104 replies to this topic

[Buckwheat]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 13 March 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

I do not like her character, but I love reading her chapters. Cersei is truly A character that I love to hate.

Agree. Her last chapter in ADWD was one of the best written parts of the story, it really made me feel with her and pity her so much.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Buckwheat, on 13 March 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

Agree. Her last chapter in ADWD was one of the best written parts of the story, it really made me feel with her and pity her so much.

I didn't pity her, I loved it. I pity the innocent people that she sent to Qyburn and all of the others who's lives she just callously dismissed as being irrelevant. It's just the tip of the iceberg for her.

[Buckwheat]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 13 March 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

I didn't pity her, I loved it. I pity the innocent people that she sent to Qyburn and all of the others who's lives she just callously dismissed as being irrelevant. It's just the tip of the iceberg for her.

I pity them, too. I pity lots of people, I guess.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Since AFFC...well I guess you could say I loved to hate before her POV chapters but I think I just hated her. Since Cersei's POV I fell in love with her! Every time I turned the page and it was Cesei's chapter I was so excited! Before I just wanted her to die for being an evil idiot and with her POV I love it! Cersei may not be my fav but she has climbed a list that she was never even on. (Cersei was a idiot in the first three books too, imho)

[Fire Eater]

Lady Octarina, on 12 March 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

I'm looking forward to reading her demise, but that's all; most of the time she appears now I smirk and wonder what new way to bring chaos to Westeros she has found now.

Me too, I hope to see how she dies as well, my money is on being eaten by one of Dany's dragons (dragons always eat their meat cooked), or being killed by Jaime.

QueenSansaStark, on 12 March 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

well I liked her in clash of kings. Cersei moved me when she had her breakdown, her emotions are raw and powerful. She is a tragical character who deserves an ending that epically befits her. I cannot wait when Lena Headey plays her emotional breakdown.

Lena Headey portrays Cersei poorly on "Game of Thrones" IMHO. She is too calm and emotionless in her portrayal, and I would call her acting to be somewhat wooden.

Cersei may be the strongest woman in the series, but I like that she is driving her house into the ground without realizing it.

[Xerox in 4 Parts]

"And what of my wrath, Lord Stark."

[TheBull]

No, she's not a good person but that doesn't stop her from being one of the most fascinating characters in the series. She's ruthless, the center of her own universe, and determined to live on her own terms. In many ways she's her own worst enermy, her own undoing, but she's fighting like hell to rise beyond the limit the world has set for her and it makes for some great reading.

She becames one of my favorites in AFFC when I was able to get inside her head. All her life she has been fighting for power and when she finally gets it, she's a complete and utter paranoid mess. She's so used to fighting everyone at every turn that she can't conceive the idea that not everyone is against her. I cannot wait to see what GRRM has in store for her. One thing's for sure, she will not go gently into that good night

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Keep Shelly in Athens, on 13 March 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

All I know is that if I wanted to be rule the 7 Kingdoms without a husband, I'd have to be the biggest bitch on the planet.

Being a bitch and being a smart cunning bitch are two different things, and Cersei is the former not the latter.

[DornishKnight]

I also love to hate the character, ever since AFFC.  She was the best POV in that book followed by Asha and Jaime.

Before that book I just plain hated her as I hated Joffrey.  Seeing how utterly detached from reality she is was a treat.

[Laohu]

Fire Eater, on 13 March 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

Lena Headey portrays Cersei poorly on "Game of Thrones" IMHO. She is too calm and emotionless in her portrayal, and I would call her acting to be somewhat wooden.

I was watching the GoT Blu-Ray audio commentaries this past weekend, and during episode 2, I found myself listening to Lena discuss her take on Cersei, the character. It was painfully obvious that she had not read any of the books after GoT (or simply the season's script). Much of this character is fleshed out in later books, and this is most apparent when her PoV's kick off. Lena did not seem to know any of this information, which should not have been expected of her for just one season.

