and thus those who make poor arguments are allowed to use cheap insults to defend their opinions rather than actual, well articulated arguments. This impedes real intelligent debate.

Objecting to people cheering for sexually based violence to be meted out to Cersei is not an indication that one loves Cersei and delighted in her deeds-- it merely means that one is uncomfortable with sexualized punishments. Arguing that Cersei's characterization is problematic and disturbing and occasionally sexist is not defending Cersei's deeds or being irrational-- it is simply voicing discomfort regarding some of the many sexist tropes the author has utilized-- and intensified to astounding degrees-- while writing this character. Arguing that Cersei is inconsistant and her plotline in AFFC and ADWD largely contrived and ridiculous is not saying Cersei is benevolent or some sort of early feminist-- it is merely noting that the shallow characterization, the clunky prophecy plot device, and the generally contrived nature of her storyline seems to signal a clear drop in quality that bears more of a resemblence to conventional formulaic fantasy than the rest of these well written books.

[Wenda the White Fawn]

Ever since her name appeared in print. She'll always be my favorite, always and forever.

[Fragile Bird]

Let's try again and see if you out there can explain when Cersei became your favourite character.  No throwing cold water at anyone, ok guys?

[Caro99]

she isn't my favorite character, but i love to read her POV chapters. i find them fascinating every time i do a re-read about them. i also like the HBO portrayal of her, though they've changed her quite a bit, but both are quite good though in their own way.

Edited by Caro99, 11 April 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[The Greenseer]

ManyFacedOne, on 13 March 2012 - 03:35 AM, said:

I utterly loathe her, but I do love to read her chapters. Very entertaining to say the least.

My sentiments exactly. I don't see her drive to keep power at any cost as admirable, I find it disturbing.   She is a stone cold psychopath. I understand that her father was the same way but, thats no excuse. She has  a wicked and cruel nature as evidenced even in her childhood interactions with Tryion.  She mothered that appalling little shit Joeffry and played a large role in shaping his world view.
  Despite all of that [spoilers] I did feel pity for her in ADWD, as that was unjust. Plus it was not even a punishment for her true crimes.

Edited by The Greenseer, 11 April 2012 - 04:31 PM.

[AngrySoviet]

Queen Cersei I, please answer me this.  Are men like Gregor, Ramsay, Rorge, and even Theon good characters?  Are you supposed to see them in a positive light?  Let's look at how sexuality affects all these men.

Gregor-  Not only is he a rampaging monstrous psychopath, but it is clear that he has no problem with rape.  He uses his strength to rape Elia of Dorne, that one innkeeper's daughter (Lets not forget he pays money for raping her, further objectifying her), and doubtless countless other women.

Ramsay- has a sick game going on where he rapes women and flays them alive.  Also treats his wife, Jeyne Poole, in horrible methods, humiliating her, making Theon pleasure her, and treating her as a sexual object.

Rorge- Again, stoops to rape multiple times.  Tries to rape Brienne, rapes the one girl in Saltpans after cutting off her breasts and nose, and uses sexual threats multiple times.

Theon- Not as bad as all of the above.  However, he still objectifies women.  He treats the captain's daughter like shit on his way to the Iron islands.  He basically just fucks her, and when he's done with her he basically tosses her aside like a soiled piece of tissue paper.  He also objectifies Asha by claiming it will be an honor to be fucked by a lord like him, and he is then shocked and indignant that a woman has a superior position of power over him.

Victarion-  Believes that women should be seen and not heard.  Only cares for sex when it comes to women, as seen in his relationship with the dusky woman, who he sees as a "gift" by Euron.  Are we encouraged to see Victarion in a positive light?  Or do we see him as a merciless barbarian?


Are these characters portrayed in a positive light?  Sex plays an important part in who they are, and they all objectify women and have no problem with rape.  Are we supposed to feel sympathetic and love them?  Is GRRM sexist by showing that men are such evil, violent beings that can't control themselves when they are aroused?



