401 replies to this topic

[DanteGabriel]

Quote

Said it already - God, country, family. Like I also said, I do believe these are Obama's primary values.

Okay, starting with Raidne's quote -- I asked what "mainstream" American values are, and this is Raidne's response.

I also asked how Barack Obama so varies from that (incredibly vague) specification that he is considered by so many Republicans to be a dangerous Other.  Can someone enlighten me?  I promise not to get any of my angry liberal froth on you.

Edited by DanteGabriel, 12 March 2012 - 07:33 PM.

[Jon Sprunk]

When I talk to my repub friends/family, it's like Raidne said. They complain about all the spending in Washington DC. Yeah, they also snicker about the secret Muslim stuff and call him a socialist/communist, but the spending seems to be the big problem with them.

At which point, I invariably point out that repub presidents haven't exactly been deficit hawks the past 40 years...

[Sci-2]

Well, it seems like the GOP wants to frame it like this:

God == homophobia, sex is bad
Country == US always right no matter what, best in everything unless it unimportant stuff like Math and Science
Family == homophobia, transphobia

That said, liberals/Dems do that thing where being against illegal immigration or pro-English means you're racist, being pro-life automatically means you want women to have less rights across the board (barefoot and pregnant), and being for the troops or having reservations of any kind on any issue of race/religion/etc means you'd gladly join the KKK...unless you are a minority, in which case you're a sell out.

[DanteGabriel]

Jon Sprunk, on 12 March 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

When I talk to my repub friends/family, it's like Raidne said. They complain about all the spending in Washington DC. Yeah, they also snicker about the secret Muslim stuff and call him a socialist/communist, but the spending seems to be the big problem with them.

At which point, I invariably point out that repub presidents haven't exactly been deficit hawks the past 40 years...

Yeah, that falls apart in the face of two unfunded wars (which were also concealed in the budget) and ridiculous tax breaks for the very people who needed them least.  Again, all I see is a bunch of people who didn't seem to have any problem with Bush the Lesser's spending now shitting themselves when they see the bills Obama is forced to pay.

And for the inevitable chorus of "well, my conservative friends and I didn't approve of Bush's spending" -- yeah, that's like the bit about how the number of people who claimed to be at Woodstock is many times the number that were actually there.

[Brienne the Beauty]

Jon Sprunk, on 12 March 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

At which point, I invariably point out that repub presidents haven't exactly been deficit hawks the past 40 years...

Republicans spend, spend, spend and talk about how thrifty they are. Democrats admit they are going to spend and then act comparatively thrifty.

Take a look at this graph:

http://en.wikipedia...._Debt_Trend.svg

[awesome possum]

This should be US Politics: Wild Generalizations Edition

[DanteGabriel]

And on Obama's otherness:

He is the son of an immigrant who was born to a middle-class life and rose to the highest heights through intelligence, hard work, and determination.  He is educated, cosmopolitan, hard-working, and capable of great nuance.  He is a goddamn avatar of the American dream and should be held up as an example of what you can achieve.  Why is he so vilified?

Watching the way he interacts with his family, listening to him speak, the little details I know about his life before he went into national politics -- I feel like I have more in common with him than any other President that has ever come before.  Why am I less American than anyone else?  Why is the guy I sympathize with more than some old rich white plutocrat less American?

Edited by DanteGabriel, 12 March 2012 - 08:05 PM.

[Sixshells]

DanteGabriel, on 12 March 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

And on Obama's otherness:

He is the son of an immigrant who was born to a middle-class life and rose to the highest heights through intelligence, hard work, and determination.  He is educated, cosmopolitan, and capable of great nuance.  He is a goddamn avatar of the American dream and should be held up as an example of what you can achieve.  Why is he so vilified?

If I want to be mean I'll say that's because the "American Dream" is a sham, a mythos exploited by powerful people to put the oppressed in sleep hoping they, too, can have a part of that dream. He is vilified because it's not supposed to happen "for real".

[Ormond]

Well, I think it's more that it can't be "real" if the guy is also a moderate to liberal Democrat.

What mystifies me more than the people who question Obama's Christianity are the right wing commentators who actually accuse him of being a sociopath. I've heard that claim more than once, and it just seems completely off the wall to me. I think there are some people on the Far Right who are so authoritarian that the only way they can explain someone obviously intelligent and well-spoken being in favor of things like abortion or national health care is to believe they are some sort of manipulative Machiavellian who doesn't really believe what they say.

