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[brashcandy]

ASOS – Tyrion III
Summary
The small council is meeting to discuss matters of state. The new members on the council are Kevan Lannister, Paxter Redwyne of the Arbor, Mathis Rowan of Goldengrove and Mace Tyrell of Highgarden. There’s also a new High Septon and Grand Maester Pycelle has been reinstated by Tywin Lannister.

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Too many strange faces, Tyrion thought, too many new players. The game changed while I lay rotting in my bed, and no one will tell me the rules.

Varys gives some reports on the fighting between Robb’s men and the Lannisters and Kevan informs them that Balon Greyjoy is seeking to make an alliance with the crown. If the Lannisters accept the alliance, they would have to recognize Greyjoy as the King of the Iron Isles and grant him the lands north of the Neck. The talk turns to what should be done concerning another holdout from crown, Lysa Arryn. Paxter and Mace are of the opinion that Lysa will cause no trouble and should be left alone, but Tyrion remembers how he was treated in the Eyrie and advocates for vengeance:

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“She did throw me in a cell and put me on trial for my life,” he pointed out, with a certain amount of rancor. “Nor has she returned to King’s Landing to swear fealty to Joff, as she was commanded. My lords, grant me the men, and I will sort out Lysa Arryn.” He could think of nothing he would enjoy more, except perhaps strangling Cersei. Sometimes he still dreamed of the Eyrie’s sky cells, and woke drenched in sweat.

Tyrion’s hopes are dashed, however, when his father states that “Lord Petyr may hold the key to the key to the Eyrie.” Littlefinger agrees, stating crassly:

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“Oh I do,” said Littlefinger, “I have it right here between my legs.” There was mischief in his grey-green eyes. “My lords, with your leave, I propose to travel to the Vale and there woo and win Lady Lysa Arryn. Once I am her consort, I shall deliver you the Vale of Arryn without a drop of blood being spilled.”

Some doubts are expressed by Lord Rowan and Cersei, but Littlefinger touts his suitability for the task by reminding them that he is now Lord of Harrenhal, and reassures them that he can control Lysa’s son, Robert Arryn, and make sure that the boy grows up as Joffrey’s most loyal subject. Tyrion realises that all of this has already been discussed before and that it’s a done deal. Still, he objects to the plan by mentioning LF’s job as Master of coin. It is then that Tywin reveals he wants Tyrion to take over that duty. Littlefinger is given permission to head to the Eyrie and plans on leaving the next day.

After this, Tywin advocates that the crown not trouble itself with making an alliance with Balon Greyjoy. Tyrion remembers his father busy writing letters, and wonders what he has in the works that makes him so confident they can ignore the kraken’s request. Discussion of the wedding arrangements follows, with the news that Doran Martell is planning on his way to KL with 300 Dornishmen to attend the wedding. Mace Tyrell is unhappy about this, but soon has reason to be pleased when Tywin awards Highgarden with the lands and castles of Lord Alester Florent, and his son Garlan is given Bridgewater Keep, along with its lands and incomes. Tyrion notes that Garlan is now transformed into a great Lord.

Varys next mentions that there have been reports of three headed dragons in Qarth, but this is quickly dismissed as mere fantasy. When the question of what to do with the gold cloak deserters comes up, Varys recommends that they be sent to the Wall to deal with some of the troubling news coming from that region, but Lord Tywin commands that their knees be broken as a lesson to others thinking of doing the same. Remembering the concerns of Lord Mormont, Tyrion suggests a compromise, but his words are not heeded.

The meeting concludes, and only the Lannisters remain to have a private meeting. Tyrion immediately complains about his appointment as Master of coin and warns his father about trusting Littlefinger. After a brief argument between him and Cersei, Kevan Lannister reveals about LF

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Only yesterday he brought us word of a Tyrell plot to spirit Sansa Stark off to Highgarden for a ‘visit,’ and there marry her to Lord Mace’s eldest son, Willas.”

Tyrion is intrigued that it was Littlefinger who brought word, and not Varys, but Cersei is simply shocked, stating:

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“Sansa is my hostage. She goes nowhere without my leave.”

Lord Tywin, asserting that he will not have the rose and the direwolf in bed together, reveals his plan to thwart the Tyrells by marrying Cersei off to Willas. Cersei is aghast at the proposal, but Kevan and Tywin maintain that it will be the best thing to stop the rumours about the incest that Stannis has been spreading. Tywin tells her:

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Willas is heir to Highgarden, and by all reports a mild and courtly young man, fond of reading books and looking at the stars. He has a passion for breeding animals as well, and owns the finest hounds, hawks, and horses in the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion is gleeful about this idea for Cersei and notes the control his father has over Cersei even though she is queen. After Cersei storms from the room, Tywin turns to Tyrion and tells him that a wife is what he needs to get over his habit of whoring. Tyrion, although outwardly dismissive of the idea, thinks to himself:

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A wife might be the very thing he needed. If she brought him lands and a keep, it would give him a place in the world apart from Joffrey’s court … and away from Cersei and their father.

He tells his father that he knows it is Sansa he is planning to wed him to, but goes on to insist that she is only a child. Tywin replies:

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Your sister swears she’s flowered. If so, she is a woman fit to be wed. You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as a husband.

Kevan weighs in with a reminder that the man who is married to Sansa can claim Winterfell in her name, and then he and Tywin discuss Lancel and other Lannister relatives as possible options for Sansa. We read:

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Tyrion let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, he knew. Sansa Stark, he mused. Soft-spoken sweet-smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces. He felt as though he was back on the bridge of boats, the decks shifting beneath his feet.

Tywin proceeds to tell Tyrion of all the high-born women he had tried to arrange a marriage with for him, but to no avail.

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If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some little lordling who’d gladly part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock. Lady Tanda has offered Lollys…”
Tyrion gave a shudder of dismay. “I’d sooner cut it off and feed it to the goats.”
“Then open your eyes. The Stark girl is young, nubile, tractable, of the highest birth, and still a maid. She is not uncomely. Why would you hesitate?
Why indeed? “A quirk of mine. Strange to say, I would rather a wife who wants me in her bed.”
“If you think your whores want you in their bed, you are an even greater fool than I suspected.”

Tyrion asks his father why he hasn’t proposed Balon’s daughter as a marriage option, but Tywin makes known that he is expecting the Greyjoys to outlast their welcome in the North and that Tyrion returning home with Ned Stark’s grandson would ensure him the goodwill of the Northern people. He reiterates that Tyrion will never have Casterly Rock, but that he can have Winterfell.

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Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill.

At this point Tyrion accepts, but mentions Robb Stark as a possible obstacle in the plan. Tywin informs him that Robb has broken his promise to the Freys and has instead married a Westerling. Tyrion is suspicious that his father doesn’t seem more perturbed about this betrayal by the Westerlings. The chapter ends with Tywin promising:

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You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon.”

ASOS – Sansa III

Summary
It is the day that Sansa’s new gown is to be ready for her to wear and her serving girls have carefully attended to her preparation, along with Cersei’s bedmaid, who has trimmed her nails and done her hair, and even brought scent for her to wear.

Sansa chose a sharp sweet fragrance with a hint of lemon in it under the smell of flowers. The maid dabbed some on her finger and touched Sansa behind each ear, and under her chin, and then lightly on her nipples.

