Sorry for the very long post.
The whole scene between Tyrion and Tywin is sickening. Tywin’s comment that
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Your sister swears she’s flowered. If so, she is a woman fit to be wed. You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as a husband.
Highlights that even he knows she is too young, but as he says himself, the girl’s happiness doesn’t matter. He maybe manipulating Tyrion, but Tyrion goes along with it due to his desire to have Winterfell and a beautiful wife. He has defied his father before and continues to endanger Shae (his supposed love) just to suit his desires. He may be unaware of the full details, but for him to get Winterfell, he himself knows that Robb has to be out of the picture. Therefore he is complicit in screwing over Sansa’s brother and to some extent, he must know that Robb’s death is likely.
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She had to bite her lip to keep from sobbing.
Although she bites her lip, what I had missed previously was that she wept all the way through the ceremony. Her distress is awful to see, and how Tyrion remains oblivious to it is beyond belief. While she has done what is asked of her, we do at least see when she refuses to kneel, the strength of will that so few in KL seem to realise is in her character. When she finally kneels, it is past the symbolic cloak ceremony, and is soley out of kindness. She could have embarrassed Tyrion further, but the point about not kneeling, to me at least, was her defience at her own humiliation. Her grace and dignity in this situation was again very befitting of a Queen.
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My friends, Sansa thought bitterly.
Another horribly harsh lesson to learn about people and it is sad that this chapter really marks the beginning of Sansa seeing herself as just a claim to others and not someone who is wanted for herself. Not telling her in advance was also particularly cruel.
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“Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle.”
I know a lot of people suggest that Tyrion was throwing a bone to the crowd, but to be honest this sounds just like the normal snarky Tyrion. He is not terribly sensitive about other’s feelings if he himself thinks something is funny. (Although the Pretty / Bacon incident in ADWD may actually make him reflect on his behaviour, as he himself didn’t think it was funny when someone else said the same joke and it hurt Penny’s feelings). The bedding had been dispensed with, and there was not need to do this, but he was angry and angry people say things that are hurtful. Also given his later bitterness about her not kneeling, I wonder if some of this was getting his own back.
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He is as frightened as I am, Sansa realized. Perhaps that should have made her feel more kindly towards him, but it did not. All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire. He was looking at her, waiting for her to say something, but all her words had withered. She could only stand there trembling.
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It took all the courage that was in her to look in those mismatched eyes and say, “And if I never want you to, my lord?”
Unlike Tyrion, Sansa has only had a few hours to mentally prepare herself for this. This is where I think Tyrion really has failed morally. He has known about this impending wedding for up to two weeks and been prepared to consummate the marriage by forcing an unwilling prisoner. Whether he had convinced himself that like his prostitutes who act a part, Sansa was going to be a sudden loving Tysha 2.0 is up for debate. It would have been good to have some idea of what he was thinking at this point. Either way, he was not prepared for her to say she would never want him. Tyrion has a wonderful ability to delude himself (like with the mountain clans and the people of KL) and this statement was a wake up call for him.
Sansa during this entire scene displays an immense amount of courage. She has been repeatedly humiliated by Joffery as we know and has grown to be able to hide what she feels. In fact she has become so used to not revealing her true feelings, that even saying she would never want him is incredibly brave.
brashcandy, on 13 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:
Bottom line: Tyrion could have refused Tywin. He could have chosen, no matter the extent of his father’s displeasure, to not be part of a sham marriage to steal a girl’s claim with the very real possibility that it would involve tramping over the graves of her family members, and ignoring the pain that the girl would feel from such a union with the family that murdered hers. Whilst being fully aware that Tywin and Kevan were out to entrap him, Tyrion allows himself to be ensnared by the lure of a pretty wife and an impressive castle. His thoughts on Sansa as “sweet-smelling” and loving songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights are only considered as to how they make him feel, not as a serious objection to why would he make this girl extremely unhappy.