I don't think there's any good evidence Obama has sociopathic tendencies. From what I've seen, he's even less narcissitic than the average politician. He certainly seems a lot less narcissistic than either Bill Clinton or Newt Gingrich.

[awesome possum]

The right-wing media machine solely informs a good chunk of our country.  That's how they get the vast majority of their information.  And most of it is misinformation.  They're the people who believe that because Hannity, O'Reilly, formerly Beck, etc. are on the screen with a banner that says "News" they must be news.  So any of the whackjobs and conspiracy nuts and strategists who appear as guests on the shows who pass off rumors as fact and lies as truth are - in the eyes of those schmucks - doing so under the banner of news.

Yes, Republicans and even Fox News members will admit those shows are not news.  But they don't do it during their programs, and since those people don't read or watch anything remotely newsy outside of the safe, familiar, comfortable confines of the various Fox sets, they don't know that.

It's not a huge number, those Fox viewers, maybe 4 or 5 million.  But that's 4 or 5 million people who care about politics enough to watch a cable news show regularly - thus care enough to go out and vote regularly - and who are grossly misinformed because of it.  That's a healthy voting bloc, especially during midterms.  In 2010 87,940,148 total people voted and the overall ratio was 46 to 53 Dem to Reps.  Or about 5 million votes.

[Sci-2]

I don't know -> Seems like you could find liberals who are just as brainwashed, just as sure they are correct sans evidence or genuine knowledge?

[Ser Robin Hill]

I don't think liberal/conservative is at the center of the issue.  There is a specific economic issue at the center.  For decades, the financial wealth of the country has been drifting from the poor and middle class, to the wealthy.  The king makers want to to move us toward a plutocracy or, more accurately, a plutarchy.  Want to see all the Republicans foam at the mouth?  Say these words.  "End the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy"  Obama has aggressively pursued that objective and the puppet masters of the Republican Party, really don't like that. .

[tzanth]

DanteGabriel, on 12 March 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

And on Obama's otherness:

He is the son of an immigrant who was born to a middle-class life and rose to the highest heights through intelligence, hard work, and determination.  He is educated, cosmopolitan, hard-working, and capable of great nuance.  He is a goddamn avatar of the American dream and should be held up as an example of what you can achieve.  Why is he so vilified?

Watching the way he interacts with his family, listening to him speak, the little details I know about his life before he went into national politics -- I feel like I have more in common with him than any other President that has ever come before.  Why am I less American than anyone else?  Why is the guy I sympathize with more than some old rich white plutocrat less American?

Right on, DG.  Obama is probably the most "American" president of the past century.

[Shryke]

Jon Sprunk, on 12 March 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

When I talk to my repub friends/family, it's like Raidne said. They complain about all the spending in Washington DC. Yeah, they also snicker about the secret Muslim stuff and call him a socialist/communist, but the spending seems to be the big problem with them.

At which point, I invariably point out that repub presidents haven't exactly been deficit hawks the past 40 years...

Fuck, if people are gonna keep brining this up, let's talk about it.

"Obama has gone spend crazy" is false. Completely utterly false.

Let's go with data: http://krugman.blogs...its-and-virtue/

Quote

Let’s look at the growth of real government spending — all levels, federal, state and local — before and after the crisis. All data are from FRED. I present spending with and without unemployment benefits, to give you the picture once you exclude the biggest piece of safety-net spending

Quote

So even with unemployment benefits included, spending grew no faster after 2007, as deficits soared, than before. Take out UI, and there was a noticeable slowdown, which would be even bigger if we also took out other safety-net programs such as food stamps.


Yes, both before and after government spending rose faster than the economy’s long-term rate of growth, mainly because of health-care costs. But that growth difference is a very small part of the deficit story.

So what we’re basically looking at is a collapse of revenue. That’s a policy disaster, not a moral failure.

I ultra-emphasized the important parts.

Among a few people there is, perhaps, a perceived "spending spree" going on, but it's not true. And if it's perceived now, well, remember that of all the candidates for 2012, Obama's budget is the most fiscally conservative: http://krugman.blogs...phonies-update/
Which shouldn't surprise anyone who's been paying any attention to the last 4 or so presidents and how they spend money and which party they come from.

