104 replies to this topic

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Queen Cersei I, on 14 March 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

Snip

Please do not quote me about "how her sexual behavior is vaunted endlessly", or "Readers are encouraged to hate Cersei on a deep, personal level as they are with no other villain." I have said, more times than I care to, that I don't give a shit who Cersei has sex with, it's her vagina and she, and GRRM, can do with it as she pleases, for all I care; the laws and rules of the Faith of the Seven, are two different things. We all know what a feminist trailblazer Cersei is; Poor Maergery had her vagina probed and examined because of the lies that POOR Cersei spread. IIRC, Cercei was gleefully imagining Maergery’s reaction to have her “cunt” probed. Poor wittle Cercei showed no mercy for Lolly’s who was raped by 50 men. Cersei the Benevolent, wished rape on a Septa because her wittle feelings were hurt while she was imprisoned.  So do you really expect me to care that she was humiliated sexually?  Cersei the Visionary, is the one who armed the Faith of the Seven to begin with, thinking, as only Cersei can, that they would be pawns for her to use as she wanted.  

I have read this same, rather tired and tedious, argument whenever I, and others, voice opinions about enjoying her walk of shame, not feeling appalled by it or not pitying her because of it, and at this point, not your or our opinions or reactions to that scene will change so…  I enjoyed the fact that Cersei, a poor, innocent, misunderstood female who is doing her best to make it GRRM's misgynistic tale, was forced to walk nude and shaved in front of all of King's Landing as a punishment for her sexual crimes. She is a fictional character and no real person was harmed in the story.
So please cease with the outrage and being butthurt, I stole that word from someone, over people looking forward to evil characters demise.

Do you take offense at my comment of wanting Ramsay Bolton flayed alive and burned while choking on his penis? Surely, I am certain this invokes a facet of misandry with the whole castration thing? Of course not, he an evil, misogynistic, psychopathic rapist and a MALE to boot and your precious Queen Cersei, only "sent" people to be disscected alive.  Oh, I forgot, the HS doesn't know about that, but readers are not supposed to hold that little bitty thing against her, because she wasn't charged with that.  I cheered when Jon beheaded Janos Slynt, does that make me man hater as well, he only beat an innocent little girl at the behest of his king?

So, in the end, I’d say that if you, like many others, have a problem with “Cersei's character arc is being easy to guess due to the ridiculously, contrived nature, lack of subtlety, and didactic message of the whole thing.” Stop reading the Cersei hate posts and let the rest of us enjoy an evil character receive a small piece comeuppance.

[SerBarristan]

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There is a great deal of fear and hatred for women who use sex to get ahead in these book, and a great deal of time and page space dedicated to showing such behavior as evil, stupid, counterproductive, and doomed. One wonders what the author's hang up on this issue is, and, especially when one sees how the utterly different way he treats LF's sexual manipulations, what the message is. He seems to see Cersei's walk as tough justice-- as the whore being put back in her place, just as Tywin's treatment of Tytos mistress was. Because, though he is ambiguous about it, clearly Tywin got things done and was successful.

A) Outside of Cersei, what other female character use sex to get what they want and are punished for it?

Cersei is dumb. She could restrict herself to non-sexual tactics and she'd still be dumb. Her failure does not stem from her methods...

C) Colorful adjectives aside, why is it wrong to depict sexual manipulation as wrong? Should women (or men for that matter) use sex to get what they want, be it wealth or power?? That norm doesn't strike me as all that repugnant, unless there's a double standard between men/women, which leads to....

D) We don't know what happens to LF, but I suspect he will pay for his numerous crimes as well, before the story is done, which, by the way, it isn't...

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The interesting thing is, this is not "tough justice," as so many fans like to claim. If Cersei were being punished for her actual crimes, and people wanted to see torture that was actually "poetic justice" punishment for what she's done, it would not include ridiculous sexual humiliation like the walk. That was simply people being given the opportunity to get off on Cersei's sexual humiliation. True poetic justice might entail-- Cersei being tortured by Qyburn; Cersei being forced to put on a puppet show and then murdered; etc.

