76 replies to this topic

[unBloodraven]

GRRM scraped the 5 year time jump for aDwD and based upon the two release chapters for tWoW (Theon and Arianne) it doesn't seems like there will be a jump, but that could just be the opening few Chapters before it occurs...

I don't see how Arya and Sam's characters will have had the time to undergo their training if their plot lines are not dropped for a few years and then picked up again. I can see one Chapter on Sam and Arya adapting to their new training environments in tWoW but more than that and it doesn't seems like they won't have much to offer to the story. Thoughts?

[AlexKerscher]

The time wrap has been scrapped out because those 5 years will be written, with plots and subplots, into four more books, which will cover Ibben and the Summer Isles. It is known.

[Free Northman]

I have the same concern. Particularly Sam, who's training only starts in Dance.

Anyway, I reckon some rewriting of his initial plot will be required, to compensate for this.

[coldchicken]

i agree,it would have been nice to see these characters age a bit more, Rickon seems irrelevant seeing as hows he's like 3 or 4
it will be interesting to see what happens to arya and sam as their training would take years to complete, therefore there must be some kind of event that would end their training prematurely and make their stories relevant again.
I just want to see Arya reunited with her wolf and tear some throats out with her bare hands
maybe sam will discover something about the others requiring him to return to castle black? that seems the most likely to me.
as for Arya returning to westeros i can't think of a good reason, maybe for an assassination? (seems unlikely though if she's not done her training) or maybe Stannis' lackey (whats his name) on his way to get an army will find her? or tyrion? any better thoughts?

[Bolivar]

Arya's definitely coming back to Westeros for an assassination, and it's probably to get a Stark or someone else we don't want to see go. How long do you think her training will take, though? it seems like she's learned pretty fast already. The shapeshifting may take some time, but I think she's got a lot of it down pat at this point.

As far as Sam being a maester, I could see him running off to warn Jon after discovering something. It's already Winter in the books and the real threat the realm is coming. He's going to be needed.

So I don't know if a Time Warp is necessary, and it's definitely not coming in TWoW, given the chapters that have been released so far. Maybe there'll be an intermission, but I do remember the ASoS prologue saying sometimes chapters can be taking place years later.

[EzXen]

I always figured Maesters forge a initial chain and then are sent off kinda like graduating .
Seems that a the basic of a maester's jobs are reading,writing,math, first aid .
With that i dont see it taking sam long to forge  the basics of a maesters chain and become somthing like a rank 1 measter then forge more links later on in life after he finds somthing about the whites

as for Arya she could a) need more time to be a better assassin or same as sam, becomes first rank of a faceless one and head to westeros for her first assingment.

[Talleyrand]

Its just a jump to the left

[ManyFacedOne]

unBloodraven, on 12 March 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

I don't see how Arya and Sam's characters will have had the time to undergo their training if their plot lines are not dropped for a few years and then picked up again. I can see one Chapter on Sam and Arya adapting to their new training environments in tWoW but more than that and it doesn't seems like they won't have much to offer to the story. Thoughts?

Sam has a ton to offer the story. He's right in the midst of the citadel with Jaqen H'ghar and all those scheming maesters. Plus he's probably going to be learning some cool magic. Sam's arc is one I'll be lookin' forward to the most next book.

Free Northman, on 14 March 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

I have the same concern. Particularly Sam, who's training only starts in Dance.

Anyway, I reckon some rewriting of his initial plot will be required, to compensate for this.

Why? He'll advance faster than others most likely but nothing is going to need drastic changing.

Bolivar, on 14 March 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Arya's definitely coming back to Westeros for an assassination, and it's probably to get a Stark or someone else we don't want to see go. How long do you think her training will take, though? it seems like she's learned pretty fast already. The shapeshifting may take some time, but I think she's got a lot of it down pat at this point.

I expect Arya will be through with her training by the end of the next book. Who knows, maybe she'll even be through sooner and on her way back to Westeros.

[Arkash]

I agree, Sam's arc will be amazing !

[unBloodraven]

Within Oldtown yes Sam will have alot to do, and with Pate/Jaqen it will be interesting; As far as tying Sam's story in with the recent developments at CB doesn't seem trackable.

I am intersted to learn about Oldtown and the Maesters and hopefully Sam will be able to provide insight into that mysterious world we've only glimsed bits of until now through the various other Maesters. Oldtown seems isolated as far as it's location goes but they seem to have a good handle on the goings on of Westeros.

Also with one going to Dany if he makes it to her in Meeren maybe we'll find out the truth behind alot of the 'lost mysteries' of Old Valyaria.

[Arkash]

Especially since we're talking about Marwyn who seems, with Euron Greyjoy, one of the men with the greatest knowledge of the world !

[Ser Ilyn's Tongue]

I imagine Sam and Arya's training will just be accelerated a bit and they will develop quicker than their peers.  This may risk looking a bit too convenient, but if it's done well (like I'm sure it will, trusting in George as I do) I don't think it will matter so long as their chapters are good and develop the story.

Sam's Oldtown chapters I expect will provide us with a whole lot of cool info and Arya's have unpredictable potential.

[Browncoat]

I see no reason why Arya can't become an able killer with just a little bit more training.  The Faceless could make good use of an 11 year old assassin, no doubt.  She should be on her way to Westeros again before Book 6 is over.