I agree entirely. Tyrion may later think he has had the marriage forced on him, but that is when it has all gone wrong. At this point he may be slightly reluctant but the idea obviously entices him. I would say it is this choice that begins his moral spiral downward. He is actively participating in runing the life of a young girl who he had promised not to harm. I am amazed he thought she would trust him after he broke his word to her so horribly.
brashcandy, on 13 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:
This is the second time that Sansa was alone in a bedroom with a man, scared and somewhat helpless about what was going to happen next. With the Hound we saw her getting over her terror and reaching out to him in a moment of compassion and empathy that brought them closer together and left her with lingering doubts/feelings. Her bedroom scene with Tyrion, however, is remarkably different in terms of the outcome. This time, even though Sansa can empathise with his feelings – “he is as frightened as I am” – there is absolutely no compulsion or instinct that she feels to comfort this man. What she feels isn’t compassion or concern, but pity, and Martin refers to it as the death of desire. The best way to describe it would be like feeling sorry for someone, but having absolutely no interest in alleviating their pain. If this scene is meant to parallel the earlier one with the Hound, Martin is sending a clear message about which relationship still has the potential to go somewhere.
This is an excellent comparison. Whilst Sansa felt some compassion for Tyrion during the ceremony and eventually knelt for the end part where he kissed her (I note that he moved forward to kiss her, she did not kiss him), she feels no such compunction in this scene. She again displays a remarkabley adult approach to the situation and as said elsewhere, a let’s get this overwith type of attitude. Tyrion on the other hand does not do well in this scene. He had possibly two weeks to think about what would happen between them, and could have decided to defy his father and keep it secret (as he does with Shae) by simply telling her not to get undressed and that he wouldn’t sleep with her, but she must pretend he did so that he cannot be forced to. He could even have cut his finger to provide a blood stain.
brashcandy, on 13 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:
This is probably not Sansa’s first time seeing a man’s naked body, but it is definitely the first time for her seeing a naked body that is enflamed with desire for her. Should Tyrion have taken off his clothes? No. Should Tyrion have made Sansa take off her clothes? No. Should Tyrion have asked her if she was frightened when he said that he desires her despite her being a child? No. I’m not without sympathy for Tyrion in this scene, but his discomfort could have been avoided by refusing to participate in the marriage and definitely by refusing to go ahead with a bedding. Fondling Sansa’s breast and then deciding to stop when he sensed her terror was definitely taking it too far. When he gets angry because Sansa has put up her courtesy armor, I have to wonder what he expected. She’s a young girl who’s just been forced into marrying you so that you can lay claim to her family’s home and lands, and you expect her to be open and honest with you? At that moment, courtesy was probably all that was keeping Sansa from breaking down completely.
It is remarkable indeed that Sansa managed to get through the entire day without collapsing. Her ability to recollect herself when Ser Osmund reminds her that she’s a wolf really highlighted how her inner strength and courage have grown. She may not be able to warg, but she’s not lacking in the other ‘wolfish’ attributes of her family’s banner. At this moment, her dignity and nobility of character are what she has to rely on even when grown women like Cersei admit that they would be hysterical and panicking. Even though her resolve slips at times throughout the day, she never lets her grief get out of control and consume her.
Indeed, what we have seen in this re-read is that despite being emotionally isolated, Sansa has not let the horrendous things that have happened to her break her. She has learnt to survive without sinking to utter despair.
brashcandy, on 13 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:
The refusal to kneel in order for Tyrion to clasp the Lannister cloak on her shoulders has important symbolic implications for Sansa’s arc. So far, she has received two cloaks, both from Sandor Clegane, and in the second incident we see her choosing voluntarily to wrap herself in his discarded cloak. One act seems to imply acceptance, whilst the other signifies flat out rejection. She didn’t refuse to kneel out of malice or in an effort to humiliate Tyrion (we see how badly she feels afterwards), but rather makes a stubborn decision not to submit herself further to Lannister authority and not to yield in the face of the destruction of all her hopes and dreams. This small act might not have prevented the marriage from being performed, but it did show Sansa’s unwillingness to accept Tyrion as a husband, and negates the meaning of this particular cloak exchange.
I too hope that her resistance symbolises that the marriage was ultimately meaningless. Whilst her relationship with Sandor is something that seems to be built up in the text, I still can’t see it playing out into a future relationship (although it would be nice if it did) other than heroic death or guarding her in a different capacity. What is interesting is that she also took Barristen Selmy’s cloak and both he and Sandor had Kingsguard Cloaks and I wonder if this foreshadows her role as a future Queen. The only two KG members with any honour, has the future Queen use their cloaks to protect herself.
brashcandy, on 13 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:
The Tyrells were willing to entertain and be nice to her when they felt they were gaining something in the bargain, but as soon as their plot dissolved, so did their “affection.” The effort shown by Garlan in trying to cheer her up being the notable exception to the women’s behaviour. It is through Garlan that we learn a bit more about Willas and it does seem as though his kindness and goodwill have not been exaggerated. It’s not hard to imagine therefore that Sansa could have found happiness with him as a husband.