You're not a mindreader, so the claim about GRRM's intent is just a guess. Yes, Cersei would've deserved torture and death for her many vile deeds. The list of valid and heinous punishments we could brainstorm would be very long indeed. Instead, we got "The Walk," a punishment that succeeded on many levels. First, the sexual humiliation seemed to fit rather nicely with Cersei's previously mentioned sexual manipulations. Not to mention the fact that Cersei was scheming to nail Margaery for her alleged sexual behavior and ended up on the receiving end. That seems poetic to me.

Bigger picture, "The Walk" succeeds because GRRM set up the reader to desperately want Cersei to fall from grace and what we got was a punishment that was, for me at least, quite jarring. Sure, it was satisfying to see the tables turned, but I doubt any reasonable reader finishes "The Walk" without feeling that it wasn't a little f#cked up what was happened to her. Perhaps I'm an outlier in that regard.

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Furthermore, people's frequent attestations that "this is a tough world-- Jaime loses his sword hand, Theon is flayed alive, Cersei is paraded around naked." This comparison is wildly flawed because only a raging sadist would not feel sorry for Jaime's maiming or Theon's gelding and extended torture. The walk, however, can easily be written off as "only a walk." After all, Cersei was never physically harmed. It was not all that bad. it serves the double purpose of allowing readers to see Cersei broken, humiliated, and pushed into the ground, without having to feel the least bit of queasy pity for her. This is very much intentional on the author's part. He also clearly intends for audiences to be cheering and salivating for larger, more extended, and more humiliating punishments in the future. Hopefully with sexual themes.

This I need explained to me because I admit I don't get it: So what?

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As for the delightful and increasingly heinous sexualized punishments of Cersei-- I’d say, don't worry-- they are coming. However, first the sympathy that some readers have come to feel for her must be done away with. I think a great cure for this would be having her regain power (again, in this story arc, actual sense and decent plotting must take a backseat to seeing the bitch get hers), and go on a vengeance spree, torturing countless innocent people in kings landing, Lancel, Dorna, the rest of Lancel's innocent family in incredibly foul and intricately described ways. Then she will get fat, ugly, and continue to try to use sex to get ahead to disgusted unwilling men, much to the delight and amusement of the readers. Her physical decline will be described in disgusted detail, since the author apparently hates and fears ugliness in females, especially when it is ugliness related to age.

Where does the author's hatred for female ugliness become clear in the text? Brienne isn't attractive, yet GRRM doesn't hate or fear her. On the contrary, she's noble beyond measure. Beacon of honor. Etc. In fact, she may well die because she's a good person, but I highly doubt it will be because she's "ugly."

I get that you think Cersei's arc is predictable, but I can't help reading this and think you also believe GRRM is some lecherous, exploitative scoundrel who gets his jollies from raping her (figuratively speaking)... Why though?

Please correct me if I've misconstrued your critique.

Edited by SerBarristan, 14 March 2012 - 03:47 AM.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Keep Shelly in Athens, on 14 March 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

Again you're missing my point. You seem to have a very narrow conception of "badass," as if successfully achieving one's goals matters more than desiring them. I see Cersei as a humanized, femme fatale of ASOIAF. The fact that she wants to make men's bowels loosen with her stare makes her badass; the fact that she can't makes her tragic. She fucks traditional gender, not by being sharp with a blade or with subtle plots, but by the fact that she wants men's power, specifically their official, public titles. Regardless of whether she actually gets them, she's still a major bitch. And yes, I'm reclaiming that as a positive term.

I am not "missing" your point. The only reason that she wields any power to make a "a man loosen his bowels is because she is the Queen. I, ME, MYSELF do not consider her a bad-ass.  Arya, Ygritte, Mormont women, Lady Oleana, Osha, Asha and Catelyn, to an extent, are bad-asses. You are entitled to see her that way.