Cersei arrives with the seamstress and Sansa’s notes that the gown is quite mature:

And it was a woman’s gown, not a little girl’s, there was no doubt about that. The bodice was slashed in front almost to her belly, the deep vee covered over with a panel of ornate Myrish lace in dove-grey. The skirts were long and full, the waist so tight that Sansa had to hold her breath as they laced her into it. They brought her new shoes as well, slippers of soft grey doeskin that hugged her feet like lovers.

Sansa is ecstatic about her appearance and thinks that Willas must love her when he sees her and that she’ll make sure he forgets about Winterfell. The queen recommends the moonstone gems given to Sansa by Joffrey and declares:

“Yes. The gods have been kind to you, Sansa. You are a lovely girl. It seems almost obscene to squander such sweet innocence on that gargoyle."

Sansa is immediately alarmed and wonders if Cersei could have found out about Willas.

No one knew, but her and Margaery and the Queen of Thorns … oh, and Dontos, but he didn’t count.

When she sees the cloak that Cersei has called for however, she knows that something has gone wrong. It is a maiden’s cloak – the one that a girl wears on her wedding day – and Sansa begins to protest. Cersei tells her:

You are a ward of the crown. The king stands in your father’s place, since your brother is an attainted traitor. That means he has every right to dispose of your hand. You are to marry my brother Tyrion.

Sansa realises the truth of Dontos’ words that people only want her for her claim. Cersei advises that she can cry if she wants to, because if it was her she would be pulling her hair out, but that ultimately Sansa has no say in the matter and that she can choose to come quietly like a lady or be forced to the altar. Sansa tries to run, but is quickly stopped by Cersei’s handmaid. Ser Meryn and Ser Osmund Kettleback are waiting on the outside to escort her down, and when Ser Osmund tells her that wolves are supposed to be brave, she calms herself:

Brave. Sansa took a deep breath. I am a Stark, yes, I can be brave. They were looking at her, the way they had looked at her that day in the yard when Ser Boros Blount had torn her clothes off. It had been the Imp who had saved her that day, the same man who was waiting for her now. He is not so bad as the rest of them, she told herself. “I’ll go.”

Waiting for her is Joffrey and he tells her that he’s her father today and touts his power over her to make her even marry a common pig boy or Ilyn Payne.

Her heart lurched. “Please Your Grace,” she begged. “If you ever loved me even a little bit, don’t make me marry your-”

Tyrion appears at this moment and apologizes for not having been able to tell her of the plans before now. He tells her that she can say whether she would prefer him or his cousin Lancel, the latter being better looking and closer to her age. But Sansa thinks:

I don’t want any Lannister, she wanted to say. I want Willas, I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge, and sons named Eddard and Bran and Rickon. But then she remembered what Dontos had told her in the godswood. Tyrell or Lannister, it makes no matter, it’s not me they want, only my claim.

She tells Tyrion that she will do her duty as the king commands and they proceed inside the sept. She notices that none of the Tyrells are there. Miserable throughout the entire ceremony, she wonders that no one can see she is crying, but surmises that they probably don’t care. When it comes time for the cloak exchanges, Sansa decides not to bend down in order to make it easier for Tyrion to put the Lannister cloak around her:

No one had thought to bring a stool, however, and Tyrion stood a foot shorter than his bride. As he moved behind her Sansa felt a sharp tug on her skirt. He wants me to kneel, she realized, blushing. She was mortified. It was not supposed to be this way. She had dreamed of her wedding a thousand times, and always she had pictured how her betrothed would stand over her shoulders, and tenderly kiss her cheek as he leaned forward to fasten the clasp.

This memory hardens her resolve and finally Tyrion is made to stand on the back of Dontos to pin the cloak around her, whilst everyone laughs. She notices afterwards that Tyrion is embarrassed and feels ashamed of her behaviour. But when the High Septon pronounces them man and wife, we read:

She had to bite her lip to keep from sobbing.

When they enter the Small Hall for the wedding feast, Sansa spots the Tyrells. Marg gives her a sad look, but Lady Olenna and the cousins don’t even acknowledge her.

My friends, Sansa thought bitterly.

She dreads what will happen during the bedding, something that she once thought was exciting. The dancing begins and Joffrey and Margaery lead the couples on the floor. Sansa is longing to dance despite her unhappiness and when Garlan requests her hand she is grateful. He tells her that his wife is very worried about her, and also of how Willas came to give him his nickname “Garlan the Gallant.” The dance changes partners, and Sansa finds herself with Joffrey. He kisses her, and threatens that he can have her anytime he wants just like Aegon had many whores in the past.

Not surprisingly, Joffrey is the one to suggest the bedding commences, but Tyrion adamantly shuts down such actions by promises to geld his nephew. Tywin agrees that there is no need for a bedding, and Tyrion and Sansa proceed to their room, with Tyrion making rude jests:

“Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle.”

In the bedroom, Sansa is terrified, but asks Tyrion if he wants her to undress or if he’ll do it himself. Telling her to call him Tyrion, he begins to muse on his first marriage to Tysha. Sansa inquires about the girl:

“Lady Tysha.” His mouth twisted. “Of House Silverfist. Their arms have one gold coin and a hundred silver, upon a bloody sheet. Ours was a very short marriage … as befits a very short man, I suppose.”

He learns that Sansa will be 13 when the moon turns, and is astonished at her young age, but still commits to the bedding. Sansa undresses with fear and trepidation:

Gooseprickles covered her arms and legs. She kept her eyes on the floor, too shy to look at him, but when she was done she glanced up and found him staring. There was hunger in his green eye, it seemed to her, and fury in the black. Sansa did not know which scared her more.
“You’re a child,” he said.
She covered her breasts with her hands. “I’ve flowered.”
“A child,” he repeated, “but I want you. Does that frighten you, Sansa?”
“Yes.”

Trying to comfort her, Tyrion tells her that he can be kind to her despite being a Lannister and that with the lights off no worse than any other man; he’s like the Knight of Flowers. Sansa realises just how afraid he is:

He is as frightened as I am, Sansa realized. Perhaps that should have made her feel more kindly towards him, but it did not. All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire. He was looking at her, waiting for her to say something, but all her words had withered. She could only stand there trembling.

Getting into bed after her, Tyrion touches her breast, but realises that Sansa is shivering and shuddering. At this, he removes his hand and promises not to touch her until she is ready for him. When Sansa tries to see some beauty in him, all she can see is his twisted and ugly body, with even his penis appearing disgusting.

It took all the courage that was in her to look in those mismatched eyes and say, “And if I never want you to, my lord?”

Tyrion replies bitterly:

“… that is why the gods made whores for imps like me.”

Edited by brashcandy, 13 March 2012 - 07:38 AM.

[brashcandy]

Analysis

First to speak on the timeline: As Rapsie indicated in a post upthread, the chapters in the story do not necessarily follow a linear progression, and it’s evident that the events of Tyrion III occurred before Sansa II where we see her being fitted for her dress. In this Tyrion chapter, Cersei is shocked by the news that the Tyrells want to steal Sansa away, and would have only started making plans for Sansa’s dress after getting the go-ahead from her father. I posited yesterday that I believed that it was Littlefinger who suggested the Willas/Sansa match to the Tyrells, and I believe this chapter gives a small hint that either this theory is correct, or that it was the Tyrells themselves who told him about the plan. When Kevan mentions it to Cersei and Tyrion, he states:

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“Only yesterday he brought us word of a Tyrell plot to spirit Sansa Stark off to Highgarden for a ‘visit,’ and there to marry her to Lord Mace’s eldest son, Willas.”

