640 replies to this topic

[Ser Lepus]

A lot of people see the presence of the kingsguards at the Tower of Joy as the proof that R+L=J is true, but I think that´s not true.

I believe we can be sure that the KG were at the Tower of Joy because Rhaegar told them to do so; the problem is why did they stayed there once Rhaegar and Aerys were dead, instead of joining Darry, Vyserys and Daenerys? Why did they fight Ned and company?.

Most people are quick to accept the theory that they were there to protect Aergon´s heir (baby Jon), but I think there is a more simple theory: They were there for revenge.

Rhaegar was dead, Aegon was dead,Rhaenys was dead, Aerys was dead, and the two surviving children of Aerys had ran away to Braavos, and were in no immediate need of protectors (if the Sealord wanted to offer them refuge, they would be alright, and if the latter decided to hand them to Robert, there was nothing they coud do)...there was no reason to run to King´s Landing once the Targayren weren´t there....but they had a very good reason to stay at the Tower of Joy; they knew that either Ned or Robert, and maybe both, would go there to retrieve Lyanna, giving them the opportunity to prepare an ambush against the usurpers and avenge the dead of their liege.

Your thougths?

[Thunderfist]

I don´t really buy it tbh. There were 3 of them, and for all they knew, Ned Stark might arrive with 500 men thus giving them virtually zero opportunity of avenging anything

[Dragonfish]

Well, first of all, Viserys and Daenerys were on Dragonstone, not in Braavos.

Second of all, I don't think your theory really works, because the Kingsguard specifically single out their vow as the reason for why they are not running. I don't recall "avenge the king" being one of the Kingsguard vows, but I do recall "protect the King" being their primary vow.

[Ser Lepus]

Thunderfist, on 12 March 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

I don´t really buy it tbh. There were 3 of them, and for all they knew, Ned Stark might arrive with 500 men thus giving them virtually zero opportunity of avenging anything

As I said, "ambush"; assassinations of public figures or even country rulers are difficult only if you want to escape alive; if you don´t care your life, you have a great opportunity of success despite whatever measures are taken to protect them. The original assassins of the Old Man of The Mountain managed to kill many princes and governors despite crazy security measures.

Dragonfish, on 12 March 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

Well, first of all, Viserys and Daenerys were on Dragonstone, not in Braavos.

Even if they were still at Dragonstone, the rebel forces would probably reach there before the kingsguards, and they couldn´t break their lines to enter the castle.

Edited by Ser Lepus, 12 March 2012 - 05:40 PM.

[dtones520]

Their comments in Ned's dream suggest otherwise.  They swore some sort of vow. Their place should have been with their king, which if R+L=J is true, explains why they are there. If not, what vow did they swear that was greater than the vow they took to protect the king? Viserys was still alive, why did they not go to him? I don't think they had left Dragonstone based on Ned's dream, so your saying that they were in Braavos is a bit off.

Plus, I'm not sure Rhaegar alone could order the Kingsguard to go somewhere over his father. Their place was with the king they swore to guard or where he ordered them to be. If there was no one left but Viserys, their place was with him. Not seeking revenge. If Viserys and Danerys were dead I could see them seeking revenge, but that doesn't make sense given their true vows.

[Jerritus]

Ser Lepus, on 12 March 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

As I said, "ambush"; assassinations of public figures or even country rulers are difficult only if you want to escape alive; if you don´t care your life, you have a great opportunity of success despite whatever measures are taken to protect them. The original assassins of the Old Man of The Mountain managed to kill many princes and governors despite crazy security measures.


Even if they were still at Dragonstone, the rebel forces would probably reach there before the kingsguards, and they couldn´t break their lines to enter the castle.

If they were to ambush them, then I don't see why they would have a nice little chat with the Ned before actually attacking them.

And ambushing isn't very honorable anyway, and Ned considers them among the most honorable people he has ever met.


So yeah, I don't buy this either.

[Dragonfish]

Ser Lepus, on 12 March 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

Even if they were still at Dragonstone, the rebel forces would probably reach there before the kingsguards, and they couldn´t break their lines to enter the castle.

Given that Stannis didn't take Dragonstone until sometime after Daenerys was born (which itself was nine months after the Sack), we know that this is false. But even if it were true, it is still the Kingsguard's job to at least attempt to reach Viserys. The fact that they might fail or die in the process should not enter into their decision to uphold their vow, at least if they're as honorable as Ned says they are.

[DirtyRobes]

Everything about the way the fight went down screamed honorable so I dont buy that they wanted revenge + Im not sure how long exactly but it still would have taken Ned Some time to go from the Trident - Kings Landing -TOJ which would take atleast weeks(possible months) in Westeros. Thats more than enough time for the kingsguard, who by all evidence(Jamie excluded) Only Protect the King, to make it to Dragonstone.
Also would you have a chat with someone your about to ambush?
I think certain theories just fit Too well not to come to fruition like R+L=J & YG=BF being my favorites. I think the Ned we meet at the start of a GoT has been totally shaped by the events of the ToJ, from his honor, his relationships(espec Robert B )to pushing Jon to the wall.