[Keep Shelly in Athens]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 14 March 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

You are entitled to see her that way.

Okay that's good to know, because your original post directed at me concealed a tone of "correction" as if I WASN'T entitled to see her that way.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Keep Shelly in Athens, on 14 March 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

Okay that's good to know, because your original post directed at me concealed a tone of "correction" as if I WASN'T entitled to see her that way.

Everyone is entitled to see people the way that THEY want to. Most of the Cersei lovers need to realize that.

[Queen Cersei I]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 14 March 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

Please do not quote me about "how her sexual behavior is vaunted endlessly", or "Readers are encouraged to hate Cersei on a deep, personal level as they are with no other villain." I have said, more times than I care to, that I don't give a shit who Cersei has sex with, it's her vagina and she, and GRRM, can do with it as she pleases, for all I care; the laws and rules of the Faith of the Seven, are two different things. We all know what a feminist trailblazer Cersei is; Poor Maergery had her vagina probed and examined because of the lies that POOR Cersei spread. IIRC, Cercei was gleefully imagining Maergery’s reaction to have her “cunt” probed. Poor wittle Cercei showed no mercy for Lolly’s who was raped by 50 men. Cersei the Benevolent, wished rape on a Septa because her wittle feelings were hurt while she was imprisoned.  

Huh? I missed the part where I ever called Cersei a "feminist trailblazer" or dubbed her "Cersei the Benevolent." It seems as though all subtlety and nuance of my argument are lost here... oh well...

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 14 March 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

I have read this same, rather tired and tedious, argument whenever I, and others, voice opinions about enjoying her walk of shame, not feeling appalled by it or not pitying her because of it, and at this point, not your or our opinions or reactions to that scene will change so…

And I have read the same, rather tired and tedious schoolgirlish/ boyish glee whenever I, or others, voice opinions about pitying her on her walk. You generally repeat how much you delighted in it, how much the bitch deserved it, and how being disgusted by it is (somehow) a betrayal of all of Cersei's victims. (Talk about repetitive arguments-- you've said that each and every time I've seen you object to someone saying they pitied Cersei. And take note of that-- not that everyone should pity Cersei, not that all people who didn't pity Cersei were bad people--but how they pitied Cersei.

Meanwhile, all I've ever done is point out a. how the scene seems painted to encourage a certain sort of reaction from readers and b. how I find the profession of some posters (such as yourself, who has made the claim repeatedly) that Cersei's walk was her getting her "just desserts" rather baffling. How does sexual humilliation have anything to do with that? Wouldn't there be countless activities more fitting? In the end, my response to posts like yours is utter bafflement.

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 14 March 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

I enjoyed the fact that Cersei, a poor, innocent, misunderstood female who

Wow. I have never argued that. Ever. Good Lord.

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 14 March 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

I enjoyed the fact that Cersei, a poor, innocent, misunderstood female who is doing her best to make it GRRM's misgynistic tale, was forced to walk nude and shaved in front of all of King's Landing as a punishment for her sexual crimes.

Sexual crimes? That Cersei has committed numerous crimes has never been up for debate. But what crimes has she committed that were sexual in nature?

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 14 March 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

. She is a fictional character and no real person was harmed in the story.

Yes, but I would use the same argument here that I used in response to the poster who said that there was nothing wrong with wishing rape upon Cersei, since she is a fictional character. To argue that wishing sexually themed humiliations on a female character is the same as doing so to a person in real life is ridiculous. However, to argue that these wishes say nothing whatsoever about you as a person is not quite accurate.

Furthermore, I have yet to get upset; I have simply and politely objected in the past to the delight some seem to take in Cersei's sexually themed embarrassments. Here I did not even do that-- I merely made some attempts to examine the origin of gleeful statements like yours.

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 14 March 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

Do you take offense at my comment of wanting Ramsay Bolton flayed alive and burned while choking on his penis?

I admit to finding that.... incredibly disturbing and gross, yes. I don't see why you wouldn't just want quick capital punishment for both Cersei and Ramsay, but whatever.