The key revelation that points to the info coming from the Tyrells or being hatched by LF himself is the knowledge of the ‘visit’ that would be devised as the cover to get Sansa away from the Lannisters. Now, it’s possible that Sansa could have confided all the plans in Dontos, but my feeling is that she only told him that the Tyrells were planning to marry her off to Willas, and not about the particulars of the plot. Here is what Sansa says about it in the previous chapter:

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When she told Dontos that she was going to Highgarden to marry Willas Tyrell, she thought he would be relieved and pleased for her. Instead he grabbed her arm and said, “You cannot!” in a voice thick with horror as with wine.

The evidence isn’t ironclad, and none of this means that Dontos didn’t indeed report what Sansa told him. It just means that there’s a strong possibility that either the Tyrells told LF themselves, or LF is the one who first recommended such a plot in the first place.

We also see the dangerous underestimation of Littlefinger from the Lannisters. Tyrion is the only one who remains suspicious of Littlefinger’s motives, but Kevan believes that LF won’t pose a threat because of his humble origins:

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“I would sooner have Petyr Baelish ruling the Eyrie than any of Lady Lysa’s other suitors. Yohn Royce, Lyn Corbray, Horton Redfort … these are dangerous men, each in their own way. And proud. Littlefinger may be clever, but he has neither high birth nor skill at arms. The lords of the Vale will never accept such as their liege.”

The innate privilege of the high born prevents them from seeing Littlefinger’s darker machinations, and Tyrion’s musing on the curiosity that it was LF who brought word of the Tyrell plot and not Varys goes unnoticed.

This chapter did a good job of highlighting Tywin’s cunning, his cruelty and his command over his children all at once. The plot to kill Robb Stark is obviously well under way, and Tywin is not perturbed by the Westerlings’ “betrayal” because Sybil is supposedly giving Jeyne copious amounts of moon tea to prevent any pregnancy.

Nothing gets in the way of Tywin winning a war, and his refusal to send the deserters to the NW, but instead to break their knees in order to send a message to others, reveals the absolute coldness behind his decisions. The lives and happiness of his children are not exempt from this calculated approach. He wants Cersei to marry Willas in order to remove the stain of the incest rumours and for Tyrion to marry Sansa in order to prevent the Tyrells from gaining leverage over the Lannisters, and to throw a bone to his son because he refuses to let him have Casterly Rock. However, it would be wrong to view Tyrion’s final capitulation to Tywin’s desires as a reflection of the latter’s complete power and authority. Martin clearly shows in the chapter that the idea of Winterfell and Sansa are appealing to Tyrion, even though it’s the kind of appeal that brings more uncertainty and hesitation than it does joy and anticipation. This explains the “queer chill” that Tyrion gets when thinking of himself as Lord Protector of Winterfell.

Undoubtedly, Tywin’s method of breaking down Tyrion’s resistance in this chapter is brutal. He doesn’t intend to cajole and persuade his son into the match, so much as to shame and disgrace him to agree to it. He does this by first castigating him on his penchant for whores, telling him that if he thinks they want him in their beds, he’s mistaken. Then we see him listing all the Houses that he tried to broker a marriage alliance with, even going so far as to consider the girl Robert had deflowered, but still to receive no takers. The mentioning of Lollys is meant more to alarm Tyrion about his options should he not agree than as a serious proposal, and finally there’s the kicker that he’ll never get Casterly Rock, hope as he might.

What we see, however, is that Tyrion was already seduced by the idea of having a wife and a place to get away from his family. Even before he admits that he knows his father is planning to marry him to Sansa, he thinks:

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A wife might be the very thing he needed. If she brought him lands and a keep, it would give him a place in the world apart from Joffrey’s court … and away from Cersei and their father.

So there’s a genuine part of Tyrion that wants the freedom the marriage can bring him. Of course, he is mindful that Sansa Stark would not want him anywhere near her bed, this being the Sansa who likes pretty things and pretty boys, but overall, Tyrion’s objections to his father never take on the same force and outrage as Cersei’s responses do:

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It came so suddenly that Cersei could only stare for a moment. Then her cheeks reddened as if she had been slapped. “No. Not again. I will not.”

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Three children is quite sufficient. I am Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, not a brood mare! The Queen Regent!”

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She stood. “I will not sit here and listen to this- ”

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“No,” Cersei said from between white lips. “No, no, no.”

Instead, what we have is Tyrion almost appearing to be matching wits with his father – raising objections that he knows Tywin will easily shoot down, assuming that the consideration of Lancel and the twins were for his “benefit,” and then refusing to call Tywin’s bluff on the offer by Lady Tanda, instead responding with the exact revulsion his father was expecting. Tyrion makes the assumption that Cersei will do exactly what his father wants, but even if this is so it’s quite noticeable that only Cersei really fights back against Tywin’s plans.

Added to all this, is the sinister suspicion that Tyrion has of Tywin having some plan to kill Robb Stark. Indeed, Tyrion’s own acceptance of the plan and its success – claiming Winterfell for himself – depends on Robb Stark not having an heir that can contest Tyrion’s claim. When we think back to the promise Tyrion made to Sansa in ACOK, those words now ring hollow. Instead of helping to liberate the girl, he is helping to extend her captivity and intensify her suffering.

Bottom line: Tyrion could have refused Tywin. He could have chosen, no matter the extent of his father’s displeasure, to not be part of a sham marriage to steal a girl’s claim with the very real possibility that it would involve tramping over the graves of her family members, and ignoring the pain that the girl would feel from such a union with the family that murdered hers. Whilst being fully aware that Tywin and Kevan were out to entrap him, Tyrion allows himself to be ensnared by the lure of a pretty wife and an impressive castle. His thoughts on Sansa as “sweet-smelling” and loving songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights are only considered as to how they make him feel, not as a serious objection to why would he make this girl extremely unhappy.


Sansa

This chapter represents the cruel crushing of a Sansa’s hopes and desires in order to further the selfish agenda of the Lannister family. It was evocative of the fairytale Cinderella, where the young girl gets a beautiful dress in the hopes of going to a ball where she’ll meet her Prince, but in Sansa’s case the dress turns into a poisoned gift, designed to increase the Lannister’s control over her, and to deepen her unhappiness. I was really shocked at the extent of the insensitivity shown to Sansa here. To surprise her with the news that she is to marry Tyrion Lannister on the same very day of the wedding was the height of heartlessness, even for a family that has turned this into a fine art like the Lannisters. One minute Sansa is twirling and excited by how beautiful she looks in her dress, and literally the next minute she is being told that she has to marry Tyrion, a man from the House she despises. It’s a moment of true horror for the girl, not made any easier by Cersei’s callous remarks on what she would do in Sansa’s place. Sansa’s innocent dreams of making Willas love her for herself are replaced by the reality of a ruthless power grab, which embitters the young girl, and confirms her worst fears about her romantic future.

What’s ironic about this is that Sansa had already come to terms with accepting a husband that did not fit her image of the ideal suitor. Her unwillingness to marry Tyrion does not mean that she is shallow or that she cannot recognize Tyrion’s essential kindness. We see her recognition of this when she notes that Tyrion was the one who protected her when she was beaten by Ser Boros, and that he’s not as bad as the others in KL. The reason why Sansa cannot accept Tyrion has everything to do with lack of free will, lack of any physical attraction, and most importantly, the fact that he is a Lannister, of the House that she has planned to bring her children up to hate. When it comes to the divide between Sansa and Tyrion, both the personal and the political collide in spectacular fashion to illustrate the reasons why this union was doomed from the start.