Edited by DirtyRobes, 13 March 2012 - 06:53 AM.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

dtones520, on 12 March 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Plus, I'm not sure Rhaegar alone could order the Kingsguard to go somewhere over his father. Their place was with the king they swore to guard or where he ordered them to be. If there was no one left but Viserys, their place was with him. Not seeking revenge. If Viserys and Danerys were dead I could see them seeking revenge, but that doesn't make sense given their true vows.

What if Dayne, Whent and Hightower were personally loyal to Rhaegar? If Rhaegar was indeed plotting a Coup d'etat like some people here believe, wouldn't he need some members of the Kingsgaurd for the sake of legitimacy? It could be argued that a vow sworn to a madman is no longer valid.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Arch-MaesterPhilip, on 13 March 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

What if Dayne, Whent and Hightower were personally loyal to Rhaegar? If Rhaegar was indeed plotting a Coup d'etat like some people here believe, wouldn't he need some members of the Kingsgaurd for the sake of legitimacy? It could be argued that a vow sworn to a madman is no longer valid.

Except Ser Gerold Hightower said that if they were in King's Landing, Jaime would be dead, specifically calling him a "false brother". That doesn't sound like someone who's planning to overthrow him.

[Bastard of the White Knife]

Dragonfish, on 12 March 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

Well, first of all, Viserys and Daenerys were on Dragonstone, not in Braavos.

Second of all, I don't think your theory really works, because the Kingsguard specifically single out their vow as the reason for why they are not running. I don't recall "avenge the king" being one of the Kingsguard vows, but I do recall "protect the King" being their primary vow.

I agree.  Also, "obey the King" is most certainly a vow.  Ned would view them as honorable for keeping their vow, so if Areys sent them to get baby Jon, they were honoring their vow of obedience.

[Old Man Aegon]

Revenge? They dont seem very mad at Ned, but instead mad at Jaime (Which is understandable). But you say they were there for revenge.. Why werent they at the trident with Rhaegar if the only thing keeping them at the tower of joy was revenge that they had no need for at that time? or at kings landing?

Surely they must have been needed elsewhere had they not been assigned a very important duty like "Guard my child" or something like that.

[Garion Snow]

Quote

Strictly speaking, it was purely the king's choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, incles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards

Maybe Aerys just ordered them to serve Rhaegar and instead of taking them to war he ordered them to protect his prisoner (Lyanna) and kill her if someone comes to take her.

[Bran the Deciduous]

Funny, this is why I thought the KG were there when I first read GoT and didn't know about R + L = J.

I think the dialogue between Ned and the KG tends to support the view they were there owing to the 'vow' and because they were the KG. No hint in the scene, as Ned recalls it, that they were out for revenge (on anybody save Jaime perhaps).

Edited by Bran the Cute, 24 September 2012 - 09:35 AM.

[jblair]

If Aerys had known where Lyanna was, I have zero doubt she would have been used against the Rebellion as leverage...either through torture or execution.

[redviper9]

A revenge mission to me would imply that Hightower, Dayne, and Whent were actively trying to seek out and destroy Robert, Ned, Jon Arryn, Hoster, Stannis, Tywin, Jaime, and everyone else who had taken up arms against the Targaryens and helped bring down the dynasty.  Casually waiting at the Tower of Joy and then having a relatively civil conversation with Ned do not seem like the actions of individuals hell-bent on revenge.  And, as has already been noted, the only person they really seem mad at is Jaime, for obvious reasons.

Personally, I find the idea that Aerys "gave" these three to Rhaegar -- and that Rhaegar then ordered them to defend Lyanna and a possible heir to the throne -- quite plausible.  We've actually gotten a pretty good glimpse into Aerys's thoughts during the rebellion, and he never seemed concerned that these three KG weren't in the thick of things; we know that he wanted to keep Jaime close to use against Tywin, and we know that he was convinced that Lewyn Martell had somehow double-crossed Rhaegar at the Trident, but there's never a mention of him worrying that this group -- which included the Lord Commander -- wasn't at King's Landing or the Trident or accompanying Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone.

Also, as is noted by many characters in the books, this Kingsguard is cut from a different cloth than the one that serves Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen (the notable exception being Barristan Selmy).  They take their vow to protect the king and the royal family seriously, and once given an order, they will carry it out...or die trying.

[Middlejon Umber]

All the dialogue in the ToJ scene just screams that they were there to protect the heir to the kingdom. Just the fact that they never call Viserys their new liege speaks volumes IMO.

[The Dragon has three heads]

^yep.

[Buried Treasure]

Middlejon Umber, on 24 September 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

All the dialogue in the ToJ scene just screams that they were there to protect the heir to the kingdom. Just the fact that they never call Viserys their new liege speaks volumes IMO.

Considering they never speak about either child, not so much. Or perhaps they are just realists enough to realise that, although they are loyal to their vows to the Targs to the death, the rest of the realm is now sworn to the other side and that calling the Targaryen heir (whoever that is) any kind of fancy title is pointless. Or maybe they just don't see the point in discussing how Viserys is their king because he is hundreds of miles away and they are never going to serve him because they are going to be killed in a few minutes time.

[The Lord of NightSong]

I can't believe that you guys haven't mention the most important piece of information we have from the Tower of Joy!! The promise that Ned made to Lyanna is the decisive fact that means that was actually something there. This promise could have been to protect Jon, if R+L=J was true. In any case, we'll probably be 100% sure when Howland Reed is introduced by Martin in the next book.