402 replies to this topic

[BabyMeraxes]

Apple Martini, on 30 April 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

See, I can totally agree with this. From Dany's perspective, her cause is just. The interesting thing is, up until ADWD, Dany's perspective was the only one we had of her in real time. Have you noticed that even really reprehensible characters, like Cersei, can seem more sympathetic and likeable in their own POVs? Not that Dany is as bad as Cersei, I'm just using her as an example. As awful as I think Cersei is, it's hard to read her POV and not come away with some measure of empathy. Likewise, I think part of the reason people may give Dany the benefit of the doubt is because we only see her actions through her. I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or not that the book where a lot of people, including me, finally got fed up with her is the same book where we have three other POVs — Barristan, Quentyn and Tyrion — in her neck of the woods and in some cases directly interacting with her.

I'm very interested to see Dany during a Tyrion or Barristan POV. I feel like it's generally agreed that Tyrion will end up advising Dany in some capacity. If Dany is being a true fuck up, surely he will tell her about herself. Although, I think it's saying something that each of these outsider characters decides to aid Dany in some way.

I feel like Dragons was a perfect storm for Dany hate. Her chapters were a massive part of the book, and were generally uneventful, and they came 6 (?) years after Crows which has been criticized for being plodding and lame (I mostly disagree). Add to this that Dany's chapters in Dragons were her challenge/fuck-up chapters, and of course people are going to dislike her. I'm wondering if Winds could win people back to Dany, or if two staunch camps will remain until the end of the series.

[Apple Martini]

BabyMeraxes, on 30 April 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

I'm very interested to see Dany during a Tyrion or Barristan POV. I feel like it's generally agreed that Tyrion will end up advising Dany in some capacity. If Dany is being a true fuck up, surely he will tell her about herself. Although, I think it's saying something that each of these outsider characters decides to aid Dany in some way.

Tyrion can tell Dany that she's a fuck-up, but it doesn't mean she'll listen. She can't take criticism and advice from someone like Jorah, who thinks he loves her, and Barristan, who's a yes man. How is she going to react to Tyrion?

Those "outsider" characters are aiding Dany for their own reasons. Jorah was exiled. Tyrion was framed for murder. Quentyn's aunt was murdered and his father invested a lot in him. Barristan was sent from King's Landing in disgrace. All of them have reasons to "aid" Dany that don't have much if anything to do with a true belief in her cause or her abilities as a ruler.

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I feel like Dragons was a perfect storm for Dany hate. Her chapters were a massive part of the book, and were generally uneventful, and they came 6 (?) years after Crows which has been criticized for being plodding and lame (I mostly disagree). Add to this that Dany's chapters in Dragons were her challenge/fuck-up chapters, and of course people are going to dislike her. I'm wondering if Winds could win people back to Dany, or if two staunch camps will remain until the end of the series.

It's possible. Frankly it would take a lot for me to ever go back to liking her or thinking she's capable of doing anything in Westeros but burning it down. I also wonder if the flip side is true — could something happen in tWoW or aDoS to turn her most ardent supporters against her? You write as if there's only one implied motion: readers start liking Dany or go back to liking her. Do you agree that the reverse is also true?

Edited by Apple Martini, 30 April 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[etu]

I don't mind too much her being an entitled brat. I mean, its not exactly pleasant, but its a perfectly understandable behaviour trait for a slightly traumatised 13 year old girl with no real roots except her royal name and more or less consistent ego-puffing since birth. It can make for good drama, there's a potentially great character arc there, and someday someone's going to get a great "Bitch, Check thyself before thou wrecks thyself" speech out of this.

It's the slowness and boredom of her story line that leaves me cold. Although that's not really her fault. Well, it is, but it isn't. Basically, I wouldn't mind if Dany and all her forces got onto an Ironborn fleet, then Hurricane Deux ex Machina sank the whole bloody lot. Well. I'd feel sorry for Barristan, and Tyrion if he was on it...

[BabyMeraxes]

butterbumps!, on 30 April 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

I'm interested to hear Patrick's take- if it means that she is villainous from a character or group of character's point of view, or from the reader's, the distinction being a big difference to me (for example, Margaery is an antagonist to Cersei, at least in Cersei's mind, but the reader, or at least me, believes Marg to be kind of a "good guy").