I always found it interesting that it is Marg and her Grandmother who are centre frame whilst Marg’s mother seems to be pushed to the sidelines. Similarly whilst the Tyrell ladies almost seem told to ignore her, it is Garlan’s wife (who was teaching Sansa the High harp) who is concerned for her. I do think if she had married into the Tyrells, she would have been treated as a brood mare (to quote Cersei). Olenna Tyrell sounds like the mother-in-law from hell and it would be interesting to see if she even got to raise her own children. Marg certainly seems to be with her grandmother more than her mother.
Elba the Intoner, on 13 March 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:
However, I do think both Tywin and Tyrion were a little delusional about how the northerners would accept Tyrion and his son by Sansa once they tired of Greyjoy rule. While they are mostly very perceptive, they clearly do not have an understanding of the nature of the northerners. Does anyone really think that after everything the Lannisters have done to the Starks, the North would accept a Lannister child as their eventual liege lord just because his mother was Sansa Stark, especially once an event like the red wedding happened when it became pretty obvious that those behind the red wedding massacre (Boltons and Freys) were in cahoots with Tywin Lannister?
Indeed. Also any grandchild of Eddard Stark’s would also be a grandchild of Tywin Lannister. I cannot see the North accepting that bloodline at all. Also at this point, Tywin did not know about Stannis going North if I remember correctly. He also either mis-interpreted Northerners and their attitudes. While in today’s society I would hope people would not be prejudiced against someone with Dwarfism as a president or leader, it is evident that there is a huge social stigma in Westeros. Other houses considered the offer to marry a daughter to Tyrion an insult. This seems like it would be intensified in the north, where we saw in ACOK that other Northerners were saying Bran would be better dead. Also despite being the older boy, Manderley is going after Rickon, not Bran. The Northerners despise any form of weakness. Also they did not seem to take well to Tyrion’s jovial tone. It is a hard land in the North.
Thrice the Hound, on 13 March 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:
Tyrion is entitled to his bitterness that kind of treatment since birth cant make you anything but bitter and to expect him to rise above it like a pheonix out of the ashes when it comes to women is just unfair.
Samwell Tarly receives even worse treatment from his father and complete derision from other men and yet he is not bitter. Also he should realise that he is ugly and this may effect his chances with women. For example if it came to choosing between me and a supermodel, I think no matter how scintillating a personality I might have, most guys would go for the supermodel. Which is what Tyrion does with the choice between Lollys and Sansa.
Thrice the Hound, on 13 March 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:
What I don't understand is why everyone is so happy to forgive Sansa's attitude but not Tyron’s considering he wasn't responsible for her family's downfall and has been alive longer and suffered worse at the hand of his own family and the public in general.
But Tyrion has harmed her family and is continuing to do so by forcing her to marry him. Firstly he did a great thing by building the saddle for Bran, however he knows the reason that Bran is crippled is because his own brother Jaime tried to kill the boy. When he is taken to the Eyrie, he is resentful, despite knowing that the Starks have good cause to suspect the Lannisters of trying to silence Bran. He is covering up a crime. He also knows that his sister’s children aren’t her husbands, so he is complicit to treason. Although he thankfully saves Sansa from the savage beating at the hands of the KG, he has been Hand of the King for nearly 6 months and Sansa has been regularly beaten until then. He could have stopped it sooner. He is aware that his taking Winterfell depends on her brother being killed or permantently imprisoned. That is directly harming her family for his own gain and last but not least, he knows the Starks have the right of it and that Joff is not the true King, and yet supports him fully. He is indeed the greyest of grey characters.
voodooqueen126, on 14 March 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:
Hmn, I am not sure, I think that Tywin did indeed for Tyrion to rule Winterfell. I think Tywin (rightfully I am afraid) realised that having the Warden of the North being well Tyrion, would be a huge humiliation for the Northerners.
In Winterfell Tyrion would out of sight and out of mind and humiliating some other family (by filling Winterfell up with whores whilst Joffrey was allowed to turn Sansa into his plaything/Tywin had Sansa poisoned).