This is the second time that Sansa was alone in a bedroom with a man, scared and somewhat helpless about what was going to happen next. With the Hound we saw her getting over her terror and reaching out to him in a moment of compassion and empathy that brought them closer together and left her with lingering doubts/feelings. Her bedroom scene with Tyrion, however, is remarkably different in terms of the outcome. This time, even though Sansa can empathise with his feelings – “he is as frightened as I am” – there is absolutely no compulsion or instinct that she feels to comfort this man. What she feels isn’t compassion or concern, but pity, and Martin refers to it as the death of desire. The best way to describe it would be like feeling sorry for someone, but having absolutely no interest in alleviating their pain. If this scene is meant to parallel the earlier one with the Hound, Martin is sending a clear message about which relationship still has the potential to go somewhere.

Physical attraction, no matter how much we may tout the importance of seeing what is inside someone, is still vital to making a successful relationship. It doesn’t matter if the person isn’t objectively beautiful, but if there is something about them that draws you closer, if there’s chemistry between the two of you that defies what you would have normally gone for, then it can work. We see these elements completely missing in what Sansa feels for Tyrion. He can appreciate her naked body, but she finds his to be overwhelmingly hideous:

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Look at him, Sansa told herself, look at your husband, at all of him, Septa Mordane said all men are beautiful, find his beauty, try. She stared at his stunted legs, the swollen brutish brow, the green eye and the black one, the raw stump of his nose and crooked pink scar, the coarse tangle of black and gold hair that passed for his beard. Even his manhood was ugly, thick and veined, with a bulbous purple head. This is not right, this is not fair, how have I sinned that the gods would do this to me, how?

This is probably not Sansa’s first time seeing a man’s naked body, but it is definitely the first time for her seeing a naked body that is enflamed with desire for her. Should Tyrion have taken off his clothes? No. Should Tyrion have made Sansa take off her clothes? No. Should Tyrion have asked her if she was frightened when he said that he desires her despite her being a child? No. I’m not without sympathy for Tyrion in this scene, but his discomfort could have been avoided by refusing to participate in the marriage and definitely by refusing to go ahead with a bedding. Fondling Sansa’s breast and then deciding to stop when he sensed her terror was definitely taking it too far. When he gets angry because Sansa has put up her courtesy armor, I have to wonder what he expected. She’s a young girl who’s just been forced into marrying you so that you can lay claim to her family’s home and lands, and you expect her to be open and honest with you? At that moment, courtesy was probably all that was keeping Sansa from breaking down completely.

It is remarkable indeed that Sansa managed to get through the entire day without collapsing. Her ability to recollect herself when Ser Osmund reminds her that she’s a wolf really highlighted how her inner strength and courage have grown. She may not be able to warg, but she’s not lacking in the other ‘wolfish’ attributes of her family’s banner. At this moment, her dignity and nobility of character are what she has to rely on even when grown women like Cersei admit that they would be hysterical and panicking. Even though her resolve slips at times throughout the day, she never lets her grief get out of control and consume her.

The refusal to kneel in order for Tyrion to clasp the Lannister cloak on her shoulders has important symbolic implications for Sansa’s arc. So far, she has received two cloaks, both from Sandor Clegane, and in the second incident we see her choosing voluntarily to wrap herself in his discarded cloak. One act seems to imply acceptance, whilst the other signifies flat out rejection. She didn’t refuse to kneel out of malice or in an effort to humiliate Tyrion (we see how badly she feels afterwards), but rather makes a stubborn decision not to submit herself further to Lannister authority and not to yield in the face of the destruction of all her hopes and dreams. This small act might not have prevented the marriage from being performed, but it did show Sansa’s unwillingness to accept Tyrion as a husband, and negates the meaning of this particular cloak exchange.

The Tyrells’ desertion of Sansa when she would have needed their support and kindness most was very telling. I felt the most anger and disappointment at Lady Olenna, who definitely has the age and experience to discern what was behind the shot-gun wedding. Margaery can only manage a sad look, and the cousins ignore her completely. It was a harsh lesson for Sansa to learn concerning the nature of friendship. The Tyrells were willing to entertain and be nice to her when they felt they were gaining something in the bargain, but as soon as their plot dissolved, so did their “affection.” The effort shown by Garlan in trying to cheer her up being the notable exception to the women’s behaviour. It is through Garlan that we learn a bit more about Willas and it does seem as though his kindness and goodwill have not been exaggerated. It’s not hard to imagine therefore that Sansa could have found happiness with him as a husband.


Final thoughts

• I’ve always found it a little strange to fathom that Sansa was in a mood for dancing on this day, and I’d like to hear what others think about it.
  
• Sansa’s observing Cersei working her charm on the other Lords and thinking that she hates her – again seems to be establishing the personal enmity and rivalry between the two women that makes Sansa’s eligibility for the Younger Queen in the prophecy seem more likely and fitting.
  
• I was very annoyed by Tyrion’s lack of consideration for Sansa’s feelings when he makes his crude jokes after Joff suggests the bedding.
  
• Sansa managing to let Tyrion know that she might never want him – It took a lot of nerve to say it and I was proud she made her feelings known from that first night.

Edited by brashcandy, 13 March 2012 - 07:41 AM.

[brashcandy]

Last post before thread closure:

Lyanna Stark:

Excellent work brashcandy!


I think the Tyrion/Sansa bedding scene is one of the psychologically most freaky scenes in the novels. Sansa is completely stripped of everything, both literally and metaphorically. She is still a child, alone, naked and without any power to do anything about it and in essence awaiting only being brutalised by someone belonging to the clan who killed her father. Of course, we know Tyrion is not a monster, and on some level Sansa knows he is not all bad, but the way that scene is portrayed is chilling. That Sansa manages to actually tell Tyrion she will never have him is an amazing show of mental fortitude.

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Added to all this, is the sinister suspicion that Tyrion has of Tywin having some plan to kill Robb Stark. Indeed, Tyrion’s own acceptance of the plan and its success – claiming Winterfell for himself – depends on Robb Stark not having an heir that can contest Tyrion’s claim. When we think back to the promise Tyrion made to Sansa in ACOK, those words now ring hollow. Instead of helping to liberate the girl, he is helping to extend her captivity and intensify her suffering.

I don't think Tyrion really sees Sansa as a person yet. He feels pity for her, but he doesn't have any real feelings of empathy for her. When he tells Joffrey to stop beating her, he is more angry at Joffrey than he is empathising with Sansa (while Sandor Clegane comes off as the opposite: he assumes men are monsters, and his focus in these events is on Sansa, not on Joffrey.) That's not to say Tyrion is a bad person, just that his main focus is elsewhere. He still does more for Sansa than anyone in KL.

That said, poor Tyrion. At this stage he seems to just submit to his father and hope to get away, although at the same time, we still see Tyrion "I want to be loved" Lannister still. I think Sansa's words will stand though: she will never bed Tyrion since I doubt he will force himself on her and she has clearly stated she does not want him.


Re: Tywin/LF

I think this is a very good point. Tywin (and Kevan) underestimates LF since he lacks "hard power", i.e. men, castles, lands, horses etc. I also think they see him as a "Varys light", but the main difference between Varys and LF seems to be that Varys likes being the spider in the web but has no ambitions for outwardly power himself, while LF is clearly after a position of power not just behind the scenes, but where everyone can acknowledge what a great man he is.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, Today, 04:48 AM.

