Thrice the Hound, on 13 March 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:
I don't blame Tyrion for being so superficial. Sansa is no better herself. These people are a product of their upbringing and I don't think it is fair to be painting Tyrion as a bad person because he is only looking at the outside when it comes to women and marriage.
He's not a bad person, but it certainly makes him a hypocrite and should remove a great deal of sympathy for him when he decides to take a pretty wife knowing full well that she won't find him appealing. It's actually understandable that a person might be a bit shallow and superficial when it comes to the partner they want in their bed, but when you wilfully partake in forcing a person to marry you that's when such behaviour has now crossed the line from being about you to hurting someone else. Sansa shouldn't have to pay for Tyrion's shallowness.
In the last thread I mentioned that Tyrion is more evolved in his thoughts than any other character in the series when it comes to 'the right thing to do' otherwise he would have taken Sansa that night and not cared (and other things).
Again, I'm not going to pat Tyrion on the back for not going through with a bedding that would have been tantamount to rape given the forced circumstances of the marriage. Tyrion stopped himself at that moment because he could obviously sense the sheer terror Sansa felt in that moment, not because he realised (as he should have) that hey, this whole charade is wrong.
Not because he stopped and told himself, hey, I'm helping my corrupt family to further exploit this girl for our selfish gains. Oh no. Only because Sansa was shivering and shuddering does he get the message.
I totally get where his biterness is coming from, no women (except for Tysha) bother to look at him as anything more than a dwarf so why should he view them differently? When he tries he gets kicked in the face, just like Sansa refusing to kneel. You all cheer that effort from her but forget the conversation they had about him not really wanting this either, she humilated him for the same reasons he is so crude about women, they are both angry and bitter about their situations.
I'm struggling to understand your point here. Yes, Tyrion's life as a dwarf has been pretty shitty, but Sansa has in no way contributed to that and doesn't deserve to be his token prize because Tywin refuses to give him Casterly Rock. Her refusing to kneel wasn't about making Tyrion feel bad; it was about her standing up (literally) for herself, and refusing for that pivotal moment to submit easily to the Lannisters. As for that "conversation" that takes place right before the ceremony, I consider Tyrion's offer to be laughable. There was no real choice he was offering Sansa, and the girl was already terrified by the threats issued from Cersei and Joffrey. And what was the other choice again? Marriage to Lancel Lannister
, another person from the House that has continually oppressed her, with Lancel doing his own fair share. By the time Tyrion came out with his "alternative" Sansa was defeated, and indeed that was the whole point behind springing such a ghastly surprise on her in the first place.
Tyrion is entitled to his bitterness that kind of treatment since birth cant make you anything but bitter and to expect him to rise above it like a pheonix out of the ashes when it comes to women is just unfair.
Why is it unfair to expect him to rise above it? He certainly shouldn't be trying to alleviate that bitterness and his frustration with his family by causing misery to another person.
Tyrion does have time for bastards and cripples unlike the rest of the cast. Just because he would prefer to have an attractive and intelligent wife over one that is not doesn't make him bad. It makes him human. How many of you would marry Lollys because beauty is only skin deep? This is a world where appearances matter and Tyrion gets laughed at enough without his marriage being made a mockery of.
Yes, just like Sansa is made a mockery of, loses the friendship of the Tyrells (however false it was), and has to bear the stain of being known as Sansa Lannister, especially after the events of the Red Wedding. Compare Sansa and Tyrion for a moment. Sansa is willing to go off to Highgarden and marry a man that she's never seen before, that could very well look as unappealing as his father, and who is permanently crippled. Sure, we can say that Lollys is a much worse case than Willas, but nevertheless, for someone who values tall, strong men who can joust in tourneys and physically protect her, this is a huge sacrifice that Sansa makes. But she commits to it and is determined to give her all to the marriage. Tyrion's response to Lollys:
I'd sooner cut it off and feed it to the goats
It is bad enough that the royal court found a way to make mock of him when marrying the stunning Sansa Stark. No one looks at Tyrion and says beauty is only skin deep, I should judge him only on his intelligence and personality. His crude and rudeness is his protection just like Sansa's courtesies are hers.
The basic definition of crudeness vs. courtesy tells me all it needs to when it comes to how Sansa and Tyrion deal with their problems. One person attempts to shelter herself by disarming others, whilst the other lashes out and makes the situation more testy. This is the point I was making earlier in my analysis when I said that I was annoyed by Tyrion's vulgarity on their way from the wedding feast. Tywin had already announced that there would be no need for the bedding, but Tyrion still decides to make rude jests for what I can only consider to be his attempt to make himself feel better in that moment. Understandable? Maybe. Excusable? Not in my opinion.
Sansa is the only person that actually said in her POV that she should really look at her husband and find something beautiful in him. That says a lot about Sansa, just like Tyrion deciding not to take her until she wanted him says a lot.
You're right. It says that Tyrion isn't a rapist at least and that he truly wants a woman to want him in her bed. But Tyrion's reaction afterwards indicates that he still doesn't get it.
Reverting to a self-pitying stance wasn't what was needed. What was required was some serious self reflection and admission that there's absolutely no reason why this girl should want you, and that no, the gods aren't trying to punish you for being a dwarf.
I agree with Morte. Sansa tried but understandibly could not bring herself to imagine it the same way when she considered marriage to Wyllas. Too much has happened because of his family for her to forgive.
What I don't understand is why everyone is so happy to forgive Sansa's attitude but not Tyrions considering he wasn't responsible for her family's downfall and has been alive longer and suffered worse at the hand of his own family and the public in general. I cant expect him to be made of steel and be moraly pure at all times just because he is a man and older, that reasoning makes no sense to me.
that Tywin is planning something for Robb Stark. He knows how his father deals with traitors and realises that Tywin's casual acceptance of what the Westerlings have done is freakishly out of character. He knows that for him to claim Winterfell something
will have to go terribly wrong with Robb Stark's claim to that seat. Tyrion may not have actively participated in killing Sansa's family, but he's no innocent bystander either, and by agreeing to marry Sansa he was agreeing to become that active player in helping to usurp/capitalise on the Stark power in the North. What attitude is everyone looking to forgive Sansa for btw? Showing intense unhappiness and displeasure in the forced marriage that she is subjected to so that Tyrion can steal her claim? If that's the attitude you mean then I personally think she has all rights to display it.
I do give his character permission to be flawed because of what he has lived through just like I give Sansa permission to be hopelessly dreamy over pretty knights and I will back her if and when she becomes bitter like Cersei and starts torturing other women, I won't think it is right but I will understand why it's happening.
Well that's where we differ. The test of survival is not to sink below our challenges and problems, but to rise above them. I'd have a really hard time accepting Sansa if she suddenly morphed into a cruel harpy, and one of the reasons why I admire her so much is that she grew out of this hopeless dreaming over true knights and started to wise up to the real world and real men. All human beings are flawed, and this is not about castigating Tyrion for his weaknesses, but rather highlighting that his involvement in his father's schemes was a real low point for him.
Edited by brashcandy, 14 March 2012 - 01:54 AM.