460 replies to this topic

[Maroucia]

Morte, on 13 March 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Of course Tyrion doesn't know it, but to the reader it is clear that he is married to one of the few women who would be able to learn to love him for himself - but that this one is actually not for him to have.

Well, I’m not too sure about that. Although it’s clear that Sansa has learned to look further then the appearances, she would never have been able to truly love Tyrion. She’s been forced to wed a member of the family who has been the downfall of hers. If she had stayed in that situation for too long (trapped in King’s Landing, breeding little Lannisters), I think everyday that passes she would’ve lost more and more of her old joyfulness and fade into a shadow of who she could’ve been. She would have been a good wife in appearance, but with no love.

I’m convinced she had sympathy for Tyrion before the wedding, but that whole event has destroyed any chances she ever had of opening up to him. If ever they get the marriage annulled in an unknown number of years, I could see them become friendly then, but that’s it.

[Wouter]

brashcandy, on 13 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

Added to all this, is the sinister suspicion that Tyrion has of Tywin having some plan to kill Robb Stark. Indeed, Tyrion’s own acceptance of the plan and its success – claiming Winterfell for himself – depends on Robb Stark not having an heir that can contest Tyrion’s claim. When we think back to the promise Tyrion made to Sansa in ACOK, those words now ring hollow. Instead of helping to liberate the girl, he is helping to extend her captivity and intensify her suffering.

It's a good point that Tyrion was already counting on Robb being disinherited or getting killed without heirs; his acceptance of Sansa is clearly tied into getting lands and keeps that (would) belong to her. You're right that he is making a mockery of his promise in ACOK.

brashcandy, on 13 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

The refusal to kneel in order for Tyrion to clasp the Lannister cloak on her shoulders has important symbolic implications for Sansa’s arc. So far, she has received two cloaks, both from Sandor Clegane, and in the second incident we see her choosing voluntarily to wrap herself in his discarded cloak. One act seems to imply acceptance, whilst the other signifies flat out rejection. She didn’t refuse to kneel out of malice or in an effort to humiliate Tyrion (we see how badly she feels afterwards), but rather makes a stubborn decision not to submit herself further to Lannister authority and not to yield in the face of the destruction of all her hopes and dreams. This small act might not have prevented the marriage from being performed, but it did show Sansa’s unwillingness to accept Tyrion as a husband, and negates the meaning of this particular cloak exchange.

Sansa was very right to refuse to kneel. I hope it did annoy Tywin, who so dislikes his family getting mocked, and she certainly made a mockery of the cloak ceremony.

Having said that, the cloak exchange wasn't entirely without meaning as Tyrion does still consider Sansa to be under his protection. It may not mean that much when he is actually her main menace on this particular day/night, but on the other hand he does attempt to protect Sansa at the trial for Joffrey's murder.

Not that I blame Sansa for not particularly wanting Tyrion's protection, though!

brashcandy, on 13 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

The Tyrells’ desertion of Sansa when she would have needed their support and kindness most was very telling. I felt the most anger and disappointment at Lady Olenna, who definitely has the age and experience to discern what was behind the shot-gun wedding. Margaery can only manage a sad look, and the cousins ignore her completely. It was a harsh lesson for Sansa to learn concerning the nature of friendship. The Tyrells were willing to entertain and be nice to her when they felt they were gaining something in the bargain, but as soon as their plot dissolved, so did their “affection.” The effort shown by Garlan in trying to cheer her up being the notable exception to the women’s behaviour. It is through Garlan that we learn a bit more about Willas and it does seem as though his kindness and goodwill have not been exaggerated. It’s not hard to imagine therefore that Sansa could have found happiness with him as a husband.

Agreed, the cousins showed they never cared for her (at least Margaery showed some feelings) and the QoT is being exposed here as just another cold schemer, IMO. I'm a bit disappointed that Sansa still seems to like her in AFFC.

brashcandy, on 13 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

Final thoughts

I agree, it was weird that Sansa would dance. Sure, it would be a distraction but even so...

• I’ve always found it a little strange to fathom that Sansa was in a mood for dancing on this day, and I’d like to hear what others think about it.

Elba the Intoner, on 13 March 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

It also appears that he has a plan for gaining the North and knows that the northerners would never accept Balon Greyjoy or the ironmen as their liege.  However, I do think both Tywin and Tyrion were a little delusional about how the northerners would accept Tyrion and his son by Sansa once they tired of Greyjoy rule.  While they are mostly very perceptive, they clearly do not have an understanding of the nature of the northerners.  Does anyone really think that after everything the Lannisters have done to the Starks, the North would accept a Lannister child as their eventual leige lord just because his mother was Sansa Stark

After a winter under either Balon Greyjoy or Ramsay Bolton, maybe. Tyrion is smart and if he could get a way for food to go into the north and cruel ironmen and Bolton supporters out of it (or into the grave or the dungeon), he may have had a shout especially if he would have managed to get a child with Sansa (and with Sansa coming with him, not having suffered an "accident" in King's Landing or Casterly Rock in the meantime). Even Tyrion might seem a decent alternative after a terrible northern winter with such monstrous rulers as Balon and the Boltons - the wildling also allied with Stannis and the Night's Watch in the face of starvation and with a terrible enemy at their heels.