I also don't understand why people who have illusions that mysoginy exists in these books always ignore Brienne.  Let's not forget that Martin was portraying medieval society; hence, why Cersei wants a cock, because being a male in the middle ages always meant you had more power than women.  That's a historical FACT.  Brienne also revolts against this idea.  Everyone basically expects her to be a good wife, find herself a husband, and stay at home.  Instead, she breaks her society's rules by becoming a knight, which is tradtionally a male role.  Hell she is one of the only decent human beings in this series, is one of the most chivalrous, and definitely has honor.  Randyll Tarly expects her to shut up and be a good woman by finding a husband and staying at home; again, is Tarly being portrayed here as a good human being, or as an ignorant sexist? (not to mention as a cruel asshole of a man, if his treatment of Samwell is anything to go on.)

[AngrySoviet]

But to get back on topic, I would not say that I have ever seen Cersei in a positive light.  She is a very merciless person.  I did feel kind of bad for her at the end, and it is touching to see that she finally starts caring about the important things in life, i.e. family and love, instead of focusing on amassing power for the sake of power.  I was hoping that she will stay this way and won't relapse in the next book.

[Raksha the Demon]

I find Cersei to be an interesting, multi-faceted character, more entertaining to read about than Gregor or Ramsey or some of the other far-less-than-noble types; but I think she is evil.  Even leaving aside the arrogance that seems to be a Tywin-based trait, Cersei has always displayed a troubling lack of empathy and a vicious streak that has only deepened, a willingness to use and not only discard but kill those who aren't Lannisters.  And being badly treated by Robert does not excuse sending Falyse Stokeworth to be vivisected by Qyburn (or the hapless maidservant, on the word of Taena who Cersei had known for about five minutes, relatively speaking), not to mention her treatment of Robert's bastards, and torturing her baby brother, etc.  

Does Cersei deserve the Walk of Shame?  No, she deserves a minute with the block and Ser Ilyn Payne and an axe, but not public naked-walking-shaming.  I noticed her Kettleblack lover/stooge wasn't trotted out for a nekkid slut-walk...I don't think GRRM has a personal vendetta against Cersei, and I think he wrote the scene well and showed how unfair it was.  I loved it when Clueless Kevan thinks that poor Cersei's lost her fire after the Walk of Shame, with Cersei dressing modestly and acting docile.  Please.  She is so going to erupt like a wildfire volcano when the right time comes...

[Fragile Bird]

@Raksha the Demon

I so agree with you!

[nara]

Cersei has been one of my favorite characters since the tower incident with Jaime and Bran.  Don't get me wrong, we wouldn't be BFFs in real life, but I find her brazen behavior to be a fun read.  I cannot wait until the next Cersei appearance, either in the book or the tv series.  I love her quotes:  "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die,"  'Love is a poison.  a sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same."  I love her stupidity and the way she's running to her own destruction,  if she would team up with Jaime and Tyrion, they could be unstoppable.  Instead she fights the very people who care for her -- and yes, I do think Tyrion cares for her and that's why her treatment of him hurts him so much.  Also, she doesn't see that she'd be much happier giving up her ambitions and living with Jaime and their kids.  I love the fact that she is sexually unfaithful to Jaime, but loyal and proud of him in other ways.  She's a really mean person, so incredibly flawed that it's almost unbelievable.  However, I do like the fact that she genuinely mourns Joffrey and the way she puts her pride aside and does the walk.  I guess the thing I like most about her is her strengths and weaknesses are all very human--there's nothing magical about her--so her story is very human.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

I don't know that Cersei is my favorite character, exactly. But she is a good one.

I never felt that she was ret-conned, or cartoonized, in AFFC, as others seem to think. To me, she came across as a bit unhinged way before, and then came; purple wedding, Tywin's death, alcohol, stressful work, yadda yadda. But, GRRM did seem to crank it up to eleven, so to speak, and that was probably jarring to those who figured she had better control of things. Could have been more subtly handled, I suppose.

As for the sexism and misogyny that has been discussed here (and in quite possibly every thread about Cersei I've read) I just think that getting into that sort of discussion concerning authoritorial intent and intended meaning is just a goddamn quagmire, and I'll usually avoid it. Still, AngrySoviet poses some interesting questions a few posts above this one. (I realize that they've probably been answered before, many times, but still...)

Ramsay is obviously a way, way, way worse person than Cersei. Cersei comes across as somewhat incompetent, extremely paranoid, and incredibly rash. She also makes some very cruel decisions, most notably when it comes to this whole Qyburn-relationship. Ramsay however... I mean he hunts women down, rapes, kills, and flays them and not necessarily in that order and in contrast with Cersei's moral low points, Ramsay relishes what he's doing. He laughs about it. He gets a kick out of hearing and seeing the terror his very brutal, and heavily sexualized, violence instills in his victims.