I realize that this next part is going to be a bit of meta-analysis (and directed at no one).  That said, I personally feel that we've invested so much time in the ins and outs of the NW and the Wall, and Northern history and legends (Bran's trek, the Nights King myth, Gorne and Gendel) for it to make logical sense that the dragons, which haven't developed at all beyond being instruments of destruction, to be the Occam's Razor to everything facing the North.  

It will feel like an extraordinary let-down to me if the answer to ASOIAF is A. Targaryen's always win in the political realm, and B. Dragons trump all in the magical one.   This would feel like an extraordinary let-down to me not because I have invested heavily in Jon, Stannis, Bran, the Starks in particular and other characters generally.  But it's because I would find it disappointing in a series that has largely focused on how the Game of Thrones destroys the lives of the smallfolk, birthright is an idiotic form of government, and that magic is a "sword without a handle."  Ergo, I would find an ending where ruling by birthright despite ability and fire magic's being the "right" one utterly against the implications of everything we've read.

That said, I can't see Dany being even remotely a hero unless she dissolves the kingdom and destroys her dragons.   FWIW, I don't think that Jon will end up polishing the throne either- I have a sneaking suspicion that Jon will discover the real reason (whatever it is) for the Long Night and self-sacrifice to that cause.  While this should go in a separate thread, I've wondered if Jon and Arya might be some recapitulation of Nissa Nissa that might be requisite to restore balance in the world- instead of AA gaining incredible power through the sacrifice, his life must be taken to diffuse that power, or something thereof.

I disagree, I feel like, at least in Kings, Dany's dragons were developed as companions, some kind of cross between a pet and a child, and I still tend to recognize them as that. In fact, the worst part about the Astapor Betrayal was that Dany had the audacity to consider selling one of them. Not that I think it will ever come to this, but it's hard to expect a mother to kill her babies.

I agree with much of what you said, and never for one moment did I ever think Dany would sit the Iron Throne. One my first read though I thought it would be Jon, but now I'm not so sure. For me, magic in this series is like that old, forgotten culture that's been set aside by modernity and complacency, a necessary part of the life cycle that's clawing its way back to the surface. Nobody puts sorcery in the corner. So, at the end of the day, if magic doesn't have some place in the future of Westeros, that would be a problem for me. But, a problem I could live with.

For the record, I've always thought Dany was going to be Nissa Nissa to Jon's AA.

[butterbumps!]

I've tried to pinpoint things in Dany's plot that would win me to her cause, and an abridged version would be this:

1.  At the end of Dance, she steels herself to become a conquerer, without justification or strategy.  For many fans of Dany, this is a good, positive thing.   As I do not respect "conquering" as it's own end, I'd need her to revise this new world view.  I, personally, don't feel that her family lost the Throne without good cause, so I do not believe that there is anything that would make me sympathize with her aim to conquer Westeros (and as she has said, when you abandon something you lose claim to it).  However, if she has an epiphany, realizes how awful life is for the smallfolk and how dangerous primogeniture titles are and decides to begin a Constitutional Monarchy, using her force only on those who stand against these goals, this would go a long way toward winning me over.  Even if we don't go this far, I would be much more amenable to Dany's ruling if she had a different epiphany, realized that even though dragons do not sow, a leader must, and began a course of better governance, this would also go far in my opinion.   If she has another epiphany, realizes that the Great Grass Sea is her true home, and abandons her conquest of the Throne in favor of living out her days over there, this would also go pretty far for me.

2.  None of these epiphanies are handed to her on a platter by Tyrion.  I like Tyrion a lot, but I feel it would cheapen Dany's arc if she reaches none of those conclusions on her own.  And to be honest, Tyrion's big investment with Dany is A. because he's obsessed with dragons and wants to ride one himself, and B. he wants to destroy Cersei.   I'd imagine he'd go along with a lot of Dany's current *ahem* "policy," because it's in line with a few goals he's personally invested in.

[BabyMeraxes]

Apple Martini, on 30 April 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Tyrion can tell Dany that she's a fuck-up, but it doesn't mean she'll listen. She can't take criticism and advice from someone like Jorah, who thinks he loves her, and Barristan, who's a yes man. How is she going to react to Tyrion?

Those "outsider" characters are aiding Dany for their own reasons. Jorah was exiled. Tyrion was framed for murder. Quentyn's aunt was murdered and his father invested a lot in him. Barristan was sent from King's Landing in disgrace. All of them have reasons to "aid" Dany that don't have much if anything to do with a true belief in her cause or her abilities as a ruler.