Elba the Intoner, on 13 March 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Third, I am wondering if the real kraken that has been spotted in the waters is going to come into play into some way.  It is mentioned in the same discussion with the three headed dragon, which we know is Dany and is very significant, but of course this news is dismissed as insignificant nonsense.  Since we the readers know that the three headed dragon is important, I am wondering if the mention of the kraken here is going to be important too or just is meant to show that magic and magical creatures are getting stronger (which again is something the Lannister's dismiss).

I wonder if the "real" Kraken might be a hint Martin is giving to the coming of Euron Greyjoy, much like Daenerys and her three dragons are represented as the "three-headed dragon" by Varys.

Elba the Intoner, on 13 March 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

I guess this goes back to my earlier comment about whether the North would really accept a Lannister child as their leige.  Of course Tywin thinks that there's no way the North will accept Greyjoy as their leige because the Greyjoys are inferior to him and house Lannister.  It doesn't seem to cross his mind that maybe the Northerners would have trouble accepting a child of Tyrion Lannister just because the child is also Sansa's.

I disagree to an extent - Tywin explicitly mentions that Balon thinks in terms of plunder (which he does), and he is right to assume that Tyrion does not. I think there is little doubt Tyrion would actually be a capable ruler and it would be in his interest to make the north thrive, as his new power base apart from "daddy" and his cruel nephew.

Elba the Intoner, on 13 March 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Finally, this whole wedding chapter through Sansa's POV from the very beginning to very end is just heartbreaking.  To think of her going through all of this humiliation and she is not even 13 is just awful.  GRRM really better give her a break soon!

Damn right!

[Wouter]

Elba the Intoner, on 13 March 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

Exactly!  And it also is another example of how dismissive he is of very valid threats just because they come from someone or somewhere that he believes beneath him, in this case the wildlings and Mance Rayder.  If he truly wanted to get the North to submit to him eventually, then he should be thinking about helping the Night's Watch to gain favor with the Northerners.  I guess he thought he had the North covered through his agreement with Roose Bolton to put the Bolton's in power in the North.  But it seems short sighted to rely on that alone because if the wildlings were to breach the Wall, then they could eventually be a threat to the Boltons and jeopardize his alliance with them.

Tywin is at war with the north at this time, and he wants Mance Rayder and Balon Greyjoy to do the work for him at no cost for himself (and he is indeed getting that, at least with Balon).
I don't think he was counting on Bolton; the Lannister want as much power for themselves as possible and I think his "sales pitch" to Tyrion was genuine in so far as he did expect Tyrion to be able to doublecross and defeat the Boltons with his genuine daughter of Ned Stark, Lannister gold (to buy soldiers and food) and with Boltons and Greyjoys being severely weakened by fighting each other, Stark loyalists and Wildlings, and even more so by the northern winter. I think Tywin was seeing things quite well actually, just without any knowledge of the Others.

Maroucia, on 13 March 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

Too bad he hangs with that R’hllor religious fundamentalist who wants to burn all the weirwood of the Nord to please her Lord of lights…
Stanis may have done a lot to gain the North, but I don’t see the northerners being converted any time soon.

Stannis may not insist on convertion in the end - depends if Melisandre's influence gets countermanded succesfully by Jon Snow and/or Davos, or not. Even Stannis can compromise to a degree, if it serves his interests. He is not that much of a believer in R'hllor, anyway. He does appreciate Melisandre and the edge she brings, but winning the northmen would bring an edge as well.

[Morte]

Maroucia, on 13 March 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

Well, I’m not too sure about that. Although it’s clear that Sansa has learned to look further then the appearances, she would never have been able to truly love Tyrion. She’s been forced to wed a member of the family who has been the downfall of hers. If she had stayed in that situation for too long (trapped in King’s Landing, breeding little Lannisters), I think everyday that passes she would’ve lost more and more of her old joyfulness and fade into a shadow of who she could’ve been. She would have been a good wife in appearance, but with no love.

I’m convinced she had sympathy for Tyrion before the wedding, but that whole event has destroyed any chances she ever had of opening up to him. If ever they get the marriage annulled in an unknown number of years, I could see them become friendly then, but that’s it.

I thought more on her general attitude to be able to love a man for himself, not for his looks or land or titles.

I agree that in this marriage, there is no change to ever be happy for them - and both of them know that (even if Tyrion does try to make it a more "normal" marriage, deep down he knows it will not work at all).

I also agree that it is possible that they become friend, if Tyrion is willing and freely anulls their marriage and does show that he is really sorry for that has happened and Sansa knows that he has nothing to do with his family's old politics toward the Stark.

[Maroucia]

Wouter, on 13 March 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Stannis may not insist on convertion in the end - depends if Melisandre's influence gets countermanded succesfully by Jon Snow and/or Davos, or not. Even Stannis can compromise to a degree, if it serves his interests. He is not that much of a believer in R'hllor, anyway. He does appreciate Melisandre and the edge she brings, but winning the northmen would bring an edge as well.