Even though she may have not been true to the Cersei in the books, it was not really Lena's fault for taking a different angle on the character. I am sure the producers allowed her a certain level of freedom to take the character in what she felt was a natural direction, given the circumstances Cersei finds herself in. Either way, I absolutely hate Cersei, for reasons I do not care to list since that list is exceedingly long.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I think she's one of the most brilliantly thought out characters ever devised. At turns I feel absolute disgust but also sometimes, rarely, I feel pity for her. I can't say that I've ever *liked* her but during her whole ordeal with the Faith I did root for her. I don't know why but I just found the sanctimonious crap that the Faith was trying to put on her was wrong. I believe Cersei must answer for her crimes but I don't think the Faith are the ones who get that right.

I've stated this before in other threads but I truly found Cersei's POVs in AFfC to be some of my favorite in the entire series. Her chapters made for a diabolically delicious read. At points I found myself laughing out loud at how bat-shit crazy she was. It was almost like some weird Dadaist kabuki theater performance. Especially the scenes when sellswords would present random dwarf heads and she'd be sitting there bored...it was then that I knew this bitch was genius!

Cersei is not a cartoon villain. The author has allowed us to get glimpses into Cersei's warped psyche. We get to see why she thinks she's justified in her actions. Of course her reasoning for being a murderous harpy is laughable, but we get to see her mental rationalization and I find it fascinating. We always wonder "What makes an evil person so bad?" Well most evil people think that they have justification to do their wicked deeds. Cersei's chapters allow us to see that.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I actually prefer the way that Lena plays Cersei. I like that she's made her more icy and calculated. I think "vampy vixen" comes off a little too campy on screen. Lena's cold portrayal of Cersel is excellent. Cersei doesn't truly become unraveled until after Joffrey's death anyway.

[Ihab]

Never

[Keep Shelly in Athens]

From a July 2005 book signing:

Quote

With regard to characterization and point of view, GRRM said that for any character who is a POV character he has to find something that he and readers can sympathize with even if the character in question does reprehensible things. He said there is always something he can find, or if not then it just won't be a POV character...GRRM mentioned that Cersei will be a major POV character in A Feast for Crows. I was outraged by this and commented ""You just won't ever leave us any character we can purely hate, will you?". GRRM smiled at that, and that's when he gave the counter-example of Gregor Clegane

I don't think she's supposed to be fully hated, like Gregor. The people that "love to hate her" are either missing the sympathetic notes Martin drops throughout her characterization, or Martin failed to make them more clear. I feel like we should be on an emotional rollercoaster with her just like we were with Jaime and Theon. I felt this way for sure during the Walk.

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 13 March 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

Being a bitch and being a smart cunning bitch are two different things, and Cersei is the former not the latter.

I didnt say anything about her intelligence. You're implying she's a "dumb bitch," which takes all the power out of my original point - that she's a dangerous, badass bitch who doesn't give a fuck what men think of her.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Keep Shelly in Athens, on 14 March 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

From a July 2005 book signing:



I don't think she's supposed to be fully hated, like Gregor. The people that "love to hate her" are either missing the sympathetic notes Martin drops throughout her characterization, or Martin failed to make them more clear. I feel like we should be on an emotional rollercoaster with her just like we were with Jaime and Theon. I felt this way for sure during the Walk.



I didnt say anything about her intelligence. You're implying she's a "dumb bitch," which takes all the power out of my original point - that she's a dangerous, badass bitch who doesn't give a fuck what men think of her.

She is not badass; and it's not that she doesn't give a fuck about what "men" think of her, she thinks that she is better and smarter than everyone else, which she cleary isn't. Dumb bitch just about sums her up correctly. Lady Oleana is a badass, among the genteel highborn women.

As far as the walk goes, I was not on an emotional roller coaster with her, I laughed and cheered as read it.

Edited by Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, 14 March 2012 - 01:14 AM.

[Queen Cersei I]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 13 March 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:


I didn't pity her, I loved it. I pity the innocent people that she sent to Qyburn and all of the others who's lives she just callously dismissed as being irrelevant. It's just the tip of the iceberg for her.


A very common reaction amongst readers, and one that the books are arguably aimed at eliciting in their presentation of Cersei.

Readers are encouraged to hate Cersei on a deep, personal level as they are with no other villain.