Edited by brashcandy, 13 March 2012 - 07:42 AM.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

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If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some little lordling who’d gladly part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock. Lady Tanda has offered Lollys…”
Tyrion gave a shudder of dismay. “I’d sooner cut it off and feed it to the goats.”
“Then open your eyes. The Stark girl is young, nubile, tractable, of the highest birth, and still a maid. She is not uncomely. Why would you hesitate?
Why indeed? “A quirk of mine. Strange to say, I would rather a wife who wants me in her bed.”
“If you think your whores want you in their bed, you are an even greater fool than I suspected.”

This lowered my opinion of Tyrion immensely with how he cruelly dismissed Lollys.  True, she is not described as being comely and is certainly dim-witted.  She is no more to blame "how she was made" than Tyrion was.  Seems he expects beautiful women to love him and look past his birth yet he can't seem to manage the same in return.  He views Lollys the same way many view him yet he refuses to see the parallels.  We don't know Lollys well enough to say if she truly is dim-witted or just hides behind it the way Sansa does.  Many of the other characters seem to think Sansa is dim-witted.  Tyrion makes no effort to find out. He immediately dismisses over beauty (or lack of)

tie this to how willingly he accepted his marriage and with breaking his oath to free Sansa.  Why?  She is beautiful. Sure the lands and Winterfell are a bonus, no doubt.

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I don't think Tyrion really sees Sansa as a person yet. He feels pity for her, but he doesn't have any real feelings of empathy for her. When he tells Joffrey to stop beating her, he is more angry at Joffrey than he is empathising with Sansa (while Sandor Clegane comes off as the opposite: he assumes men are monsters, and his focus in these events is on Sansa, not on Joffrey.) That's not to say Tyrion is a bad person, just that his main focus is elsewhere. He still does more for Sansa than anyone in KL

and yet another example. If Lollys were in Sansa's place, I doubt he would have been so kind.  He still would have stopped it I am sure but his motives would have been more clear as to the why.

I was so proud of her NOT stooping for the cloak.  She had NO reason to submit to it.  She had no reason to concern herself with Tyrion's comfort when he was clearly casting hers aside by marrying her.   As Lyanna states, it is rather significant how she reacts to Sandor in the bedroom on her bed by expressing compassion and touching him then by hiding behind her armour and refusing Tyrion on their wedding bed.  It gives the impression she would have been more compliant and willing had Sandor been the groom.
The bedroom scene with Tyrion still gives me shudders.

[Elba the Intoner]

Great review and analysis.  We get so much info in these two chapters.  I finally got caught up on my reading last night and here are some of my observations -

First, this time around I caught how Joffrey groped Sansa during the ceremony when he went to take the cloak off her shoulders and grabbed her breast and squeezed it.  I don't know how I missed that the first time around because it is just so disgusting.  Ugh, Joffrey really is vile.

Second we really see Tywin the master planner here.  He was not only behind the red wedding, but was behind the act that caused the break with the Frey's in the first place.  He was working with the Westerlings to get Robb to marry Jeyne.

It also appears that he has a plan for gaining the North and knows that the northerners would never accept Balon Greyjoy or the ironmen as their liege.  However, I do think both Tywin and Tyrion were a little delusional about how the northerners would accept Tyrion and his son by Sansa once they tired of Greyjoy rule.  While they are mostly very perceptive, they clearly do not have an understanding of the nature of the northerners.  Does anyone really think that after everything the Lannisters have done to the Starks, the North would accept a Lannister child as their eventual leige lord just because his mother was Sansa Stark, especially once an event like the red wedding happened when it became pretty obvious that those behind the red wedding massacre (Boltons and Freys) were in cahoots with Tywin Lannister?

Third, I am wondering if the real kraken that has been spotted in the waters is going to come into play into some way.  It is mentioned in the same discussion with the three headed dragon, which we know is Dany and is very significant, but of course this news is dismissed as insignificant nonsense.  Since we the readers know that the three headed dragon is important, I am wondering if the mention of the kraken here is going to be important too or just is meant to show that magic and magical creatures are getting stronger (which again is something the Lannister's dismiss).

Tywin's disdain of Tyrion also causes him to ignore Tyrion's warnings about LF.  It really shows his conceit that anybody beneath them in status cannot be a threat.  I guess this goes back to my earlier comment about whether the North would really accept a Lannister child as their leige.  Of course Tywin thinks that there's no way the North will accept Greyjoy as their leige because the Greyjoys are inferior to him and house Lannister.  It doesn't seem to cross his mind that maybe the Northerners would have trouble accepting a child of Tyrion Lannister just because the child is also Sansa's.

So though Tywin is clearly a brilliant schemer in some ways, he can also be short sighted about certain things as well.

Finally, this whole wedding chapter through Sansa's POV from the very beginning to very end is just heartbreaking.  To think of her going through all of this humiliation and she is not even 13 is just awful.  GRRM really better give her a break soon!

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Elba after reading your post it finally occurred to me (i'm getting old, mind is mush) that almost every direct interaction Sansa has with a man involves unwanted sexual contact.
As you pointed out, Joff gropes her (while also filling her with his sick words), then Tyrion gropes her in the wedding bed....Marillion later and LF (ok he just kisses her)

Although Sandor went to her room, despite his initial intentions, he did not grope her in a sexual way nor did he even kiss her.

and yet he is the one she imagines DID kiss her.

[LordBloodraven]

Hmm, great analysis and review. It's good to reread chapters, there's always something  missed the first time. What did old Nan say about old stories again?

Sansa wanting to dance might just be her way to forget what she has been through. She always liked dancing and after being nearly dragged to the altar to marry a Lannister, dancing could be the best way she found to escape that harsh reality. it could be the same as Jeyne Poole drinking more than reasonable quantity of wine during her marriage with Ramsay. IIRC, she didn't dance willingly with any Lannisters and loathed particularly dancing with Joff. And during the feast, she was no longer stuck with the Lannisters. The Tyrells were there...

I find Cersei's treatment of Sansa particularly mean. This is one of the reasons I dislike her and that I can't pity her for what she suffered in AFFC/ADWD. She seems to be enjoying Sansa's distress, as if she was feeling triumphant. She might see Margaery as a threat to her, but the way she's been with Sansa make me think that she's not completely confident with her. Cersei might be subconsciously afraid of Sansa, of Joff's obsession with Sansa and her blossoming beauty which contrasts with her aging. It's with reason that Sansa sees her as an enemy. She has duped her, destroyed her family and enjoys humiliating her. The way she views Sansa as being "ungrateful" to her is really weird, since I don't see what she should be grateful for. And I can't wait for payback time.

Regarding Tyrion's japes, I think that it wasn't mean to hurt Sansa but to protect her from Joffrey and a possible bedding ceremony. "Come here wife, time to smash your portcullis" was the bone he tossed to the crowd to appease them. After all, he has just threatened to geld the king when the latter was initiating the bedding ceremony and by the same time, shocked the invitees. So, I think it's kind of a lame joke to appease them and excuse himself. Penny attitude, I would say.

Sansa telling Tyrion that she might never want him was great because it showed great courage and dignity and she confronted Tyrion with his contradictions. He had to decide what to do, it's either that he rapes his wife or leave her alone and I think it worked. But she was fortunate that Joff's death created chaos enough for her to leave King's Landing, because I think in the long term, Tyrion might have raped her, or Tywin would have killed Tyrion, and marry her to Martyn Lannister or Daven...