I agree Stannis does not seem to be a real R’hllor believer, but he didn’t say a thing when Melisandre was planning, with a lot of excitement, to burn all of Winterfell’s weirwoods. If I remember correctly, that is the exact reason why Jon didn’t except to become Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell. If Stannis had stepped in and said that this would not happen (as I hopped), I’m sure things would’ve turned out very differently.

So, if he’s not able to let Winterfell keep its old gods, I don’t think he’ll do it for the rest of the North.

Edited by Maroucia, 13 March 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[The Black Wolf]

Christina Ceriddwynn, on 13 March 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

This lowered my opinion of Tyrion immensely with how he cruelly dismissed Lollys.  True, she is not described as being comely and is certainly dim-witted.  She is no more to blame "how she was made" than Tyrion was.  Seems he expects beautiful women to love him and look past his birth yet he can't seem to manage the same in return.  He views Lollys the same way many view him yet he refuses to see the parallels.

I've often thought the same throughout the books. Tyrion wants beautiful women to love him in spite of his looks, but he never even considers that maybe he should focus less on the exterior of women.
To me, this seems similar to how Cersei resents the world for everything she's been denied and had to suffer through because she is a woman, yet she does nothing to help other women in similar situations because she's quite the misogynist herself. We see how much she would abhor another arranged marriage, yet she shows no sympathy whatsoever towards Sansa. She suffered through Robert beating her and raping her (I think we can assume it happened on a couple of occasions at least) but showed no inclination towards stopping her son from doing the same (and much worse) to Sansa.

[Nymeria Star-Eyes]

I absolutely love what you guys are doing here. Sansa is probably the character in asoiaf that most deserves an in depth re-read.
I look forward to going through these threads!

I'm sorry if this is off topic, but because there seems to be a lot of wonderful Sansa fans here, I'd like to point you to this post about Fandom March Madness.

Thanks!

[Elba the Intoner]

@Wouter -
I do agree that Tyrion would make a great leader, and even could be a great leader in the North, especially given that he has some sympathy for Jon and the NIght's Watch.  However, I do think it would be very difficult for the Northerners to accept him as such.

Regarding this quote -
Tywin is at war with the north at this time, and he wants Mance Rayder and Balon Greyjoy to do the work for him at no cost for himself (and he is indeed getting that, at least with Balon).
I don't think he was counting on Bolton; the Lannister want as much power for themselves as possible and I think his "sales pitch" to Tyrion was genuine in so far as he did expect Tyrion to be able to doublecross and defeat the Boltons with his genuine daughter of Ned Stark, Lannister gold (to buy soldiers and food) and with Boltons and Greyjoys being severely weakened by fighting each other, Stark loyalists and Wildlings, and even more so by the northern winter. I think Tywin was seeing things quite well actually, just without any knowledge of the Others.

I totally get that Tywin was counting on Balon Greyjoy and Mance Rayder to fight things out in the North for him, and this seems like a good strategy for the short run.  But after that happens then what? Tyrion will be able to swoop in there with his child by Sansa and claim Winterfell and that everyone will accept him?  I don't think so, especially when they have made no other attempt to help the North such as by sending men to shore up the Night's Watch.  That is why I view his approach her as short sighted.

Even taking into account such things as you mention (being ruled by the Greyjoys and Boltons through a long winter and raids by the wildlings) it would be hard for Northerners to accept him.  After the red wedding in which many of the northern houses lost members, it would be very hard for them to accept Tyrion.  We have now seen that "the North remembers" (is that a great line or what!?).  I think they would also realize that the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion was forced, just as the wedding of "Arya" to Ramsay Bolton was later on.

[Fire Eater]

Christina Ceriddwynn, on 13 March 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

Elba after reading your post it finally occurred to me (i'm getting old, mind is mush) that almost every direct interaction Sansa has with a man involves unwanted sexual contact.
As you pointed out, Joff gropes her (while also filling her with his sick words), then Tyrion gropes her in the wedding bed....Marillion later and LF (ok he just kisses her)

Good catch, I missed the Joffrey grope scene. Later in the scene when Sansa is dancing with Joffrey, he goes so far as to kiss her. He says "My uncle is an ugly little thing, but you'll still have me." After beheading her father and having the Kingsguard beat her, he thinks she can be still into him. Grabbing her breast, and his conversation with her shows that he's already adopted some of Robert's vices.

As for Tyrion, while I agree with you on his choices, to be fair he did offer Sansa for her to marry Lancel instead, and after his mistake in groping her he said she didn't have to sleep with him if she didn't want to to the point she said not ever.

As for the Tyrell entourage abandoning her, I find that be shameful. They still stay at the Red Keep with Sansa, but just because Sansa is unable to marry Willas, something she had no choice in, they drop her at the curb. Sansa was quite alone and when they had finally given her the company she needed that broke her isolation, they cruelly snatched it away. Sansa embraced the Tyrell clique the way Margaery embraced Cersei when she married Tommen, and we know how Cersei repaid Margaery. In AFfC, karma takes the form of Cersei, and she proves that karma can be a real bitch.