What is so disturbing about her is how her sexual behavior is vaunted endlessly, and demonized endlessly. It is used to characterize her, shown as something that innately lessens her worth, and when Cersei "gets hers" it inevitably carries sexual overtones. Readers, male and female, generally are undaunted by this, and have no hesitation in cheering wildly for it, perhaps forgetting that no male villain is given this treatment. (In fact, LF does the exact same thing, and is not only not demonized for it, it is the woman he goes to be with Lysa, who is made to look like the grotesque fool.)


Anyway, in this latest venture, GRRM (for once) kept his tone carefully neutral, leading a few readers to feel sorry for Cersei. IMO, this was necessary, because even he knew he was treading on dangerous (and potentially inflammatory ground) with the walk thing. However, after his near obsessive and ridiculously excessive demonization of Cersei's sexual manipulations in AFFC and earlier books, I find it hard to believe that there wasn't an element of "the bitch getting hers" in this scenario.

There is a great deal of fear and hatred for women who use sex to get ahead in these book, and a great deal of time and page space dedicated to showing such behavior as evil, stupid, counterproductive, and doomed. One wonders what the author's hang up on this issue is, and, especially when one sees how the utterly different way he treats LF's sexual manipulations, what the message is. He seems to see Cersei's walk as tough justice-- as the whore being put back in her place, just as Tywin's treatment of Tytos mistress was. Because, though he is ambiguous about it, clearly Tywin got things done and was successful.

Anyway, throughout AFFC, Cersei's bad and stupid deeds are dwelt upon, we see her making traps for herself with all the finesse of Wile E. Coyote, and then readers cheer in drooling anticipation for the bitch to get hers, often in a grotesque, intricately detailed, sexually themed way. Cersei's character arc is as obvious as it is poorly written and contrived.

IMO, the poor writing, emotional manipulativness, and generally contrived nature are so rarely mentioned because fans, like the one above, are so happy to see Cersei get hers, i.e., be humiliated and tortured in a series of increasingly gross and explicit, blatantly sexual ways.

The interesting thing is, this is not "tough justice," as so many fans like to claim. If Cersei were being punished for her actual crimes, and people wanted to see torture that was actually "poetic justice" punishment for what she's done, it would not include ridiculous sexual humiliation like the walk. That was simply people being given the opportunity to get off on Cersei's sexual humiliation. True poetic justice might entail-- Cersei being tortured by Qyburn; Cersei being forced to put on a puppet show and then murdered; etc.

Furthermore, people's frequent attestations that "this is a tough world-- Jaime loses his sword hand, Theon is flayed alive, Cersei is paraded around naked." This comparison is wildly flawed because only a raging sadist would not feel sorry for Jaime's maiming or Theon's gelding and extended torture. The walk, however, can easily be written off as "only a walk." After all, Cersei was never physically harmed. It was not all that bad. it serves the double purpose of allowing readers to see Cersei broken, humiliated, and pushed into the ground, without having to feel the least bit of queasy pity for her. This is very much intentional on the author's part. He also clearly intends for audiences to be cheering and salivating for larger, more extended, and more humiliating punishments in the future. Hopefully with sexual themes.

Finally, the author's statement that it is based on history is pure b.s. Women have been paraded around in heavy nightgown like shifts historically, but there was nothing sexual about that. This incident had its genesis in the fantasies of George R.R. Martin, not historical reality.

As for the delightful and increasingly heinous sexualized punishments of Cersei-- I’d say, don't worry-- they are coming. However, first the sympathy that some readers have come to feel for her must be done away with. I think a great cure for this would be having her regain power (again, in this story arc, actual sense and decent plotting must take a backseat to seeing the bitch get hers), and go on a vengeance spree, torturing countless innocent people in kings landing, Lancel, Dorna, the rest of Lancel's innocent family in incredibly foul and intricately described ways. Then she will get fat, ugly, and continue to try to use sex to get ahead to disgusted unwilling men, much to the delight and amusement of the readers. Her physical decline will be described in disgusted detail, since the author apparently hates and fears ugliness in females, especially when it is ugliness related to age.