Overall, these two chapters are the most emotional and sets the tone for AFFC. The war is won, but not yet known, and High lords are sharing spoils between themselves and unfortunately, Sansa (Winterfell and the North) was a war spoil.

Edit: Great job again, and thanks for the effort. I'm waiting for other analyses

Edited by LordBloodraven, 13 March 2012 - 10:01 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Christina Ceriddwynn, on 13 March 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

Elba after reading your post it finally occurred to me (i'm getting old, mind is mush) that almost every direct interaction Sansa has with a man involves unwanted sexual contact.
As you pointed out, Joff gropes her (while also filling her with his sick words), then Tyrion gropes her in the wedding bed....Marillion later and LF (ok he just kisses her)

Although Sandor went to her room, despite his initial intentions, he did not grope her in a sexual way nor did he even kiss her.

and yet he is the one she imagines DID kiss her.

And Ser Dontos as well! Him of the slobbery kisses.   Good catch there as well, I hadn't thought of how groped Sansa gets. Ewwwh.

Interestingly, our dear Hound is again the only one who despite being his angry, in-your-face obnoxious self doesn't grope her. Although drawing a sword and a dagger on her is hardly lovely behaviour, he stays well clear of sleaze territory.

Maybe that ties in with why she remembers the unkiss? Because all the other ones have been creepy, sleazy grope-scenarios but that time, for one he actually wanted to take her away with him, and she actually ended up somewhat taking control of the situation at the end herself.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 13 March 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[Elba the Intoner]

Quote from Brashcandy's analysis -

"Nothing gets in the way of Tywin winning a war, and his refusal to send the deserters to the NW, but instead to break their knees in order to send a message to others, reveals the absolute coldness behind his decisions."

Exactly!  And it also is another example of how dismissive he is of very valid threats just because they come from someone or somewhere that he believes beneath him, in this case the wildlings and Mance Rayder.  If he truly wanted to get the North to submit to him eventually, then he should be thinking about helping the Night's Watch to gain favor with the Northerners.  I guess he thought he had the North covered through his agreement with Roose Bolton to put the Bolton's in power in the North.  But it seems short sighted to rely on that alone because if the wildlings were to breach the Wall, then they could eventually be a threat to the Boltons and jeopardize his alliance with them.

I think this chapter shows the parallel between Tywin and Tyrion and the way they act as Hand, much the same way as these last few chapters with Sansa and Cersei have shown their parallels and contrasts as Queen.  Now I know many of you do not like Tyrion here and find his complaints about how his power has been taken away from him to be petulant and whiney, and I am not saying he is perfect, but it is very clear to me that Tyrion is a much better Hand than Tywin in terms of what is better for the realm as a whole.  Tyrion has a much broader view of how different people and even different regions act and relate to each other than Tywin, maybe because of his appearance and the way he has been mistreated his whole life.

I also think that Tyrion's role as an adviser is the crux of his character arc and is the reason in the plot as to why he and Sansa get married.  It's pretty obvious by the title of this thread that many of us following it anyway believe Sansa will become a major player in the game (I know that there are many people out there who don't believe this which is why I say "many", not all).  He also became friendly with Jon (who I believe is not done in this story and will have a major role to play as a leader), and is on his way to meeting Dany (though of course this may not happen but I believe it will). He is being set up to be the top adviser to the eventual power rulers of whatever the realm will look like when all this is said and done.

[the Scorpion Knight]

LordBloodraven, on 13 March 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

Overall, these two chapters are the most emotional and sets the tone for AFFC. The war is won, but not yet known, and High lords are sharing spoils between themselves and unfortunately, Sansa (Winterfell and the North) was a war spoil.

funnily Jaime and Tyrion have the gut feeling that THEY lost the war

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Stannis, despite being dismissed by many, is proving to be the slow, steady winner of the game in that he DID understand the North and went up there to completely change his gameplan and it may have been the smartest move on his part.

He may end up holding the key for Sansa to reclaim the north eventually.

[Elba the Intoner]

Christina Ceriddwynn, on 13 March 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

Stannis, despite being dismissed by many, is proving to be the slow, steady winner of the game in that he DID understand the North and went up there to completely change his gameplan and it may have been the smartest move on his part.

He may end up holding the key for Sansa to reclaim the north eventually.

Yes that is a possibility, especially if his man Davos successfully brings back Rickon to the North.  Sansa would be a great regent actins ruler for Lord Rickon.  Also, Stannis is the one making alliances with the Northerners and he apparently  had been buddy buddy with Jon Arryn before Jon's death.  His relationship with Jon could get the Lords of the Vale, where Sansa is right now, to back him eventually.

I forgot to add Jaime to the list in my last post of future big players with whom Tyrion has a relationship.  I think Jaime is being set up for something big too,and though right now he and Tyrion are estranged, Tyrion does owe Jaime his life.

[childofsummer]

IMO, Sansa wants to dance because she does NOT accept her role as Tyrion's wife.  Sansa Stark enjoys dancing, and just because she has been forcibly married to someone who doesn't dance does not make her shun the dance floor, darn it!  I applauded Garlan for asking her, and when she did, it was almost as big a "Go, Sansa!" moment for me as refusing to kneel.

[Grail King]

@brashcandy

Final thoughts

• I’ve always found it a little strange to fathom that Sansa was in a mood for dancing on this day, and I’d like to hear what others think about it.
  
• Sansa’s observing Cersei working her charm on the other Lords and thinking that she hates her – again seems to be establishing the personal enmity and rivalry between the two women that makes Sansa’s eligibility for the Younger Queen in the prophecy seem more likely and fitting.
  
• I was very annoyed by Tyrion’s lack of consideration for Sansa’s feelings when he makes his crude jokes after Joff suggests the bedding.
  
• Sansa managing to let Tyrion know that she might never want him – It took a lot of nerve to say it and I was proud she made her feelings known from that first night.

I think it's : A) her mind knowing she needs some escape within this hell of hers and, another form of her masking herself to be able to show both faces at the same time which in the future may be how she keeps her enemies from knowing what she is doing (as LF says later make moves that confuse them).

I was also, but I think it was a way to tell his father he didn't like how this plan played out, namely he was being mouthy without realizing he was hurting Sansa.

Everything from refusing to bow for the cloak and refusing to GIVE the kiss, was her way that she can give the Lannisters the FU .

I did find it odd that a Kettleblack reminded her she's a wolf and wolves are brave (LF input ?)

[Grail King]

Christina Ceriddwynn, on 13 March 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

Stannis, despite being dismissed by many, is proving to be the slow, steady winner of the game in that he DID understand the North and went up there to completely change his gameplan and it may have been the smartest move on his part.

He may end up holding the key for Sansa to reclaim the north eventually.

He has a smart Hand.

[Morte]

Thanks for the summary and excellent analysis, Brashcandy!

First thought: I agree that the scene in the Small Council does again point toward LF knowing of the Tyrell-marriage-plot even before Sansa told Dontos.
Also I think that this two chapters do show that Tyrion (and Cersei) was the last to be informed about his marriage; I would say he was a maximum of two weeks ahead of Sansa in knowing that is going on (a maximum, because we don't know how fast they can sew Sansa's gown, if they put everything aside for it - it could well be, that this two chapters are only one week away).

brashcandy, on 13 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

The key revelation that points to the info coming from the Tyrells or being hatched by LF himself is the knowledge of the ‘visit’ that would be devised as the cover to get Sansa away from the Lannisters. Now, it’s possible that Sansa could have confided all the plans in Dontos, but my feeling is that she only told him that the Tyrells were planning to marry her off to Willas, and not about the particulars of the plot.