I can see where the Sam thing is problematic, since maesters train for year and years, and it's all about the absorption of knowledge.  But Martin only set Sam on this path in Book 4, right?  There weren't any direct allusions to Sam becoming a maester prior to that, just minor foreshadowings like his love of books and maps.  And I think it's fair to say that Sam is more of a secondary character whose destiny is probably not part of the original story outline Martin dreamt up back in the early 90s like Jon's or Tyrion's is.  When Martin abandoned the five year gap idea, he would also have crafted a plan to have Sam do what needs doing for the plot in a shorter period of time prior to setting him on course for Oldtown.  Who knows?  Maybe Marwyn can just cast a spell to knowledge Sam up.

That said, Martin could employ a time gap at some point in or after Book 6.  We know that the 5 year gap after Book 3 was abandoned because there was no reason why Dorne wouldn't respond immediately to Oberyn's death.  But winter has begun, and if it is half as harsh as I expect it to be, it'd be a perfectly good reason for characters to hunker down wherever they are to ride it out for a period of time, conveniently aging/training in the process.

Edited by Browncoat, 14 March 2012 - 10:31 PM.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

This thread scares me because it raises the question of the need for more books to bring the story to a satisfactory conclusion.  I have nightmares about a Terry Goodkind or Robert Jordan Type scenario that requires 10+ books, years more of waiting and a story that could outlive the author.

There is really no need for Rickon to age and become important.  I can see Jon or Lord Manderly acting as a Lord Protector for him and teaching him all that he needs to know.  However, I need a fully developed Arya and Sam to be satisfied.  I dream of 16 year old Arya who has grown up to be as beautiful as Lyanna and Sansa, but is more badass than either of them could ever hope to be.  I need Sam to be as wise and knowledgeable as Maester Aemon and Arch Maester Marwyn (in order to help Jon and the nights watch defeat the Others).

I know it will likely not happen this way, but I think it would be one hell of a series finale.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

Bolivar, on 14 March 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Arya's definitely coming back to Westeros for an assassination, and it's probably to get a Stark

The Faceless Men know she is a Stark, and do not allow killing people they know personally.

[Lummel]

unBloodraven, on 12 March 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

I don't see how Arya and Sam's characters will have had the time to undergo their training if their plot lines are not dropped for a few years and then picked up again. I can see one Chapter on Sam and Arya adapting to their new training environments in tWoW but more than that and it doesn't seems like they won't have much to offer to the story. Thoughts?

I presume that completing their training is not going to be relevant to the story but where they will be, what they can do and learn even as apprentices will be.

In story terms there could well be less than two years left, ADWD seems to take place within about seven or eight months I would guess, so the story would probably have to be a lot longer for Sam to become a Maester or Arya an assassin.

Edited by Lummel, 16 March 2012 - 10:03 AM.

[Francis Buck]

The thing is, we're assuming that Sam has to actually become a maester for his story to work, which we really have no good reason to assume. It seems to me that he just needs to be at the Citadel to learn important information. That is the primary reason he's there, in my opinion. There's no reason to assume he simply couldn't leave the CItadel once he figures out whatever he needs to figure out, especially if that information is vital to the Wall and the Watch.

As for Arya, I don't see her needing all that much more training to be an at least somewhat capable assassin. She can already use a sword, she's already agile and stealthy, and she just acquired her first new face (and is about to get a second one). Not to mention that she clearly has no issues with killing people.

Edited by Francis Buck, 16 March 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[Fire Eater]

Lothbrok, on 14 March 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Its just a jump to the left

And then a step to the right

I also agree that Sam is going to learn something important at the Citadel like Jaqen is up to, and what book could he be trying to steal, Sam could read that book. Plus, you Sam growing into a man since ASoS, he kills an Other, he never abandons Gilly in hostile territory in their trip to theWall and then while on his voyage he manages to beat up Dareon and lose his virginity. In TWoW, you'll probably finally see him face his father for a Luke-Vader type family meeting.

[Jory]

Bolivar, on 14 March 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Arya's definitely coming back to Westeros for an assassination, and it's probably to get a Stark or someone else we don't want to see go. How long do you think her training will take, though? it seems like she's learned pretty fast already. The shapeshifting may take some time, but I think she's got a lot of it down pat at this point

Faceless Men can't kill people they know. Why do you think everyone on the ship was telling Arya their names like a hundred times when she was sailing across the Narrow Sea?

[miguel sanchez]

Jory, on 17 March 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

Faceless Men can't kill people they know. Why do you think everyone on the ship was telling Arya their names like a hundred times when she was sailing across the Narrow Sea?

so then the question is, who is an important character that Arya does NOT know? Probably somebody we as a reader don't want killed, you just know George will make it tragic somehow, and then do something unpredictable.

Thinking about it, Arya isn't going to become a big-time faceless man anytime soon, and won't be killing anybody in westeros of severe importance, but I guess if she's sent to kill somebody it will be somebody that we know, who's death would serve a purpose. One guess is that it could be somebody in the golden company, or anybody in the service of Aegon.
I think that whatever happens with Ayra, she won't be seeing the north again until she encounters Nymeria. So if she's sent to westeros to kill somebody, it'll be someone in the south.