Edited by Fire Eater, 13 March 2012 - 10:31 PM.

[Thrice the Hound]

I don't blame Tyrion for being so superficial. Sansa is no better herself. These people are a product of their upbringing and I don't think it is fair to be painting Tyrion as a bad person because he is only looking at the outside when it comes to women and marriage. In the last thread I mentioned that Tyrion is more evolved in his thoughts than any other character in the series when it comes to 'the right thing to do' otherwise he would have taken Sansa that night and not cared (and other things). I totally get where his biterness is coming from, no women (except for Tysha) bother to look at him as anything more than a dwarf so why should he view them differently? When he tries he gets kicked in the face, just like Sansa refusing to kneel. You all cheer that effort from her but forget the conversation they had about him not really wanting this either, she humilated him for the same reasons he is so crude about women, they are both angry and bitter about their situations.
Tyrion is entitled to his bitterness that kind of treatment since birth cant make you anything but bitter and to expect him to rise above it like a pheonix out of the ashes when it comes to women is just unfair.

Tyrion does have time for bastards and cripples unlike the rest of the cast. Just because he would prefer to have an attractive and intelligent wife over one that is not doesn't make him bad. It makes him human. How many of you would marry Lollys because beauty is only skin deep? This is a world where appearances matter and Tyrion gets laughed at enough without his marriage being made a mockery of.
It is bad enough that the royal court found a way to make mock of him when marrying the stunning Sansa Stark. No one looks at Tyrion and says beauty is only skin deep, I should judge him only on his intelligence and personality. His crude and rudeness is his protection just like Sansa's courtesies are hers.

Sansa is the only person that actually said in her POV that she should really look at her husband and find something beautiful in him. That says a lot about Sansa, just like Tyrion deciding not to take her until she wanted him says a lot.

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Of course Tyrion doesn't know it, but to the reader it is clear that he is married to one of the few women who would be able to learn to love him for himself - but that this one is actually not for him to have.

I agree with Morte. Sansa tried but understandibly could not bring herself to imagine it the same way when she considered marriage to Wyllas. Too much has happened because of his family for her to forgive.
What I don't understand is why everyone is so happy to forgive Sansa's attitude but not Tyrions considering he wasn't responsible for her family's downfall and has been alive longer and suffered worse at the hand of his own family and the public in general. I cant expect him to be made of steel and be moraly pure at all times just because he is a man and older, that reasoning makes no sense to me.
I do give his character permission to be flawed because of what he has lived through just like I give Sansa permission to be hopelessly dreamy over pretty knights and I will back her if and when she becomes bitter like Cersei and starts torturing other women, I won't think it is right but I will understand why it's happening.

[Maroucia]

Fire Eater, on 13 March 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

Good catch, I missed the Joffrey grope scene. Later in the scene when Sansa is dancing with Joffrey, he goes so far as to kiss her. He says "My uncle is an ugly little thing, but you'll still have me." After beheading her father and having the Kingsguard beat her, he thinks she can be still into him. Grabbing her breast, and his conversation with her shows that he's already adopted some of Robert's vices.

As for Tyrion, while I agree with you on his choices, to be fair he did offer Sansa for her to marry Lancel instead, and after his mistake in groping her he said she didn't have to sleep with him if she didn't want to to the point she said not ever.

I don’t think he believes she could still be into him, no, he’s stupid, but not that much. Joffrey is just what we could call, a psychopath who get’s a trill at harassing an unwilling victim. He loves groping her while seeing chock in her eyes. That’s what turns him on. I’m sure he would’ve been bored with Margaery if he was not allowed to beat her and had to be nice.

[Raksha the Demon]

A masterful analysis of a pivotal chapter in Sansa's story; thanks, BrashCandy...

This is one of Sansa's lowest points, surpassed perhaps only by her seeing her father's execution and her sorrow and depression the next day (followed by Joffrey's abuse).  Her brutally abrupt transition from hopeful bride-to-be of Willas Tyrell to reluctant and terrified bride of Tyrion Lannister is written well, and Sansa's ordeal is heartbreaking to read.  For a scared, lonely and utterly isolated and helpless 12-year-old girl, she acquits herself well; keeping up her dignity and even managing to publicly show her resistance to the forced marriage.  

While I have some sympathy for Tyrion here, being pressured to marry a landed bride in order to get the property that he should have as Tyrion's son (especially with Jaime being in the Kingsguard), he's acting more childish than Sansa.  Tyrion wants to have his cake and eat it too - save a beautiful girl in distress from a terrible fate (Sansa being abused and probably raped by Joffrey or another Lannister) and become Lord of Winterfell by marrying her, and have her love him too.  He's cast Sansa as a noble-born version of Tysha with one heckuva dowry.  Sansa at least seems to have put her youthful fantasies on hold, or at least relegated them to wistful dreams; she had focussed on becoming a good wife to Willas Tyrell, who she did not even know.  