It's possible. Frankly it would take a lot for me to ever go back to liking her or thinking she's capable of doing anything in Westeros but burning it down. I also wonder if the flip side is true — could something happen in tWoW or aDoS to turn her most ardent supporters against her? You write as if there's only one implied motion: readers start liking Dany or go back to liking her. Do you agree that the reverse is also true?

I'm pumped to see how Tyrion is going to deal with Dany, because I think she might just listen. Tyrion is a pretty decent manipulator, so I think there's a good chance he'll get her to see his point. Those characters you mention, with the exception of Quentyn, have seriously dedicated themselves to Dany, and could walk away at any moment, but chose to support her. Could their motives for doing so be flawed? In Jorah's case, absolutely. But, I believe that both Jorah and Barristan would give their lives for Dany, and I think that says a lot. What it doesn't say, however, is that Dany would make a good Queen.

I think the reverse is certainly true. If Dany's foolishness kills one of those dragons, and she doesn't mourn properly? Trust that I will never forgive her. Especially if it's Rhaegal.

[butterbumps!]

Hmm.   When I say that the dragons aren't "developed," I mean the way the NW and the Wall are so rich with history and subtlety.  Of Dragons, we know that they are the ancient instruments of conquest and slavery, but they seem very bland to me in comparison with the much more mysterious and complicated "Hinge of the World" that is the Wall, or what Gorne and Gendel were really up to with those tunnels.

I also admit (maybe unfairly) to being a little dismissive of the Dragon's role as pets and children.   Her relationship with them in this capacity is a bit unbelievable to me, and I can't help think of TuPac's ode to his gun (Me and My Girlfriend).  If the dragons are intended to be sympathetic characters, then I admit I hadn't read them that way- to me, they seem to have 2 moods: destructive and more destructive.  I don't see the dragons as being personified or sympathetic in a believable way, but more as forces of nature representing fire.   I feel it is akin to a tidal wave, had Dany "birthed" that, and referring to her love of this tidal wave as something worthy of human emotion.

Regarding Dany and Jon in a Nissa Nissa scenario:  I know a lot of people are rooting for this, but the thought is superlatively nauseating to me, if for no other reason (of which I have many), because it would be hard to believe in a deep, deep love between them emerging only in these last two books.     Though cloaked in enigma and subtlety, the "sacrifice" scenario I'm most leaning toward (mostly from a literary perspective rather than what I want to see happen) is that Arya -aka DARK SISTER- might need to take Jon's life.  When you think of the AA myth, and the "on switch" of all the magic we've seen, it appears that magic falls into human hands via forceful sacrifice of someone else (blood magic).  It would be great literary symmetry (plus, somewhat unexpected) for AAR to require a willing self-sacrifice to quell the flow of magic from falling into human hands.

This goes into other threads, but for me, I've read a lot of implication into the "rightness" of magic being something humans ought to use.  All the magic we've seen derives in some part from blood and or fire, and has been used to enslave, oppress, self-aggrandize or bring back the dead.  I am inclined to believe that by the end of the series magic will continue to exist, but that it will no longer be a weapon for human use.  If AA was the on switch, I'd like to hope that AAR flips it off.   While my inclination is to think Jon will ask Arya to stick him with the pointy end (because I think there's something we've yet to see regarding "dark sister"- both Bloodraven's sword and a term used for Arya), I can see Dany making a similar sacrifice, where she and her dragons self immolate or something to that effect.

[Apple Martini]

BabyMeraxes, on 30 April 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

I'm pumped to see how Tyrion is going to deal with Dany, because I think she might just listen. Tyrion is a pretty decent manipulator, so I think there's a good chance he'll get her to see his point. Those characters you mention, with the exception of Quentyn, have seriously dedicated themselves to Dany, and could walk away at any moment, but chose to support her. Could their motives for doing so be flawed? In Jorah's case, absolutely. But, I believe that both Jorah and Barristan would give their lives for Dany, and I think that says a lot. What it doesn't say, however, is that Dany would make a good Queen.

They don't walk away because that's all they have. Look what happened to Jorah when she dismissed him. But make no mistake, if Joffrey hadn't sacked Barristan, he'd still be in King's Landing and if Jorah hadn't sold slaves, he'd still be ruling on Bear Island. Even if they knew about Dany's existence.