So yeah, anyone who claims this is about spending is either uninformed or a liar.


For more comparisons of this recovery to previous ones (notably Conservative Jesus/Reagan), here's some more good stuff:
http://krugman.blogs...american-style/
http://krugman.blogs...very-continued/
http://krugman.blogs...bama-austerity/
http://krugman.blogs...two-recoveries/

Quote

At this point in the Reagan recovery government spending had risen 11.6 percent; this time around it’s actually down by 2.6 percent. So if we had followed the Reagan track, spending would be almost 15 percent higher.

Edited by Shryke, 12 March 2012 - 11:24 PM.

[Triskele]

There's something from Game Change (film; not book) that I think applies to the current race.

Supposedly McCain wanted to tag Lieberman for VP.  He thought it would be a great show of the old "Country First" meme, and that it would help bring the country together.  Some of his adviser's really fought him on this because of something like "The base is already concerned that you're not a real conservative, so doing this will just intensify that belief.  We can't lose the base."  I think that analysis is probably right.  Picking Joementum would have been a disaster (partly because of alienating the base and partly because Democrats hate the guy now).

If you accept what I just said, try to compare it to Romney's situation right now.  There's this theme out there that he needs to pander really hard to the right in order to win the GOP nomination and that upon having done so, he will then pivot to the center.  Are we sure about this?  I don't doubt that he would somewhat pivot, but he can't really go that far, can he?

On the one hand, the right gets the message out.  Fox folks and talk radioers were all over McCain when he won the nomination, but in a matter of months it was all about beating Obama. especially once Palin was chosen.  Romney will feel heavily pressured to tab a "real conservative" as his VP.  Right now he's more or less running on the platform of GWB minus any compassion.  It's very hawkish, very America!  Fuck Yeah!, very "our problems are that taxes and regulations are too high!" despite the fact that taxes are historically low.  WTF is his platform going to transform into during the general election?  Attack Obama-Care?  He can try, but he has a little bitsy problem with that.  Attack Dodd-Frank?  Nice fucking try as Mitt Romney, scion of Wall Street wealth.  I guess my overall point is that Romney has to run on something resembling his current one, and his current one is straight up fucknuttery that he wouldn't believe in were he not running for the nomination of this party.

I think that Obama has a couple of cards up his sleeve.  One is that the whole "Change" meme is still actually pretty strong once campaign season comes.

*saunters up to the podium*

"You know...a lot of folks have been acting like there hasn't been enough change since my administration took office, so let's talk about that for a minute.  You want to know what change looks like?  Change is passing a bill that will extend health care coverage to 30 million Americans that otherwise wouldn't have it.  Change is pulling out of the unnecessary war in Iraq.  Change is reforming the financial system so that big banks cannot play poker with our economy, and so that everyday consumers have someone looking out for them.  Change is ending the DODT policy so that our servicemen and women that only want to serve their country can do so openly and without fear."

Keep in mind that this is Barack fucking Obama you're dealing with.  He is like Saruman.  You let him speak, and you've already lost.  The only difference is that he wants to take out Sauron rather than pander to him.

The second card that I think they may be holding close to the proverbial vest is to go back to slamming the GOP as just another reiteration of GWB which is what they are (except w/ no compassion).

Unless there's an unexpected calamity or a new financial crisis, Romney is going to have to do one Hell of a pivot in the general to avoid being the return of GWB on steroids, and if his pander is bad enough, it will at least blunt the enthusiasm on the right which could be all it takes in a close election.

[kalbear]

Really, all Romney has to do is say "hello, my name is Mitt Romney. I'm a rich white man, and most importantly I'm not Barack Obama. Thank you for your vote'.

And about half the country will vote for him.

Barack Obama is disliked because of the massive debt his administration has accrued (and it isn't as much on a percentage basis but is still 4 trillion dollars), his domestic programs and entitlements and his general democratic party ness. He's vilified because he's not a rich white guy. Even Clinton wasn't as hated as Obama.

I guess the good news is that Romney is not that likely to change all that much.

[Triskele]

ĶӓḷƁҿӑȑ, on 12 March 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

Really, all Romney has to do is say "hello, my name is Mitt Romney. I'm a rich white man, and most importantly I'm not Barack Obama. Thank you for your vote'.