Sansa seems to be trying, in this sad situation, to be an adult, despite her extreme youth.  She doesn't scream or whimper or cry when her new Lannister husband is naked and aroused and ogling her naked body and says that he desires her even though she's a child (Tyrion, you sure know how to seduce a girl!  I mean, ewwww! ).  She's trying to figure out how to behave in a role that is not only adult but not one for which she was ever schooled - that of a reluctant hostage bride forcibly married to a member of a family that has murdered her father and is fighting her brother.  There's a moment during the bedding when Sansa wonders what exactly she should do, should she lie down on the bed - that's especially heart-rending.  Still, Sansa faces Tyrion and tries to look at him the way a mature bride would, hearkening back to the second best advice given her by poor Septa Mordane (the first being that a lady's courtesy is her armor) - there's always some part of a man's body that is beautiful, to concentrate on that.  It's neither Sansa's fault or that of the late Septa that Sansa has to see a naked and very ugly dwarf (he doesn't look like Peter Dinklage in the book); but she does try to summon up some interest, some desire, and fails.  

As I've said before, Tyrion really made a bad situation worse.  I'll give him kudos for skipping the bedding ritual and ultimately refusing to take the obviously unwilling Sansa, but he approaches her as if she is a willing bride, someone who is so grateful that he's saved her from worse horror that she could be amenable to having sex with him, even though she is not even thirteen.  Again, I think he's confusing Sansa with Tysha; because Tyrion would love to replay his first marriage with a happy ending.  Tyrion is a mature man in his mid-twenties, it is up to him to be older and wiser than the scared little girl he's married; yet he not only urges her to disrobe, he strips himself, announces his desire for her verbally and physically, gropes her breast, and only stops himself from having sex with her because Sansa's utter fear and youth and innocence makes him pause.  I think Tyrion expected gratitude from Sansa because he had the common decency not to go through with a bedding that would be just a hair's-breath above a rape in terms of moral culpability.  And he was quite annoyed that not only was Sansa not particularly grateful, but she defied the very concept of having sex with him at all - an act that takes all of Sansa's courage.

It does not seem to occur to Tyrion, who is often so perceptive of other people's emotions, that Ned Stark's daughter might not fall rapturously into the arms of any Lannister, even one who has been somewhat kind to her, and especially one who is marrying her to take the Stark lands.   I think Tyrion is stuck in the Tysha fantasy, and angered that his new little bride won't play it with him.  He doesn't see her as a person, just as a pretty little damsel in distress, a little damsel with a huge dowry that could free him from his repressive father and vicious sister and give him a challenging but worthwhile new direction.  

I did feel a little sad for Tyrion when Sansa is looking unhappily at his naked body; but he was the one who insisted on baring himself to her.  A man as smart as Tyrion could have planned a more measured and sensitive seduction, and started out with some touching in the dark and moved on, over a period of months, to actual sex, rather than present himself naked to so young and reluctant a bride.  A slower seduction might not have gained Sansa's love, but it would have been far less traumatic for both of them.

I can understand why Tyrion made the rude remarks about smashing-the-portcullis; as a concession to Joffrey's desire for further humiliation of Sansa, and the others' desire for a public 'bedding' rite with plenty of ribaldry and undressing of bride and groom.  It was one of his few sensible acts during the wedding night, and one he should have explained to Sansa when they were alone.

[Summerqueen]

I feel like we've talked about this chapter so often in the lead up to it, I don't have much to say here.

However, I do blame Tyrion for being a raving hypocrite. Sansa is beautiful. Her being shallow does not stink of hypocrisy at least. What's Tyrion's excuse? There is none. Tyrion's hypocrisy interfered with my sympathizing with his self pity. In fact, this may have been the first chapter in which I felt his self pity was a damning character flaw. Usually, when he felt sorry for himself, I gave him my pity too. That stopped about here.

Additionally, the marriage cloak is symbolic of a husband's protection and the security he offers. If he is unable to fit the cloak around his bride by himself this symbolizes his inability to protect her and provide her with security. Tyrion is so busy feeling hard done by that he doesn't admit his own failure. In the end, he isn't able to provide or protect. The marriage is based on fraud. He cannot uphold (for various reasons) his end of the social contract, and the cloak illustrates that. Tyrion's physical limitations become symbolic of the limitations placed on him by society in general and his family in particular. Sansa's refusal to kneel was justified on more than one level. On the level of the social contract, her kneeling would have indicated her post-marriage security and protection only through utter submission and humiliation.

[brashcandy]

Thrice the Hound, on 13 March 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

I don't blame Tyrion for being so superficial. Sansa is no better herself. These people are a product of their upbringing and I don't think it is fair to be painting Tyrion as a bad person because he is only looking at the outside when it comes to women and marriage.

He's not a bad person, but it certainly makes him a hypocrite and should remove a great deal of sympathy for him when he decides to take a pretty wife knowing full well that she won't find him appealing. It's actually understandable that a person might be a bit shallow and superficial when it comes to the partner they want in their bed, but when you wilfully partake in forcing a person to marry you that's when such behaviour has now crossed the line from being about you to hurting someone else. Sansa shouldn't have to pay for Tyrion's shallowness.