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I think the reverse is certainly true. If Dany's foolishness kills one of those dragons, and she doesn't mourn properly? Trust that I will never forgive her. Especially if it's Rhaegal.

OK, good. Because I get the impression there are some people on here who would continue rooting for her even if she does something unspeakably evil. I'd argue that she's already committed evil — like through torturing people — but still, they love her.

Edited by Apple Martini, 30 April 2012 - 12:23 PM.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

Apple Martini, on 30 April 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

OK, good. Because I get the impression there are some people on here who would continue rooting for her even if she does something unspeakably evil. I'd argue that she's already committed evil — like through torturing people — but still, they love her.

Yes, i find it funny when Dany lovers defend her while, for instance, trashing Melisandre because she burns people alive, i mean what? Mirri Maz Duur anyone? fire breathing dragons anyone?* or Cersei, for giving that Lady to Qyburn, while, you know, wineseller's daughters...

*about the dragons, at best they're just freaky dangerous animals, at worst monsters. People rooting for her to get to westeros and burn her way to the Throne and all that stuff... i don't get it. I keep thinking about the description of the 'field of fire' battle during the conquest by Aegon I; four thousand men burned to death from the sky in a single day. It's the equivalent of some napalm bombardment or something. Also, the innocent child burned and devoured by the black dragon come to mind. So no, not pets, companions or whatever, just monsters of mass destruction, no other use for them beyond that.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

Double post, sorry.

Edited by Blue-eyed Onion, 30 April 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[BabyMeraxes]

@butterbumps!

I got a pug puppy right before I started reading the series, so that dragon love might be something personal I'm brining into the story, but if so, I'm glad I did. Also, birthing magic is not something only Dany accomplished in the series. I feel like her sorcerybabies are a creature for a reason, and that for at least the second book, you're meant to see them as more than a weapon, maybe an extension of Dany's self? Drogon acts instinctively to save her from the Warlocks, so there's deff some kind of bond there. Melisandre's shadow? That's a weapon, pure and simple, and there's no way anyone could empathize with that.

That's a very interesting theory on magic, mostly because I believe magic and humanity exist in a symbiotic relationship. If it were up to me, sorcery would sit the Iron Throne at the end of the series, but I understand why some people might not like that.

Edited by BabyMeraxes, 30 April 2012 - 12:48 PM.

[BabyMeraxes]

@Blue-eyed Onion

I'm guessing you're also not a fan of the dire wolves? Nymeria's had her fair share of human flesh. Also, sorry I'm not sorry. I love those dragons.

[Apple Martini]

Blue-eyed Onion, on 30 April 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Yes, i find it funny when Dany lovers defend her while, for instance, trashing Melisandre because she burns people alive, i mean what? Mirri Maz Duur anyone? fire breathing dragons anyone?* or Cersei, for giving that Lady to Qyburn, while, you know, wineseller's daughters...

This ties into what I said about perspective being important, and how I think a lot of the free passes that Dany gets from some readers are due to seeing what she does through her perspective exclusively. We don't get a POV from Melisandre until the fifth book, and it's just the one chapter.

People, not incorrectly, call Melisandre evil and wrong and immoral for burning people alive. So why is it OK or justified when Dany does it? Because Dany, from her perspective, thinks it's justified? I'm sure that Melisandre thinks she's burning people for the greater good, too, or for otherwise sound reasons.

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I'm guessing you're also not a fan of the dire wolves? Nymeria's had her fair share of human flesh. Also, sorry I'm not sorry. I love those dragons.

No one is ever going to sack a city or roast 4,000 men alive with a direwolf.

Edited by Apple Martini, 30 April 2012 - 01:01 PM.

[butterbumps!]

@ BabyMerax

That's funny about the pug! (and as a gratuitous aside, pugs seem to be the mortal enemy of my own (she-wolf) dog, who always like to bully her for some reason).

More on topic though, I want to say that I completely respect your thoughts on the love Dany feels for her dragons.  I think that they are presented to us as a kind of grey area, in that they are animalistic representations- living, breathing things.   I by no means find the dragons to be evil, but that is because I see them as fundamentally more like tidal waves and ice storms, though I see your perspective.  