Anyway, the future of Cersei's character arc is easy to guess due to the ridiculously, contrived nature, lack of subtlety, and didactic message of the whole thing. After rising again to power, Cersei will go on to probably kill all other members of her house, alienate all her allies and enemies, get fat and ugly, alienate her son, cause the death of Myrcella, lose all her power after causing the death of countless people, lose Jaime's love, only to murder Tommen herself in her final, batshit insane moments. She will then be murdered by the heroic Jaime, who will murder her to the applause of audiences everywhere.

So, in the end, I’d say that if you, like many others, loved the walk, than don’t worry—there is plenty more where that came from.

[Winter's Knight]

Queen Cersei I, on 14 March 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

A very common reaction amongst readers, and one that the books are arguably aimed at eliciting in their presentation of Cersei.

Readers are encouraged to hate Cersei on a deep, personal level as they are with no other villain.

What is so disturbing about her is how her sexual behavior is vaunted endlessly, and demonized endlessly. It is used to characterize her, shown as something that innately lessens her worth, and when Cersei "gets hers" it inevitably carries sexual overtones. Readers, male and female, generally are undaunted by this, and have no hesitation in cheering wildly for it, perhaps forgetting that no male villain is given this treatment. (In fact, LF does the exact same thing, and is not only not demonized for it, it is the woman he goes to be with Lysa, who is made to look like the grotesque fool.)


Anyway, in this latest venture, GRRM (for once) kept his tone carefully neutral, leading a few readers to feel sorry for Cersei. IMO, this was necessary, because even he knew he was treading on dangerous (and potentially inflammatory ground) with the walk thing. However, after his near obsessive and ridiculously excessive demonization of Cersei's sexual manipulations in AFFC and earlier books, I find it hard to believe that there wasn't an element of "the bitch getting hers" in this scenario.

There is a great deal of fear and hatred for women who use sex to get ahead in these book, and a great deal of time and page space dedicated to showing such behavior as evil, stupid, counterproductive, and doomed. One wonders what the author's hang up on this issue is, and, especially when one sees how the utterly different way he treats LF's sexual manipulations, what the message is. He seems to see Cersei's walk as tough justice-- as the whore being put back in her place, just as Tywin's treatment of Tytos mistress was. Because, though he is ambiguous about it, clearly Tywin got things done and was successful.

Anyway, throughout AFFC, Cersei's bad and stupid deeds are dwelt upon, we see her making traps for herself with all the finesse of Wile E. Coyote, and then readers cheer in drooling anticipation for the bitch to get hers, often in a grotesque, intricately detailed, sexually themed way. Cersei's character arc is as obvious as it is poorly written and contrived.

IMO, the poor writing, emotional manipulativness, and generally contrived nature are so rarely mentioned because fans, like the one above, are so happy to see Cersei get hers, i.e., be humiliated and tortured in a series of increasingly gross and explicit, blatantly sexual ways.

The interesting thing is, this is not "tough justice," as so many fans like to claim. If Cersei were being punished for her actual crimes, and people wanted to see torture that was actually "poetic justice" punishment for what she's done, it would not include ridiculous sexual humiliation like the walk. That was simply people being given the opportunity to get off on Cersei's sexual humiliation. True poetic justice might entail-- Cersei being tortured by Qyburn; Cersei being forced to put on a puppet show and then murdered; etc.

Furthermore, people's frequent attestations that "this is a tough world-- Jaime loses his sword hand, Theon is flayed alive, Cersei is paraded around naked." This comparison is wildly flawed because only a raging sadist would not feel sorry for Jaime's maiming or Theon's gelding and extended torture. The walk, however, can easily be written off as "only a walk." After all, Cersei was never physically harmed. It was not all that bad. it serves the double purpose of allowing readers to see Cersei broken, humiliated, and pushed into the ground, without having to feel the least bit of queasy pity for her. This is very much intentional on the author's part. He also clearly intends for audiences to be cheering and salivating for larger, more extended, and more humiliating punishments in the future. Hopefully with sexual themes.

Finally, the author's statement that it is based on history is pure b.s. Women have been paraded around in heavy nightgown like shifts historically, but there was nothing sexual about that. This incident had its genesis in the fantasies of George R.R. Martin, not historical reality.