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In the last thread I mentioned that Tyrion is more evolved in his thoughts than any other character in the series when it comes to 'the right thing to do' otherwise he would have taken Sansa that night and not cared (and other things).

Again, I'm not going to pat Tyrion on the back for not going through with a bedding that would have been tantamount to rape given the forced circumstances of the marriage. Tyrion stopped himself at that moment because he could obviously sense the sheer terror Sansa felt in that moment, not because he realised (as he should have) that hey, this whole charade is wrong. Not because he stopped and told himself, hey, I'm helping my corrupt family to further exploit this girl for our selfish gains. Oh no. Only because Sansa was shivering and shuddering does he get the message.

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I totally get where his biterness is coming from, no women (except for Tysha) bother to look at him as anything more than a dwarf so why should he view them differently? When he tries he gets kicked in the face, just like Sansa refusing to kneel. You all cheer that effort from her but forget the conversation they had about him not really wanting this either, she humilated him for the same reasons he is so crude about women, they are both angry and bitter about their situations.

I'm struggling to understand your point here. Yes, Tyrion's life as a dwarf has been pretty shitty, but Sansa has in no way contributed to that and doesn't deserve to be his token prize because Tywin refuses to give him Casterly Rock. Her refusing to kneel wasn't about making Tyrion feel bad; it was about her standing up (literally) for herself, and refusing for that pivotal moment to submit easily to the Lannisters. As for that "conversation" that takes place right before the ceremony, I consider Tyrion's offer to be laughable. There was no real choice he was offering Sansa, and the girl was already terrified by the threats issued from Cersei and Joffrey. And what was the other choice again? Marriage to Lancel Lannister, another person from the House that has continually oppressed her, with Lancel doing his own fair share. By the time Tyrion came out with his "alternative" Sansa was defeated, and indeed that was the whole point behind springing such a ghastly surprise on her in the first place.

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Tyrion is entitled to his bitterness that kind of treatment since birth cant make you anything but bitter and to expect him to rise above it like a pheonix out of the ashes when it comes to women is just unfair.

Why is it unfair to expect him to rise above it? He certainly shouldn't be trying to alleviate that bitterness and his frustration with his family by causing misery to another person.

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Tyrion does have time for bastards and cripples unlike the rest of the cast. Just because he would prefer to have an attractive and intelligent wife over one that is not doesn't make him bad. It makes him human. How many of you would marry Lollys because beauty is only skin deep? This is a world where appearances matter and Tyrion gets laughed at enough without his marriage being made a mockery of.

Yes, just like Sansa is made a mockery of, loses the friendship of the Tyrells (however false it was), and has to bear the stain of being known as Sansa Lannister, especially after the events of the Red Wedding. Compare Sansa and Tyrion for a moment. Sansa is willing to go off to Highgarden and marry a man that she's never seen before, that could very well look as unappealing as his father, and who is permanently crippled. Sure, we can say that Lollys is a much worse case than Willas, but nevertheless, for someone who values tall, strong men who can joust in tourneys and physically protect her, this is a huge sacrifice that Sansa makes. But she commits to it and is determined to give her all to the marriage. Tyrion's response to Lollys:

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I'd sooner cut it off and feed it to the goats

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It is bad enough that the royal court found a way to make mock of him when marrying the stunning Sansa Stark. No one looks at Tyrion and says beauty is only skin deep, I should judge him only on his intelligence and personality. His crude and rudeness is his protection just like Sansa's courtesies are hers.

The basic definition of crudeness vs. courtesy tells me all it needs to when it comes to how Sansa and Tyrion deal with their problems. One person attempts to shelter herself by disarming others, whilst the other lashes out and makes the situation more testy. This is the point I was making earlier in my analysis when I said that I was annoyed by Tyrion's vulgarity on their way from the wedding feast. Tywin had already announced that there would be no need for the bedding, but Tyrion still decides to make rude jests for what I can only consider to be his attempt to make himself feel better in that moment. Understandable? Maybe. Excusable? Not in my opinion.

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Sansa is the only person that actually said in her POV that she should really look at her husband and find something beautiful in him. That says a lot about Sansa, just like Tyrion deciding not to take her until she wanted him says a lot.

You're right. It says that Tyrion isn't a rapist at least and that he truly wants a woman to want him in her bed. But Tyrion's reaction afterwards indicates that he still doesn't get it. Reverting to a self-pitying stance wasn't what was needed. What was required was some serious self reflection and admission that there's absolutely no reason why this girl should want you, and that no, the gods aren't trying to punish you for being a dwarf.

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I agree with Morte. Sansa tried but understandibly could not bring herself to imagine it the same way when she considered marriage to Wyllas. Too much has happened because of his family for her to forgive.
What I don't understand is why everyone is so happy to forgive Sansa's attitude but not Tyrions considering he wasn't responsible for her family's downfall and has been alive longer and suffered worse at the hand of his own family and the public in general. I cant expect him to be made of steel and be moraly pure at all times just because he is a man and older, that reasoning makes no sense to me.