The evidence isn’t ironclad, and none of this means that Dontos didn’t indeed report what Sansa told him. It just means that there’s a strong possibility that either the Tyrells told LF themselves, or LF is the one who first recommended such a plot in the first place.

I absolutely agree with you here.

brashcandy, on 13 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

We also see the dangerous underestimation of Littlefinger from the Lannisters. Tyrion is the only one who remains suspicious of Littlefinger’s motives, but Kevan believes that LF won’t pose a threat because of his humble origins:

The innate privilege of the high born prevents them from seeing Littlefinger’s darker machinations, and Tyrion’s musing on the curiosity that it was LF who brought word of the Tyrell plot and not Varys goes unnoticed.

And this is the second time we see Tywin underestimating Littlefinger - and the second time ignoring Tyrions complains and warnings about him.

I do agree with Lyanna Stark on this point:

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Re: Tywin/LF

I think this is a very good point. Tywin (and Kevan) underestimates LF since he lacks "hard power", i.e. men, castles, lands, horses etc. I also think they see him as a "Varys light", but the main difference between Varys and LF seems to be that Varys likes being the spider in the web but has no ambitions for outwardly power himself, while LF is clearly after a position of power not just behind the scenes, but where everyone can acknowledge what a great man he is.

brashcandy, on 13 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

Nothing gets in the way of Tywin winning a war, and his refusal to send the deserters to the NW, but instead to break their knees in order to send a message to others, reveals the absolute coldness behind his decisions. The lives and happiness of his children are not exempt from this calculated approach. He wants Cersei to marry Willas in order to remove the stain of the incest rumours and for Tyrion to marry Sansa in order to prevent the Tyrells from gaining leverage over the Lannisters, and to throw a bone to his son because he refuses to let him have Casterly Rock. However, it would be wrong to view Tyrion’s final capitulation to Tywin’s desires as a reflection of the latter’s complete power and authority. Martin clearly shows in the chapter that the idea of Winterfell and Sansa are appealing to Tyrion, even though it’s the kind of appeal that brings more uncertainty and hesitation than it does joy and anticipation. This explains the “queer chill” that Tyrion gets when thinking of himself as Lord Protector of Winterfell.

Undoubtedly, Tywin’s method of breaking down Tyrion’s resistance in this chapter is brutal. He doesn’t intend to cajole and persuade his son into the match, so much as to shame and disgrace him to agree to it. He does this by first castigating him on his penchant for whores, telling him that if he thinks they want him in their beds, he’s mistaken. Then we see him listing all the Houses that he tried to broker a marriage alliance with, even going so far as to consider the girl Robert had deflowered, but still to receive no takers. The mentioning of Lollys is meant more to alarm Tyrion about his options should he not agree than as a serious proposal, and finally there’s the kicker that he’ll never get Casterly Rock, hope as he might.

What we see, however, is that Tyrion was already seduced by the idea of having a wife and a place to get away from his family. Even before he admits that he knows his father is planning to marry him to Sansa, he thinks:

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A wife might be the very thing he needed. If she brought him lands and a keep, it would give him a place in the world apart from Joffrey’s court … and away from Cersei and their father.

So there’s a genuine part of Tyrion that wants the freedom the marriage can bring him. Of course, he is mindful that Sansa Stark would not want him anywhere near her bed, this being the Sansa who likes pretty things and pretty boys, but overall, Tyrion’s objections to his father never take on the same force and outrage as Cersei’s responses do

Very good summery. And I'm sure that Tywin knew how desperatly Tyrion wanted to be as far away as possible and not longer dependent on his family. This is indeed how he gets him to accept: Letting Tyrion believe that he would be able to be free of him, while at the same time planing the RW and Bolton becoming Lord of Winterfell, this way again crushing all his sons dreams.
This way he actually did chain both, Sansa and Tyrion, to KL, with Tyrion without any power to anything.

I do believe that Tywin thought of Tyrion and Sansa as a backup plan (or the ultimate plan, somewhen in 5-10 year - but only if they did produce a heir), but he would have never let Tyrion go north at this stage of the game, as I don't think that Tywin does think of Tyrion as completely loyal.

brashcandy, on 13 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

Bottom line: Tyrion could have refused Tywin. He could have chosen, no matter the extent of his father’s displeasure, to not be part of a sham marriage to steal a girl’s claim with the very real possibility that it would involve tramping over the graves of her family members, and ignoring the pain that the girl would feel from such a union with the family that murdered hers. Whilst being fully aware that Tywin and Kevan were out to entrap him, Tyrion allows himself to be ensnared by the lure of a pretty wife and an impressive castle. His thoughts on Sansa as “sweet-smelling” and loving songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights are only considered as to how they make him feel, not as a serious objection to why would he make this girl extremely unhappy.

He could yes, and it would have painted his character in a much brighter light - but it wouldn't have made a difference for Sansa, as she would have been married to another Lannister. Don't get me wrong: While it may indeed be not the worst choice of a Lannister for Sansa (as Tyrion does not consume the marriage even then his father does insist later - we don't know if others would have refused Tywin, most likely no), Tyrion does not agree to the marriage to protect her (even if one could argue that somewhere inside Tyrion did think about himself not being the worst Lannister Sansa could get), but to protect and save himself. For him this situation can be reduced to: A) Take the girl and her claim and try to get away from your family with better chances, or Refuse the offer, see another marry her and stay with your monster of a father and your sister (who does hate you at least as much as you her). So from Tyrions Point of view, his choices were "try to win" or "lose already".

However, I only do partially agree on him lakeing compassion with Sansa, and will discuss this while including:

brashcandy, on 13 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

This is the second time that Sansa was alone in a bedroom with a man, scared and somewhat helpless about what was going to happen next. With the Hound we saw her getting over her terror and reaching out to him in a moment of compassion and empathy that brought them closer together and left her with lingering doubts/feelings. Her bedroom scene with Tyrion, however, is remarkably different in terms of the outcome. This time, even though Sansa can empathise with his feelings – “he is as frightened as I am” – there is absolutely no compulsion or instinct that she feels to comfort this man. What she feels isn’t compassion or concern, but pity, and Martin refers to it as the death of desire. The best way to describe it would be like feeling sorry for someone, but having absolutely no interest in alleviating their pain. If this scene is meant to parallel the earlier one with the Hound, Martin is sending a clear message about which relationship still has the potential to go somewhere.

They both lake compassion for each other, and while Sansa's is more understandalbe because her situation is much much worse and more clearly horrible, I think that at that stage of the "game", with all that happened between their families and with this horrible marriage, they can't see each other because their own misery. Basically there is a huge gap between them, and they are looking at each other like looking on a car accident on tv: it's horrible, people must be hurt - but they only feel pity, no compassion. They are too far away from each other, too seperated.

Basically this marriage did destroy any possible compassion they could have felt for each other - and that makes this chapters even more depressing.