Given my own perspective, I am leaning toward the hope that Dany comes to the realization that she is not their "mother" or that they are worthy recipients of her love, but more that she comes to understand them as machines or weapons. (And just to clarify, I'm not negating that she "birthed" them, but that she must distance herself from this perspective in order to more forward or use them wisely).  I think as it stands now, she fetishizes them to a degree that I think she fails to see the big picture of what they really are, as entities and to her own purposes.  And I think this would be a hard realization for her if that's what she must do, because I concede that they are animalistic, and so more easy to attach emotion to than natural phenomena.

Your point about the shadow babies is a good one, and one I had in mind in determining my own thoughts about how the human use of magic is ultimately a bad thing.  It seems that all human magic has a blood price, and this thought makes me incredibly leery of whether humans ought to be in possession of that kind of power at the end of all this.  And the humans in wielding this magic have never done anything "good" with it, but we see them abusing it for personal gain.  

Part of why I favor the idea that humans should not hold magic at the end of the series is because I inherently like the humanist implication of all the problems within the story having both human causes and solutions.  It may not be the case that this is where things are going, but for my own view, I believe this would have the most poignancy, and tie all of the aspects of the plot into a reasonable denouement.

As a caveat, I realize that this does not speak to thoughts on warging or greenseeing, or most of the Northern magic.  I think the CotF may have been the one race "perfect" enough to hold magic from the beginning, and that the magic associated with them may have trickled down to humans through inter-marriage.  I'm trying to say that unlike the other forms of magic, it does not appear so far that these abilities are gained via blood magic, although I won't dismiss the possibility that such a thing needed to happen thousands of years ago in order to "wake" even this kind of magic.

[Apple Martini]

I'm actually torn in how I see the dragons. I think they're probably somewhere in between the direwolves — emotionally bonded companions — and the shadowbabies — destructive forces, from which no good can come. It makes sense that Dany sees them as her children, but at the end of the day, I think they fall more into the latter category than the former. Seeing what the Valyrians did with them, I'm not entirely convinced that their complete extinction would be a bad thing.

Edited by Apple Martini, 11 May 2012 - 12:34 AM.

[Faint]

I really need to start one of my own threads in this same vein but I have a sinking feeling I'd be the only one posting. It would be titled: "When did Bran Stark become your least favorite character?" And the answer, of course, is after he was shoved off that tower.

Edited by Faint, 10 May 2012 - 11:57 PM.

[LordofWinter]

I've never understood why people who like a particular character find it necessary to find their way into threads SPECIFICALLY geared towards fans of the series who don't like that character. I'm not sure If they think that they can somehow change the minds and opinions of other people? Or if they believe that commenting on how little you like a fictional character on these boards is sone new form of cyber-bullying? But regardless it seems like a gigantic waste of time. Just an opinion

[Faint]

I just wish it was restricted to a single thread. There are roughly a dozen or so active "I Hate Dany!" threads. Why couldn't it just be quarantined down to one?

[StarkWard]

I don't remember the moment specifically, but when I realized that all she was doing was asserting her right to rule because it was her birthright, always saying "I will take what is mine", and constantly thinking of, and fucking Daario, it just ended.

[kwvapor]

Maester Nikolas, on 12 March 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

I really do like Dany- it's just that her ability seems to be in the moment, making decisions that decide life and death. A player of the Game of Thrones she is not- she doesn't have the education or the patience to do so. Just bear in mind that if her decisions in the day-to-day ruling of Meereen that she was literally raised to be married- and beyond languages probably wasn't taught much of anything. She expressed a desire to learn more- but the day-to-day ruling is making it difficult to even make the effort. However, when it comes down to it she is passionate about trying to be a good ruler, passionate about her people, and extremely protective of those she cares about. In the fighting pits, with Drogon threatening fiery death, her initial reaction was 'They're trying to kill him', her second reaction 'He's going to kill everyone if I don't do something'. And then jumps into a pit with a dragon and fends him off with a whip. Emotional ties that Drogon might have which increase her safety or not- that takes a lot of guts.

When Dany jumps into the pit with Drogon I really didn't put so much thought into it like you have.

When I was reading it, I thought--maybe--the Prince of Dorne burning himself up was meant for us to compare and contrast Dany to the Prince.

Anyway, Dany moved up in rank for me after reading what you wrote.  She's a pawn thrown into the position of a player.