Also-- I've never argued that Cersei is good, benevolent, or any of the things you randomly accuse me of saying here. I have always contended that she deserves death for her crimes. However, I have no real desire to see her tortured in a sexually themed manner, no.

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 14 March 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

So please cease with the outrage and being butthurt, I stole that word from someone, over people looking forward to evil characters demise.

Erm...butthurt? Whatever. Anyway, I have no problem whatsover with people rooting for Cersei's demise; would that that were the case. Unfortunately, you were wishing for a continued stream of sexually based and increasingly heinous humiliations/ punishments to be sent Cersei's way in future books. That is not wishing for her demise, not really.

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 14 March 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

Do you take offense at my comment of wanting Ramsay Bolton flayed alive and burned while choking on his penis? Surely, I am certain this invokes a facet of misandry with the whole castration thing? Of course not, he an evil, misogynistic, psychopathic rapist and a MALE to boot and your precious Queen Cersei, only "sent" people to be disscected alive.  

Again, male or female, sexually themed torture and humiliation grosses me out. The difference is I have yet to see you or anyone else wish such a thing upon Ramsay Snow, until this moment. And yes, I find wishing to see a man castrated pretty misandist. And, again, gross. So, the fact that Ramsay is male (or, as you put it, MALE) really has nothing to do with my feelings about him being mutilated.

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 14 March 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

your precious Queen Cersei, only "sent" people to be disscected alive.  

I have never defended Cersei's disgusting deeds in regards to Qyburn, nor will you ever see me defend them. I have always contended that she deserves death or life imprisonment for this and her other evil deeds. The fact that I am against sexually themed humilation and torture by no means indicates that I approve of or agree with her actions on any level.

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 14 March 2012 - 04:02 AM.

[Keep Shelly in Athens]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 14 March 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

Everyone is entitled to see people the way that THEY want to. Most of the Cersei lovers need to realize that.

ughhhhh I'm not a "Cersei lover" like Justin Bieber fans are "Bieber lovers." Jon Snow is actually my favorite character; has always been, and always will be. I despised Cersei throughout 99% of the books.

I jump to Cersei's defense on rare occasions 1. when I see the author trying to give her something every good comic book villain has: a point of view, 2. when her talents for seeing patriarchy go unappreciated, and 3. as a fun mental exercise so I don't fall into the trap of reducing the characters to soap opera stereotypes. And that's it. All the other times, she's a psycho hosebeast of a woman, right out of Wayne and Garth's worst heavy metal nightmares.

[str8 outta Old Town]

Keep Shelly in Athens, on 13 March 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

All I know is that if I wanted to be rule the 7 Kingdoms without a husband, I'd have to be the biggest bitch on the planet.

It's not the ruling that bothers me so much as the murdering, torturing, self-involvement, self-deception, scheming, petulance and insanity. Littlefinger does things just as bad as Cersei does, but he doesn't believe his own propaganda, which is why reading Cersei's self-justifying drivel of an internal monologue is so enjoyable. You actually find yourself shouting things like "Your son was a sadistic little shit!", "Do you have any idea how stupid what you are doing is?" and "Why would you possibly think that?".

Edited by str8 outta Old Town, 14 March 2012 - 04:41 AM.

[Sun]

Keep Shelly in Athens, on 14 March 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

From a July 2005 book signing:



I don't think she's supposed to be fully hated, like Gregor. The people that "love to hate her" are either missing the sympathetic notes Martin drops throughout her characterization, or Martin failed to make them more clear. I feel like we should be on an emotional rollercoaster with her just like we were with Jaime and Theon. I felt this way for sure during the Walk.



I didnt say anything about her intelligence. You're implying she's a "dumb bitch," which takes all the power out of my original point - that she's a dangerous, badass bitch who doesn't give a fuck what men think of her.

