402 replies to this topic

[Ivy Snow]

She's just too full of herself and the people around her are often awed by her beauty that it makes them overlook some of her flaws. People around her feeds her ego as well.

Quote

You cannot claim them all, child," Ser Jorah said, the fourth time they stopped, while the warriors of her khas herded her new slaves behind her.
"I am khaleesi, heir to the Seven Kingdoms, the blood of the dragon," Dany reminded him. "It is not for you to tell me what I cannot do."

^^^^^ THAT was one thing that made me go " OHKAYYYYYYY" * rolls eyes*. Sure you are the blood of whatever but that doesn't make you right about everything. She has that " My decisions should be followed because it's right. I'm right" kind of mentality. Maybe not always but most of the time.

[Apple Martini]

Ivy Snow, on 29 April 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

She's just too full of herself and the people around her are often awed by her beauty that it makes them overlook some of her flaws. People around her feeds her ego as well.

Sure you are the blood of whatever but that doesn't make you right about everything. She has that " My decisions should be followed because it's right. I'm right" kind of mentality. Maybe not always but most of the time.

Exactly. She doesn't want advisers, she wants kiss-asses and sycophants. Disagree with her and tell her that you (or she!) can't do something, and how dare you. Say what you will about Stannis, but he'd rather hear an unpleasant truth from Davos than nonsense that reinforces what he already wants to believe.

Edited by Apple Martini, 29 April 2012 - 11:30 PM.

[Ivy Snow]

Apple Martini, on 29 April 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

Exactly. She doesn't want advisers, she wants kiss-asses and sycophants. Disagree with her and tell her you can't do something, and how dare you. Say what you will about Stannis, but he'd rather hear an unpleasant truth from Davos than nonsense that reinforces what he already wants to believe.

You said it perfectly, Apple Martini. Stannis. I respect him for that. He will listen on what you have to say and think about it. He asks Davos for advice since he knows Davod will tell him the truth no matter how much he would hate it. I remember a scene where he asked to be left alone with Davos so he can talk to him, because he knows other lords around him only kisses his ass and agrees on whatever he says but Davod would tell him the truth. That's what I liked about him.


Dany isn't like that. If she thinks she's right, she's right and no one else should say otherwise. If you appear to be lecturing her, she'll say " how dare you!" thing. We've seen her do that so I don't doubt if she'll do that again.

[cooper56]

Shes one of my favorites personally.... Only thing i dont like is her story seems slow. I think that will change in last two books. I hope she ether gets the throne or dies in epic way actually doing something.

[Im With Stannis]

When she was banging Daario, decided to marry Hidzar and turned down Xaros offer of FREE SHIPS and passage to Westeros. Least favorite? No, but her storyline has gotten quite stale.

[RickonTheBAMF]

When she tied herself up in a Meereenese knot. When she tore her way from Astapor to Meereen, I thought she had it together. When she sat around and put herself into an untenable situation, and stayed there, she lost a lot of her luster.

[PatrickStormborn]

Apple Martini, on 29 April 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

I don't know, am I? I see very little worth rooting for.

ETA: I would love — LOVE — to see your reaction if Martin ends up making Dany be a red herring and/or an antagonist. The whole "oh yeah Dany's definitely Azor Ahai!" thing is laid on so damn heavily in the books that it's blindingly obvious that something else is going on there.

Perhaps you should go back and read my posts, because you've quite clearly missed the point.

Daenerys can be a hero and still be an antagonist depending on the POV. After reading through some SSMs about his goal for the series, this is where I think Martin is going.

[Hear Us Roar]

Dance. Dithering in Merren and the blunder after blunder

[butterbumps!]

@PatrickStormborn

I completely got your point that a character can be a hero and an antagonist simultaneously.  In this specific case, though, you're contending that she will be a savior (hero) for humanity (as she and her dragons will fight the Others), but in what way do you believe her to be an antagonist?  I tried looking for an earlier post that might have mentioned this, but I can't recall what you about how the non-hero POV might play out.

[Scipio Africanus]

The problem with Dany is that most of her antics take place thousends of miles from the real events that actually matter, e.g. the coming of the Others and Winter.
Especially in ADWD its like, oh dear what's Theon/Reek up to oh noes he's jumping into the moat trying to escape with "Arya" and...back to Dany, today wearing a blue torkah (which she jokingly refers to as floppy ears" nibbling a fig. Then she gets betrayed (she always gets betrayed in EVERY damn POV) and we're off to Westeros again.
Hey what's Jonny boy up to...aha he's trying to save Wildlings and bloody Giants even though the NW and Stannis/Seleyne don't like that. Oh I hope this ends well. Hey a message from Cottor Pyke, whome Jon sent up north to save more Wildlings, oh noes he's shipwrecked and oh noes THEY'RE HERE! Lets see what happens next and...we're back to Dany. Today wearing a yellow torkah, while fantasizing over some psychopath sporting a blue beard, Dany is absolutely betrayed by everyone around yet again. While nibbling a fig of course. Oh mr. Martin, you sure spin an exciting tale of (what I presume) is the main hero.