Again, in contrast with Ramsay, Cersei uses consensual sex in order to gain the loyalty of a couple of henchmen. Now this is a really stupid idea in my mind, but arguing that this makes her an evil whore, or whatever, is just really silly and I have a hard time believing that that is the conclusion we should draw. As for the walk of shame, I really sympathized with her during that one. Did I fail in my interpretation of the text? Did GRRM fail to show me what a bad slut she is and how happy I should be she got her just desserts?

[StarkWhite]

She's a damn lunatic. No death I can think of is befitting enough for her.

[Fragile Bird]

StarkWhite, on 25 June 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

She's a damn lunatic. No death I can think of is befitting enough for her.

But doesn't that just make her a character you love to hate?  I mean, she is a great character in the sense that she just rock and rolls other characters and you the reader!

ETA:  I usually welcome 1st posters, but I think I can welcome a 2nd poster too!  Welcome to Westeros, Stark White (lol, how the hell was this name still available?).  I hope you enjoy yourself and have a good time here in Westeros!  

Edited by Fragile Bird, 25 June 2012 - 07:08 PM.

[Batman]

When she died. What? That didnt happen yet? Still waiting then

[Lady Arwen]

I can't get enough of Cersei's POV, as disturbing as it can be at times. She is damn witty and snarky. I find her way of thinking to be fascinating. More Cersei, please!

[lakin1013]

Never have I loved Cersei, and she seems to be quite dangerous to love; I do not think she can love.  She is an opportunistic mother, a plotting mother, a stage manager of a mother and her children must reflect her in the best possible light - as in, be king, no matter how psychopathic the kid might be.   In fact, the only thing I saw her do that was 'motherly' was prepare to poison Tommen, if Stannis had won (and frankly, I cannot remember if that was part of the book or the tv show).  She doesn't want Myrcella to leave, she wants Myrcella to stay as a bargaining chip.  While Jaime does love her, she uses him at will to improve her status or respond to her needs.  She believes she is never enough for her father Tywin, who will always favor Jaime.  Keeping Qyburn at work in the dungeons and knowing what he was doing is horrible beyond words, Vindictive, cruel Cersei is not a character I would love.

Edited by lakin1013, 26 June 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[Fragile Bird]

lakin1013, on 26 June 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

Never have I loved Cersei, and she seems to be quite dangerous to love; I do not think she can love.  She is an opportunistic mother, a plotting mother, a stage manager of a mother and her children must reflect her in the best possible light - as in, be king, no matter how psychopathic the kid might be.   In fact, the only thing I saw her do that was 'motherly' was prepare to poison Tommen, if Stannis had won (and frankly, I cannot remember if that was part of the book or the tv show).  

It was actually part of the tv show - in the book,Tommen is moved out of King's Landing.  He's being brought to Rosby's keep, and Tyrion has his men from the city guard  intercept the party and take over the guarding of Tommen because he believes Rosby is an inadequate protector.  But since Tommen is under his control, Cersei becomes even more livid in her hatred of Tyrion.

Edited by Fragile Bird, 26 June 2012 - 12:39 PM.

[Ser Flowers]

When she was mercilessly beheaded outside the Red Keep.....wait that hasn't happened yet? Damn.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Cersei may be dumber than Hodor.  Atleast Hodor knows his limits.(they begin and end with "hodor")  She literally is leading Westeros to ruin.  I find her interesting in the sense of reading about completely ineffectual, awful leaders.  She....

1) is cruel- sends girls to be raped/killed by Qyburn.

2)is dense/stupid - reinstates faith militant ignorant of what that means for the crown past and present.

3) is delusional - I'll be a better ruler than tywin, better ruler than any king, you'll all see!!!  It's only cause I'm a woman!! :' (

4)surrounds herself with sycophants, yes men, and imbeciles

5) has no judgement and is ruled by her own capricious impulsivity - takes Joffrey off the battle lines, defers all the debts to the Iron bank causing economic chaos.

6)is neurotic and has inflated self worth - the tyrells are out to get me!!!!


I think that's enough.  I can't imagine anyone being "Team Cersei" ...especially in her confrontations with Ned, that's like rooting for the emperor during star wars or something.