Indeed. Also given that Tywin himself talks to Tyrion about taking a child North, but not his wife, I think it is obvious that Tywin either expected her to remain a prisoner in KL or as you said she would have died in “childbed”, or some other excuse. Even Robb worked out they’d kill her as soon as she had a child and he wasn’t the brightest spark. The Hizdar / Dany poison incident and Alys fears about being murdered after she has a child, Genna wanting Edmure killed so they have control of the child and secure Riverrun, only confirm that this was probably the plan.
Woman of War, on 14 March 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:
I think that Tyrion was indeed convinced being the lesser catastrophe for Sansa, compared to the rest of the Lannister bunch. And part of his mind had the illusion that he could make things work,, subconsciously hoping for doing it right this time, not letting the next child-girl down like he did with Tysha. While being an abused child himself here I guess he personally felt even more guilt about the gang rape than we modern day readers, well informed about child abuse and manipulation of girls and boys all over the world, would accuse him of. And so he got the twisted idea to do it better this time, straight way into disaster.
With all due respect the text in no way supports any of the above. In fact it categorically states in his chapter, in his own thoughts that he wanted Winterfell. If he had thought the above, I would certainly think more highly of him, but he didn’t. He is also not 13 anymore, but a grown man who should take some responsibility for his decisions.
Woman of War, on 14 March 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:
And then I was shocked as reader: Sansa herself suggests that she might take her clothes off and Tyrion says: "You might as well do", both of them decided to get it over with the inevitable. Why was I so very shocked by that minor detail? No, Sansa does not feel pushed to do the deed because she fears for her life here, nor because she thinks Tyrion would force her anyway.
Apart from he had just made a joke in front of that entire wedding feast about how he was taking her off to
rape sleep with her. She thinks herself, what choice do I have? The girl was completely terrified and obviously did not want to do it, but given the fact that they were now married, she felt she had to, hence her reference to a lack of choice.
Woman of War, on 14 March 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:
She decides to AGREE in consummation because she perceives this as her duty now.
If you actually think by not saying outright that she didn’t want to sleep with him, that that equals consent, then I now understand why rape cases are so low in there conviction rate. I am truly appalled at that statement. A frightened terrified girl is led to a room by a man who has just joked about sleeping with her and she feels she has no choice and you think that equals consent?
Woman of War, on 14 March 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:
"She did not know what was expected of her. Should she open her legs for him?" this is so incredibly humiliating but part of that humiliation comes from the fact that Sansa is willing to go along with her own abuse because she thinks that by now Tyrion has a right do to the deed! She does not allow herself anymore to protest, to talk him out of it. Only when Tyrion stops himself and shows her a way out she masters some courage and refuses him not only for this time but forever. And the shocking thing for me was how very much Sansa is brainwashed by her perfect upbringing to go along with her society's expectations in being a lady and a good girl.
She has been told she will be wedded and bedded whether she wills it or not. She has been forced to go through with the marriage despite pleading with Joff, in front of Tyrion, that she didn’t want to. Why in the hell would she expect Tyrion to listen to her. He has already broken his vow to her regarding not harming her and sending her home and he did threaten in Court while dealing with Cleos that how well she was treated depended on Robb |(and this is whilst she was being beaten regularly). Why would she even expect any mercy from Tyrion? It’s not her upbringing, but her knowing as she said that she had no choice.
Woman of War, on 14 March 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:
And no, Tyrion is not the one who does the crime here. But he commits every mistake that can be done:
He talks about a former relationship that has gone wrong, he tells Sansa that he wants her, at the same time he tells her that this is basically wrong. And after he is aware that she is not going to put her courtesy armour away and he realizes that there is no way for them to reach each other emotionally he tries a lousy farce of seduction to get the dirty deed done somehow. I think he may have been technically aroused by the sight of Sansa but this was a mere physical response to a naked beautiful girl, he did not really desire her as a lover, at least not now anymore.
He is part of the forced marriage and knew about it in advance and there was plenty he could have done to avoid it. He has no problem defying his father about Shae. He could have got a secret message to the Tyrells etc. He is part of the group committing the crime: he’s not Tywin, but his hands are sure from clean.
Also he tells her he desires her. In his upcoming chapters he goes on about desiring her. It wasn’t a physical response alone, as he himself thinks and says he desires her. It is in the text.
Edited: For amazing spelling mistakes!
Edited by Rapsie, 14 March 2012 - 12:19 PM.
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