The other problem with Dany is that despite she has like a 100 POVs and its obvious Martin pegged her to be the main hero and saviour, all she ends up doing is torching the place. Everywhere she goes hundreds if not thousends of people get killed. If not through war or her dragons, the pale mare will get them. Nice damn saviour you got there Martin, Westeros surely needs her as much as they need the plague. Only death and destruction follow in her wake. Not only that, she seems absolutely bullheaded and won't listen to anyone. Now if she had some sort of fiery resolute personality and leadership traits...but no, all she does is doubt en titter away while everything around her falls to pieces. Fortunately she has the deus ex machanica on her side: those bloody dragons. Which we don't get to see very often.
And why the bloody hell are half the POV characters looking for her? If I were them I'd stay away from her as far as possible. All you hear from her are tales of death, pestilence, rape and destruction, yet everyone wants her.

Which brings us to the last problem, the people that surround her are douchebags. Drogo is a psychopath, marrying some 13 years old while he is at least twice her age. His idea of a fun time is murdering and raping people. Then there's Jeor Monmonth. A traiturous brute who apparently like little kids (Dany) and a slaving bastard. Longclaw has a much better owner now. Then there's Daario, a man who looks like a comic relief character with a penchant for knocking off heads. If he were an Orc in a Tolkien tale you wouldn't know the difference. Admittingly Strong Belwas is pretty cool but he only has like one bloody fight. Selmy is also an ok guy but there are plenty of ok guys in Westeros.

To think Dany is the main cause that Martin is dragging the series is actually quite amusing. Dany has nothing in her to be the saviour of humanity and the conquerer of Westeros. Yet everything revolves around her...

[BabyMeraxes]

I think another big problem preventing people from liking Dany is that it's often assumed that she's going to be AA, the messiah figure in the series, and I think a lot of people's knee-jerk is to resist that especially when the character in question makes glaring mistakes, or, as is pretty apparent with Dany, they feel they deserve it. I think a big reason why I've been such a fervent supporter of Dany is because I've always seen her as a character who's story was going to end tragically (Has any Targaryen ever had a happy ending?), and all this shit about, "Daenerys is our hope!" and AA is going to make it that much more terrible when she goes down.

[Apple Martini]

butterbumps!, on 30 April 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

@PatrickStormborn

I completely got your point that a character can be a hero and an antagonist simultaneously.  In this specific case, though, you're contending that she will be a savior (hero) for humanity (as she and her dragons will fight the Others), but in what way do you believe her to be an antagonist?  I tried looking for an earlier post that might have mentioned this, but I can't recall what you about how the non-hero POV might play out.

She'll be an antagonist to the Big Mean People who don't immediately fall in line and kiss her ass.

[oba]

Apple Martini, on 30 April 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

She'll be an antagonist to the Big Mean People who don't immediately fall in line and kiss her ass.

You mean the Straw Men?

[Apple Martini]

oba, on 30 April 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

You mean the Straw Men?

From her perspective, sure.

[TheWrongKindOfSnow]

BabyMeraxes, on 30 April 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

I think another big problem preventing people from liking Dany is that it's often assumed that she's going to be AA, the messiah figure in the series, and I think a lot of people's knee-jerk is to resist that especially when the character in question makes glaring mistakes, or, as is pretty apparent with Dany, they feel they deserve it. I think a big reason why I've been such a fervent supporter of Dany is because I've always seen her as a character who's story was going to end tragically (Has any Targaryen ever had a happy ending?), and all this shit about, "Daenerys is our hope!" and AA is going to make it that much more terrible when she goes down.

I think you've captured some of the reasons I don't like her. She's more interesting than some of the other characters to me, but she's definitely one of my most disliked. In the beginning you could have sympathy for her. But her arrogance and unjustified belief in her own right to power is extremely off-putting. Although I think it's better that it's made clear that she's making serious mistakes - it makes her attitude more annoying, but it's better than having the "messiah" character too perfect. However, I don't think I'd like her any more if it turned out that there's a tragic ending to her story - it's her self-belief in her messiah status that makes me dislike her, not the actuality of whether or not she ends up winning the throne.

Other characters' attitudes towards her make it worse too - numerous men falling in love with her is irritating but perfectly believable; intelligent characters believing she's the saviour of the world suggest that there's a real chance that that's the ending the series is heading for, and make me like her even less.

[Apple Martini]

TheWrongKindOfSnow, on 30 April 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

intelligent characters believing she's the saviour of the world suggest that there's a real chance that that's the ending the series is heading for

I think it's the opposite. It's because so many people think she's the savior figure that I think that in the end, she won't be.