I am one of those who love hating Cersie, and no I'm not missing any notes from GRRM. As a woman, I felt every step she took in that walk of shame... keenly. but I refused to allow myself to pity her, just as I refused to allow myself to pity Theon, despite the  far less deserved horrors that he has suffered and that GRRM went to great literary pain to draw for us both physically and psychologically. Sometimes, I just don't want to dance to the author's tune. Sometimes, while fully aware of the author's manipulation, or because of it, I prefer to make my own judgements on the characters and buck against whatever emotion the author tries to evoke. This last point also applies to some extent to Dany's chapters in the first 3 books.
Cersie's crimes are numerous and horrible, and regardless what crime the walk of shame was devised for by the HS, I as a reader know that it is the least that she deserves for all that I know she has done, and even though I might cringe in reading, I refuse to allow myself the luxury of pitying her.

Also, you do Cersie an injustice when you compare the hate I as a reader hold for her with my feeling towards Gregor Clegane. To me Gregor is a paper doll, 2 dimensional and a waste of my time. I harbour no feelings towards him whatsoever. I however looove hating Cersie, because she is worthy of my hate. She gives just reward for my emotional investment in reading her & dissecting her character.

Edited by Sun, 14 March 2012 - 05:20 AM.

[Silmarien]

I've always loved Cersei.

[Fragile Bird]

Fragile Bird, on 12 March 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Well since there's a love-in going on for Jaime, why don't we start a parallel one for Cersei and see what comes out of the woodwork.

Feel free to explain why you love her, or not.  Write with a straight face, or not.

There are rules here:  be polite, no flaming, no trolls.

I am repeating this because I don't want the tone of this thread to derail.

Feel free to explain why you love her or not.  There are other threads for the psychology of the characters.

Be polite, no flaming,no trolls.

Thanking you in advance!

[Fragile Bird]

LOL, good way to kill a thread, ask people to be polite!

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

LOL

Cersei was brilliant when she slept with her uber awesome brother (sorry but he's hawt! well, actor certainly is)

Cersei was an idiot when she didn't appreciate what she had with him.  She expected him to give up all for her but wasn't willing to do the same in return.

Sadly, he honestly DID love her and was truly devoted to her.  If only she'd had the foresight to appreciate it, she may have been *gasp* happy

[James Arryn]

She originally had or seemed to have more depth. She's the exact opposite of the Jamie/etc. POV's...the more you see inside her head, the less you see.

Edited by James Arryn, 14 March 2012 - 10:44 PM.

[_Oberyn_]

Something about a myrish swamp....

[StannisBarFTW]

TBH Cercei is one of my most hated character, shes just a dumb drunky whore.

Yeah she plots and schemes a lot but all those plots and scheme end in massive failure, heres a few examples.

- She kills Robert so Joff could be king, and she queen regent ( in her thoughts she would reign instaed of joff and we all know how did this one went)

- She gave the weapons back to the Faith (this is the mother of all stupidity, shes still paying  for this one)

I could be here and keep writting a big wall of text with all her stupid decisions, but this is only part of the problem, she is not only stupid, shes not even smart enough to realise how stupid she is, cuz she does all these HUGE mistakes and still thinks shes so smart and better than all her family.
Personnaly I blame the wine.

Edited by StannisBarFTW, 14 March 2012 - 11:22 PM.

[Fire Eater]

SerBarristan, on 14 March 2012 - 02:58 AM, said:

A) Outside of Cersei, what other female character use sex to get what they want and are punished for it?

Cersei is dumb. She could restrict herself to non-sexual tactics and she'd still be dumb. Her failure does not stem from her methods...

C) Colorful adjectives aside, why is it wrong to depict sexual manipulation as wrong? Should women (or men for that matter) use sex to get what they want, be it wealth or power?? That norm doesn't strike me as all that repugnant, unless there's a double standard between men/women, which leads to....

D) We don't know what happens to LF, but I suspect he will pay for his numerous crimes as well, before the story is done, which, by the way, it isn't...