Of course Sansa is more aware of their situation, with Tyrion still thinking (and lying to himself) that it could get better, if they only talk and learn to trust each other(at least a little) [I think he sees Sansa as some kind of allie, or at least would have liked her to be one]

That's also the reason why:

brashcandy, on 13 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

he gets angry because Sansa has put up her courtesy armor,

because he basically still thinks and hopes that talking and time can make things right. It's quite normal for a very rational person like Tyrion to think that everyone can talk about their feeling and that such a talk could heal wounds.
Of course he is wrong here, but it's the way his brain works and he asumes everybody does work that way. Remember: He isn't very empathic, he is rational and able to see thru lies and tactics, not thru "simple" feelings.

brashcandy, on 13 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

What’s ironic about this is that Sansa had already come to terms with accepting a husband that did not fit her image of the ideal suitor. Her unwillingness to marry Tyrion does not mean that she is shallow or that she cannot recognize Tyrion’s essential kindness. We see her recognition of this when she notes that Tyrion was the one who protected her when she was beaten by Ser Boros, and that he’s not as bad as the others in KL. The reason why Sansa cannot accept Tyrion has everything to do with lack of free will, lack of any physical attraction, and most importantly, the fact that he is a Lannister, of the House that she has planned to bring her children up to hate. When it comes to the divide between Sansa and Tyrion, both the personal and the political collide in spectacular fashion to illustrate the reasons why this union was doomed from the start.

And this is so much more heartbreaking, as by this moment, Sansa would indeed be able to love someone like Tyrion, to look past the body and see the person. But with all what happened (including the marriage) it is never possible.

Of course Tyrion doesn't know it, but to the reader it is clear that he is married to one of the few women who would be able to learn to love him for himself - but that this one is actually not for him to have.

Lyanna Stark said it already and I agree:

Quote

That said, poor Tyrion. At this stage he seems to just submit to his father and hope to get away, although at the same time, we still see Tyrion "I want to be loved" Lannister still. I think Sansa's words will stand though: she will never bed Tyrion since I doubt he will force himself on her and she has clearly stated she does not want him.

Last thoughts:
Especcially the bed-chapter is very humilating for both of them, showing them both "naked" and vulnerable; this whole marriage is just depressing for someone who likes the two characters.

[Morte]

LordBloodraven, on 13 March 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

Regarding Tyrion's japes, I think that it wasn't mean to hurt Sansa but to protect her from Joffrey and a possible bedding ceremony. "Come here wife, time to smash your portcullis" was the bone he tossed to the crowd to appease them. After all, he has just threatened to geld the king when the latter was initiating the bedding ceremony and by the same time, shocked the invitees. So, I think it's kind of a lame joke to appease them and excuse himself. Penny attitude, I would say.

I agree.

LordBloodraven, on 13 March 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

Sansa telling Tyrion that she might never want him was great because it showed great courage and dignity and she confronted Tyrion with his contradictions. He had to decide what to do, it's either that he rapes his wife or leave her alone and I think it worked. But she was fortunate that Joff's death created chaos enough for her to leave King's Landing, because I think in the long term, Tyrion might have raped her, or Tywin would have killed Tyrion, and marry her to Martyn Lannister or Daven...  

I don't think he would have raped her (While he does frequent brothels, he is not Robert - maybe this was another hint to what a man King Bob was), however I do agree that Tywin would have had the wedding anulled (or Tyrion killed, because this was the "last straw" in his eyes) and Sansa married to a more obedient Lannister.

[Nymeria's pup]

I do not find it that strange that Sansa dances. It is something she loves and she hopes it will give her a brief respite from her troubles. I am going to make myself a bit unpopular and say that I do not view Tyrion as harshly as some. Yes he is a Lannister and he had options, but he is a product of his father's raising, his sister's derision, and the world's general dislike of him for being a Lannister/drawrf. I think the his jest when leaving the hall for the bedding were crude, but he was attempting in some way to make it seem like he really wanted to bed Sansa. I give him props for not going through with it even though I wish had figured it out before they go naked!

Granted Tyrion has many advantages over what most people in Westeros do, but does it balance out the negatives of being a Lannister and a drawf? It is a damned it you damned if you odn't situation.  I would hope if I were in the same situation as Tyrion that I could stand up to my father, but Tywin is one scary man! All three of his children have been used an manipulated by him. Tyrion and Jamie have a few redeeming moments, but Cercei is without any (unless you can admire her motherly love...ick, Joffrey).

All that being said I completely understand Sansa's unwillingness to bend down for the cloaking part. Good for her! Even more respect for her basically telling Tyrion to never touch her. This chapter show just how much strengh Sansa really has; she never cracked even during the most horrible moments of the day.

[Grail King]

Elba the Intoner, on 13 March 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

Quote from Brashcandy's analysis -

"Nothing gets in the way of Tywin winning a war, and his refusal to send the deserters to the NW, but instead to break their knees in order to send a message to others, reveals the absolute coldness behind his decisions."

Exactly!  And it also is another example of how dismissive he is of very valid threats just because they come from someone or somewhere that he believes beneath him, in this case the wildlings and Mance Rayder.  If he truly wanted to get the North to submit to him eventually, then he should be thinking about helping the Night's Watch to gain favor with the Northerners.  I guess he thought he had the North covered through his agreement with Roose Bolton to put the Bolton's in power in the North.  But it seems short sighted to rely on that alone because if the wildlings were to breach the Wall, then they could eventually be a threat to the Boltons and jeopardize his alliance with them.

I think this chapter shows the parallel between Tywin and Tyrion and the way they act as Hand, much the same way as these last few chapters with Sansa and Cersei have shown their parallels and contrasts as Queen.  Now I know many of you do not like Tyrion here and find his complaints about how his power has been taken away from him to be petulant and whiney, and I am not saying he is perfect, but it is very clear to me that Tyrion is a much better Hand than Tywin in terms of what is better for the realm as a whole.  Tyrion has a much broader view of how different people and even different regions act and relate to each other than Tywin, maybe because of his appearance and the way he has been mistreated his whole life.

I also think that Tyrion's role as an adviser is the crux of his character arc and is the reason in the plot as to why he and Sansa get married.  It's pretty obvious by the title of this thread that many of us following it anyway believe Sansa will become a major player in the game (I know that there are many people out there who don't believe this which is why I say "many", not all).  He also became friendly with Jon (who I believe is not done in this story and will have a major role to play as a leader), and is on his way to meeting Dany (though of course this may not happen but I believe it will). He is being set up to be the top adviser to the eventual power rulers of whatever the realm will look like when all this is said and done.

The reason for Tyrion's view is aided by his reading but also by his travels,I don't think Tywin ever went more than a town or two from Casterly Rock or Kings Landing, he has no desire to learn about the little people.

[Maroucia]

Elba the Intoner, on 13 March 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

Yes that is a possibility, especially if his man Davos successfully brings back Rickon to the North.  Sansa would be a great regent actins ruler for Lord Rickon.  Also, Stannis is the one making alliances with the Northerners and he apparently  had been buddy buddy with Jon Arryn before Jon's death.  His relationship with Jon could get the Lords of the Vale, where Sansa is right now, to back him eventually.

I forgot to add Jaime to the list in my last post of future big players with whom Tyrion has a relationship.  I think Jaime is being set up for something big too,and though right now he and Tyrion are estranged, Tyrion does owe Jaime his life.

Too bad he hangs with that R’hllor religious fundamentalist who wants to burn all the weirwood of the Nord to please her Lord of lights…
Stanis may have done a lot to gain the North, but I don’t see the northerners being converted any time soon.