And about half the country will vote for him.

Barack Obama is disliked because of the massive debt his administration has accrued (and it isn't as much on a percentage basis but is still 4 trillion dollars), his domestic programs and entitlements and his general democratic party ness. He's vilified because he's not a rich white guy. Even Clinton wasn't as hated as Obama.

I guess the good news is that Romney is not that likely to change all that much.

Have you seen Romney's unfavorables?

http://andrewsulliva...lity-check.html

I realize that some of this is political noise...a lot of Republicans that hate Obama will somehow find that they favor Romney should he be the nominee, but this is not normal.

ETA:  And I disagree that the debt is anything more than a periphery issue.  He is disliked because he is Barack Obama, half-black President from the Democratic party who crushed Palin and her Christianist followers.  That debt would stop angering that vast majority of these people the instant one of their own won the White House.  It's all identity politics.

Edited by The Sinister Kid, 12 March 2012 - 11:14 PM.

[TerraPrime]

DanteGabriel, on 12 March 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Why is he so vilified?

He be black, son.

Yeah, I already expect the chorus of "but no, GOPs are not racists. They dislike him for his policies."

To which I said, some do, and some don't. The rejection of Obama was palpably racial from the beginning, once he won the nominations. The GOP fundraisers that sold boxes of pancake mix featuring a racialized face of Obama? Check. Depiction of Obama in garbs of African tribes? Check. Do all Republicans dislike him because he's black? No, not all. But some do, and those who do are, I suspect, the least likely to be swayed by evidence of his alignment to middle-of-the-road American ideals.

But yes, I, too, fail to understand how someone rising from a single-parent middle class household to do well for himself is NOT seen as a posterchild for the American way.

But I guess if Obama plays up his humble beginning, especially to contrast Romney's background, he'd be seen as indulging in class warfare.

[Triskele]

Typical Woman, on 12 March 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

He be black, son.

Yeah, I already expect the chorus of "but no, GOPs are not racists. They dislike him for his policies."

To which I said, some do, and some don't. The rejection of Obama was palpably racial from the beginning, once he won the nominations. The GOP fundraisers that sold boxes of pancake mix featuring a racialized face of Obama? Check. Depiction of Obama in garbs of African tribes? Check. Do all Republicans dislike him because he's black? No, not all. But some do, and those who do are, I suspect, the least likely to be swayed by evidence of his alignment to middle-of-the-road American ideals.

But yes, I, too, fail to understand how someone rising from a single-parent middle class household to do well for himself is NOT seen as a posterchild for the American way.

But I guess if Obama plays up his humble beginning, especially to contrast Romney's background, he'd be seen as indulging in class warfare.

This is exactly why Jeb Bush (Jeb Bush!) is making public statements doubting what he sees in this party.

I disliked GWB for so many reasons, but I never felt that he was a racist.  But his party's base contains a plurality (within that party) of people for whom politics is at the very least very much identity-driven, so race must essentially be a big part of it.

Some people were excited about Obama as the "post-racial candidate."  He sure proved that someone non-white can win.  But America's racist rural hordes sure proved that they weren't ready for it.

[Shryke]

ĶӓḷƁҿӑȑ, on 12 March 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

Really, all Romney has to do is say "hello, my name is Mitt Romney. I'm a rich white man, and most importantly I'm not Barack Obama. Thank you for your vote'.

And about half the country will vote for him.

Barack Obama is disliked because of the massive debt his administration has accrued (and it isn't as much on a percentage basis but is still 4 trillion dollars), his domestic programs and entitlements and his general democratic party ness. He's vilified because he's not a rich white guy. Even Clinton wasn't as hated as Obama.

As Triskele points out, Romney's unfavorables are EXTREMELY high.

As Kerry showed recently, being "Not the Other Guy" isn't enough. That doesn't get people off their asses and in to the polling booths. (although it works far better on Right-wingers then Left-wingers)

Quote

I guess the good news is that Romney is not that likely to change all that much.

You can't seriously believe this. If nothing else, his administration would be a repeat of GWB with it's raping of the federal bureaucracy and stacking of appointments (and that shit is important) with conservative hacks. SCOTUS, the various agencies that are damn important, all of it.