As for the delightful and increasingly heinous sexualized punishments of Cersei-- I’d say, don't worry-- they are coming. However, first the sympathy that some readers have come to feel for her must be done away with. I think a great cure for this would be having her regain power (again, in this story arc, actual sense and decent plotting must take a backseat to seeing the bitch get hers), and go on a vengeance spree, torturing countless innocent people in kings landing, Lancel, Dorna, the rest of Lancel's innocent family in incredibly foul and intricately described ways. Then she will get fat, ugly, and continue to try to use sex to get ahead to disgusted unwilling men, much to the delight and amusement of the readers. Her physical decline will be described in disgusted detail, since the author apparently hates and fears ugliness in females, especially when it is ugliness related to age.

Anyway, the future of Cersei's character arc is easy to guess due to the ridiculously, contrived nature, lack of subtlety, and didactic message of the whole thing. After rising again to power, Cersei will go on to probably kill all other members of her house, alienate all her allies and enemies, get fat and ugly, alienate her son, cause the death of Myrcella, lose all her power after causing the death of countless people, lose Jaime's love, only to murder Tommen herself in her final, batshit insane moments. She will then be murdered by the heroic Jaime, who will murder her to the applause of audiences everywhere.

So, in the end, I’d say that if you, like many others, loved the walk, than don’t worry—there is plenty more where that came from.

Gods I hope  you are wrong. I found the Walk to be very difficult reading and was in tears when she finally collapse in the courtyard and cried out for Tommen.

If she decides,  in the next book, to slaughter the High Septon and Lancel, I will cheer her on.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

What I found disturbing is how Kevan could have allowed his niece to undergo such an ordeal. Even if he personally thought Cersei deserved it, didn't he see that bringing that amount of shame on Cersei ultimately shames House Lannister as a whole?

Do you think Lord Tywin would ever allow his daughter, the Queen Dowager of the Seven Kingdoms, to be paraded through the streets of King's Landing as naked as her name-day for every Flea Bottom commoner to gawk and laugh at? He would NEVER because he understood that the House needed to always show a united front and that the family must ALWAYS maintain dignity and respect from the people for which they meant to rule.

Not only did that parade of Cersei diminish her on a personal level but it faded the glory of the Lannisters and the authority of the Iron Throne itself. Kevan allowed the Sept of Baelor to dictate to the Red Keep and that is something that his elder brother would not stand for. Shame on Kevan for agreeing to such a display. The High Sparrow would have been terrified to even suggest something so debased to the former Lord of Casterly Rock.

[Keep Shelly in Athens]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 14 March 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

She is not badass; and it's not that she doesn't give a fuck about what "men" think of her, she thinks that she is better and smarter than everyone else, which she cleary isn't. Dumb bitch just about sums her up correctly. Lady Oleana is a badass, among the genteel highborn women. As far as the walk goes, I was not on an emotional roller coaster with her, I laughed and cheered as read it.

Again you're missing my point. You seem to have a very narrow conception of "badass," as if successfully achieving a goal matters more than desiring it. I see Cersei as a humanized, femme fatale of ASOIAF. The fact that she wants to make men's bowels loosen with her stare makes her badass; the fact that she can't makes her tragic. She fucks traditional gender, not by being sharp with a blade or with immaculately layered plots, but by the fact that she wants men's power, specifically their official, public titles. And she wants to do it on her own, without (re-marrying) a husband. Regardless of whether she actually achieves that, she's still a Major Bitch of the series. And yes, I'm reclaiming that as a positive term.

Edited by Keep Shelly in Athens, 14 March 2012 - 02:59 AM.

[Keep Shelly in Athens]

Queen Cersei I, on 14 March 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

Her physical decline will be described in disgusted detail, since the author apparently hates and fears ugliness in females, especially when it is ugliness related to age.

I wonder if Martin is trying to be "historically accurate" here about life expectancy in the middle ages, so that the 30-somethings of the past would be seen as the 60-something of today. Or, maybe he was just being creepy about women's bodies again.