Tyrion knows that Tywin is planning something for Robb Stark. He knows how his father deals with traitors and realises that Tywin's casual acceptance of what the Westerlings have done is freakishly out of character. He knows that for him to claim Winterfell something will have to go terribly wrong with Robb Stark's claim to that seat. Tyrion may not have actively participated in killing Sansa's family, but he's no innocent bystander either, and by agreeing to marry Sansa he was agreeing to become that active player in helping to usurp/capitalise on the Stark power in the North. What attitude is everyone looking to forgive Sansa for btw? Showing intense unhappiness and displeasure in the forced marriage that she is subjected to so that Tyrion can steal her claim? If that's the attitude you mean then I personally think she has all rights to display it.

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I do give his character permission to be flawed because of what he has lived through just like I give Sansa permission to be hopelessly dreamy over pretty knights and I will back her if and when she becomes bitter like Cersei and starts torturing other women, I won't think it is right but I will understand why it's happening.

Well that's where we differ. The test of survival is not to sink below our challenges and problems, but to rise above them. I'd have a really hard time accepting Sansa if she suddenly morphed into a cruel harpy, and one of the reasons why I admire her so much is that she grew out of this hopeless dreaming over true knights and started to wise up to the real world and real men. All human beings are flawed, and this is not about castigating Tyrion for his weaknesses, but rather highlighting that his involvement in his father's schemes was a real low point for him.

Edited by brashcandy, 14 March 2012 - 01:54 AM.

[brashcandy]

On the question of Sansa's dancing at the wedding: I understand what those posters are saying about her trying to escape the reality of the marriage and losing herself in a favourable outlet, but like Wouter stated, there's still something that just strikes me as odd and inconsistent with the terrible unhappiness Sansa must have been feeling here.

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Additionally, the marriage cloak is symbolic of a husband's protection and the security he offers. If he is unable to fit the cloak around his bride by himself this symbolizes his inability to protect her and provide her with security. Tyrion is so busy feeling hard done by that he doesn't admit his own failure. In the end, he isn't able to provide or protect. The marriage is based on fraud. He cannot uphold (for various reasons) his end of the social contract, and the cloak illustrates that. Tyrion's physical limitations become symbolic of the limitations placed on him by society in general and his family in particular. Sansa's refusal to kneel was justified on more than one level. On the level of the social contract, her kneeling would have indicated her post-marriage security and protection only through utter submission and humiliation.

Summerqueen, your points above were excellent.

Edited by brashcandy, 14 March 2012 - 01:51 AM.

[Raksha the Demon]

I just wanted to add that if Tyrion had gone through with the actual bedding, and later made Sansa pregnant, and she had become the mother of Lannisters; it might have destroyed her.  She might well have been viewed as something of a traitor in the North (for having wed into the family that killed her father), and as a traitor's daughter by the Lannister retainers and bannermen.    Sansa would probably have felt like a traitor herself, and would have been torn all her life by her loyalty to her own shattered house and her desire to love and protect her children.          

[brashcandy]

Raksha the Demon, on 14 March 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

I just wanted to add that if Tyrion had gone through with the actual bedding, and later made Sansa pregnant, and she had become the mother of Lannisters; it might have destroyed her.  She might well have been viewed as something of a traitor in the North (for having wed into the family that killed her father), and as a traitor's daughter by the Lannister retainers and bannermen. Sansa would probably have felt like a traitor herself, and would have been torn all her life by her loyalty to her own shattered house and her desire to love and protect her children.   

Agreed, Raksha. And I only just read your analysis upthread and realised you made a very similar case to my response to Thrice the Hound.

[Lyanna Stark]

Morte, on 13 March 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

I thought more on her general attitude to be able to love a man for himself, not for his looks or land or titles.

That attitude seems to be really scarce in Westeros and it stands in stark contrast to how people view Sansa: as a pretty dressed up doll with an impressive dowry (i.e. her claim). Poor Sansa. I wonder if she ever will get to marry for love in the end?

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I agree that in this marriage, there is no change to ever be happy for them - and both of them know that (even if Tyrion does try to make it a more "normal" marriage, deep down he knows it will not work at all).

I also agree that it is possible that they become friend, if Tyrion is willing and freely anulls their marriage and does show that he is really sorry for that has happened and Sansa knows that he has nothing to do with his family's old politics toward the Stark.

This made me wonder actually, since Tyrion has "disappeared" and Sansa too, in a way and they may stay away for a long time under "fake" identities, how long will the marriage last without being called void since, well, the participants (or at least one of them) is presumed lost or dead.

I doubt LF will wait for a decade before trying to marry Sansa off to Harry the Heir, so it seems likely that he will try and arrange something like: too much time has past, Tyrion Lannister must be presumed dead and Sansa Stark released from the union. He is setting his natural born daughter Alayne Stone to marry Harry, but he intends for it to be Sansa Stark he "reveals". Strangely, at the moment, being married to Tyrion protects Sansa from another shotgun marriage since even if he is gone, the union can't be disgarded that easily.

brashcandy, on 14 March 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

He's not a bad person, but it certainly makes him a hypocrite and should remove a great deal of sympathy for him when he decides to take a pretty wife knowing full well that she won't find him appealing. It's actually understandable that a person might be a bit shallow and superficial when it comes to the partner they want in their bed, but when you wilfully partake in forcing a person to marry you that's when such behaviour has now crossed the line from being about you to hurting someone else. Sansa shouldn't have to pay for Tyrion's shallowness.