You're not a mindreader, so the claim about GRRM's intent is just a guess. Yes, Cersei would've deserved torture and death for her many vile deeds. The list of valid and heinous punishments we could brainstorm would be very long indeed. Instead, we got "The Walk," a punishment that succeeded on many levels. First, the sexual humiliation seemed to fit rather nicely with Cersei's previously mentioned sexual manipulations. Not to mention the fact that Cersei was scheming to nail Margaery for her alleged sexual behavior and ended up on the receiving end. That seems poetic to me.

Bigger picture, "The Walk" succeeds because GRRM set up the reader to desperately want Cersei to fall from grace and what we got was a punishment that was, for me at least, quite jarring. Sure, it was satisfying to see the tables turned, but I doubt any reasonable reader finishes "The Walk" without feeling that it wasn't a little f#cked up what was happened to her. Perhaps I'm an outlier in that regard.



This I need explained to me because I admit I don't get it: So what?



Where does the author's hatred for female ugliness become clear in the text? Brienne isn't attractive, yet GRRM doesn't hate or fear her. On the contrary, she's noble beyond measure. Beacon of honor. Etc. In fact, she may well die because she's a good person, but I highly doubt it will be because she's "ugly."

I get that you think Cersei's arc is predictable, but I can't help reading this and think you also believe GRRM is some lecherous, exploitative scoundrel who gets his jollies from raping her (figuratively speaking)... Why though?

Please correct me if I've misconstrued your critique.

Plus, Cersei gaining weight is just one of the ways GRRM shows that she is becoming Robert, the husband she hated, alongside sex with multiple partners, complaining about ruling and excessive drinking.

I agree with Queen Cersei I that Cersei may wipe out Kevan's family, I wouldn't put it past her, since given her growing paranoia, Lancel revealing info to the High Septons combined with thinking that Kevan was bribed by the Tyrells and conspired with them, that she would have his family killed just to avoid any retaliation from them.

[Winterborn]

You know...I always loved Cersei as a villain. She's so over the top, she might as well be a Bond villain with an island fortress and sharks with laser beams.

She was the character I loved to hate. And like most Bond villains, hubris was her downfall. She was just so arrogant. Where Tywin or Tyrion or heck, even Jaime would have showed restraint and caution and discretion, Cersei would have to make a vulgar display of power just to prove that she could.

In ADWD, I finally learned to love Cersei as more than a 2-dimensional villain.

I don't think the walk of shame broke her. It stripped her of her arrogance and illusions, maybe, but I don't think it broke her. She didn't lose her pride or her drive to conquer in the experience - it was just tempered into something else, something stronger and more dangerous.

So in the scene where she is having dinner with Tommen and Kevan, her uncle is a little sad, a little regretful that Cersei was humiliated, thinking that she had finally learned her place, but lost her fire in the process. He's watching Cersei act as meek and sober as a Septa, and buying it totally.

In that moment I was silently cheering for Cersei. Oh Kevan, I thought, you have no idea. She's just biding her time. When she makes her comeback, it will be glorious.

[Kitten]

She's not my fav character, but I really like her since she is bedding her twin

The Storm Queen, on 12 March 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

She is not my favourite character but my third favourite female character :-)
My top 3 Cersei moments:
- The scene when she contrast her and Jaime´s education (and the way she was going to be used soley as brood mare) broke my heart and made me justify much of the shit she has pulled off.
- 90% mess, 10% magic - and the magic turns out to be the biggest mess . Another moment where I felt real sorry for her
- Her pride and strength when Ned tries to confront her. She owns this scene

I think she lacks empathy and of course I can not agree with everything she has done, but her chapters are deep and touching, IMHO.
When Jaime refused her in the white sword tower, I feel confused, afraid and angry along with her.

Edited by Kitten, 18 March 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[ServantOnIce]

Not my favorite character but she became an interesting character when

1. She tried to "mentor" Sansa in "Clash of Kings"

2. In "AFFC" that was awesome, great stuff, you saw Cersei's dream come true and how quickly her complete incompetence turned it into a nightmare

3. The Maggy the Frog prophesy . . .