[BabyMeraxes]

TheWrongKindOfSnow, on 30 April 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

I think you've captured some of the reasons I don't like her. She's more interesting than some of the other characters to me, but she's definitely one of my most disliked. In the beginning you could have sympathy for her. But her arrogance and unjustified belief in her own right to power is extremely off-putting.

I know this isn't an awesome defense, but I think Dany believes Westeros is swimming in treacherous snakes, obvious DBags who are fucking up the country her family ruled for centuries. We, as semi-omnipotent readers can see that's not the case, and that some of the people poised to rule would probably do a decent job. So, if I'm looking at this from exclusively Dany's perspective, I can see why should would need to dress herself in this savior/conquerer mantle. It makes the whole ordeal seem more manageable. Of course, when I take myself out of her perspective, I'm like, "Girl, you better educate yourself before you go traipsing into a melee, torching whatever shit looks shadiest."

[Apple Martini]

BabyMeraxes, on 30 April 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

I know this isn't an awesome defense, but I think Dany believes Westeros is swimming in treacherous snakes, obvious DBags who are fucking up the country her family ruled for centuries. We, as semi-omnipotent readers can see that's not the case, and that some of the people poised to rule would probably do a decent job. So, if I'm looking at this from exclusively Dany's perspective, I can see why should would need to dress herself in this savior/conquerer mantle. It makes the whole ordeal seem more manageable. Of course, when I take myself out of her perspective, I'm like, "Girl, you better educate yourself before you go traipsing into a melee, torching whatever shit looks shadiest."

See, I can totally agree with this. From Dany's perspective, her cause is just. The interesting thing is, up until ADWD, Dany's perspective was the only one we had of her in real time. Have you noticed that even really reprehensible characters, like Cersei, can seem more sympathetic and likeable in their own POVs? Not that Dany is as bad as Cersei, I'm just using her as an example. As awful as I think Cersei is, it's hard to read her POV and not come away with some measure of empathy. Likewise, I think part of the reason people may give Dany the benefit of the doubt is because we only see her actions through her. I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or not that the book where a lot of people, including me, finally got fed up with her is the same book where we have three other POVs — Barristan, Quentyn and Tyrion — in her neck of the woods and in some cases directly interacting with her.

[sennahoj]

I think her POV has really suffered from GRRM not following his original idea to have a severl-year gap in the story to let especially the young characters mature. I am not saying George's decision was wrong, but it has to Dany's disadvantage. She is not supposed to enter the Game of Thrones in Westeros yet (even now). Other things have to happen first and so she's stuck in Meereen. Of course, more interesting things could happen to her, but I guess learning to rule and be a queen (as worthy as that may be) does not make for very exciting reading. She is sitting there as some sort of prize for whoever Westerosi gets to her first to take up her cause (Ironborn, Dornish, Tyrion). And as to that saviour business, in contrast to a civil war between several of the Seven Kingdoms, a Targaryen queen on the Iron Throne whom everyone could love or hate equally would go a long way towards saving Westeros.
But apart from that: She's not the messiah, she's just a naughty girl.

[butterbumps!]

Apple Martini, on 30 April 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

She'll be an antagonist to the Big Mean People who don't immediately fall in line and kiss her ass.

I'm interested to hear Patrick's take- if it means that she is villainous from a character or group of character's point of view, or from the reader's, the distinction being a big difference to me (for example, Margaery is an antagonist to Cersei, at least in Cersei's mind, but the reader, or at least me, believes Marg to be kind of a "good guy").

I realize that this next part is going to be a bit of meta-analysis (and directed at no one).  That said, I personally feel that we've invested so much time in the ins and outs of the NW and the Wall, and Northern history and legends (Bran's trek, the Nights King myth, Gorne and Gendel) for it to make logical sense that the dragons, which haven't developed at all beyond being instruments of destruction, to be the Occam's Razor to everything facing the North.  

It will feel like an extraordinary let-down to me if the answer to ASOIAF is A. Targaryen's always win in the political realm, and B. Dragons trump all in the magical one.   This would feel like an extraordinary let-down to me not because I have invested heavily in Jon, Stannis, Bran, the Starks in particular and other characters generally.  But it's because I would find it disappointing in a series that has largely focused on how the Game of Thrones destroys the lives of the smallfolk, birthright is an idiotic form of government, and that magic is a "sword without a handle."  Ergo, I would find an ending where ruling by birthright despite ability and fire magic's being the "right" one utterly against the implications of everything we've read.

That said, I can't see Dany being even remotely a hero unless she dissolves the kingdom and destroys her dragons.   FWIW, I don't think that Jon will end up polishing the throne either- I have a sneaking suspicion that Jon will discover the real reason (whatever it is) for the Long Night and self-sacrifice to that cause.  While this should go in a separate thread, I've wondered if Jon and Arya might be some recapitulation of Nissa Nissa that might be requisite to restore balance in the world- instead of AA gaining incredible power through the sacrifice, his life must be taken to diffuse that power, or something thereof.