I think again it comes down to Littlefinger's wisdom: When you know what a man wants, you can move him. Tyrion wants to be loved, and more specifically, he wants a pretty/reasonably attractive girl to love him and want him.

Further, he wants to get away from Tywin and the rest of his family very, very much. Tywin knew this and played directly into Tyrion's weaknesses. The equivalent for Sansa would be to put her in front of Aemon the Dragonknight who would offer her a free ride home to Winterfell. It doesn't make Tyrion particularly noble, it makes him a fallible human.

I think Tyrion does realise his mistake when Sansa is naked in his bed though, and just what he has agreed to do (and he can't really make himself go through with it in its entirety). Sansa will not be Shae or Tysha or ever love him. Through ACOK and ASOS we really see Tyrion scolding himself for believing pretty girls love him, but even though he tells himself that, his longing to be loved still overpowers his common sense and all the loud warnings in his head.

The wedding chapter is not Tyrion's finest moment by far, but it's still not his worst. I don't think at this point he could withstand Tywin the way he hammered at Tyrion's weaknesses.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 14 March 2012 - 02:23 AM.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I have a slightly less harsh view of the Tyrells for their behavior.  They have to have realized that this wedding was thrown together because their plot to marry Sansa to Willas has been discovered.  They still have not cemented their own marriage alliance with the Lannisters, and probably felt that they could not afford any public display of emotion toward Sansa. Gaining the crown for Marg is their entire goal at this point and gaining Winterfell would have just been a nice little plum.  They cannot afford to have Tywin suddenly start entertaining other ideas regarding Joff's marriage prospects, army or no, so the safest course for them is to remain stonefaced and unmoved.  Their plans to take out Joff are still in place, so I would like to believe that they are at least able to comfort themselves with the knowledge that soon their little erstwhile friend will have one less abusive jerk to worry about.

Secondly, I view Sansa's dancing as another extension of her general "eff you" attitude toward the Lannisters.  She is not going to allow them to publicly break her.  Also, she probably realizes that with a husband like Tyrion, her opportunities to dance and enjoy herself at all are numbered.  So I did not find her dancing that odd.  

Lastly, and this is a relatively small point (considering the broad scope of despicable acts we know Tywin to have committed and capable of), but if I had never hated Tywin before, I would now for his unbelievably heartless throwaway talk about Tyrion making sure he consummates the marriage.  He acknowledges with his next breath that she is far too young for this, by giving Tyrion "permission" to wait a couple of years before bedding her again, yet basically insists that Tyrion commit the rape of a child as a matter of duty.  This, from the man who kept his own precious daughter locked up tight until she was plenty old enough to be safely bedded. Oh, what I would have given for Tyrion to have held off with that crossbow just long enough to inform Tywin in detail and at some length what Cersei and Jaime had been up to since they were old enough to realize that tab A goes into slot B.

I honestly don't even have the words to describe how much this one act made me hate that man.  It is not bad enough that she has lost half her family, or that you are plotting the murder of the rest, or that you are forcing her into a repugnant marriage that is not even that important to Tywin strategically - he obviously is dubious about the idea that this will ever result in Tyrion ruling Winterfell, he would never entrust such a plum to Tyrion.  If he truly thought this was the way to own Winterfell he'd have married her to Devan or Lancel, someone he believes might have a chance at holding it.  I believe at this point he has probably already promised Winterfell to Bolton in exchange for his participation in the RW.

No, this move is solely to keep Sansa out of Tyrell hands, and keep Tyrion occupied and placated for a while so he won't make too much a nuisance of himself.  And for those lousy, half assed reasons, let the consummation with the child commence!

There really is no word for him.

[Elba the Intoner]

Ooohhh!!  Lady of the North that was very very well said!!  Bravo!  I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.  I just wanted to add that I too am still feeling sympathetic to the Tyrells (I am glad I am not the only one).  We don't really know what they were thinking after this sham of a marriage.  What we do know is that basically Mace is the one who wanted the marriage for his daughter and Olenna was against it, but once the plan was put in place, what could she do?  She has to think about protecting her grandaughter from marriage to a monster.  I thought that Garlan's treatment of Sansa and concern for her was sincere too.

Also, this quote:

It is not bad enough that she has lost half her family, or that you are plotting the murder of the rest, or that you are forcing her into a repugnant marriage that is not even that important to Tywin strategically - he obviously is dubious about the idea that this will ever result in Tyrion ruling Winterfell, he would never entrust such a plum to Tyrion. If he truly thought this was the way to own Winterfell he'd have married her to Devan or Lancel, someone he believes might have a chance at holding it. I believe at this point he has probably already promised Winterfell to Bolton in exchange for his participation in the RW.

I think this is why I feel sympathetic towards Tyrion too.  He has been manipulated by Tywin at every turn and I just find it so sad.