460 replies to this topic

[brashcandy]

Rapsie, on 15 March 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

I agree, and I have developed a hatred of the Tyrell ladies due to their abandonment of her, but I also think the previous posters make an interesting point about keeping the Lannisters sweet. Given their own playing of the game, I wonder if they thought Sansa had played them?

The lack of a Tyrell POV is a real shame!

Good point, Rapsie. Simply too much game-playing was going around, and when the fall out happened, the Tyrells retreated to their corner and left Sansa to deal with the mess. This is one of the reasons why I can never really support the Willas match, although Sansa at least made a conscious choice to go there and be happy. She was just another pawn in that particular game. Perhaps a more enlightened pawn, but still a pawn. Sansa's development into a player necessitated that plot falling through.

Thrice the Hound, on 14 March 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

I can only imagine the possibilities of the trouble the two of them could have caused for Tywin and Cersei if they stayed cool and played the game, it would have been epic to watch as their game unfolded (I for one would rather be learing the game from Tyrion that LF, because at least I know where I stand with Tyrion) but it was not to be.

I await your response then, TTH Just to be clear though: there was never a possibility of Tyrion and Sansa working together to cause trouble for Cersei and Tywin. While Tyrion might not have any love for his sister and father, he's still dependent on them for his livelihood. And his entire desire to get away from them meant going along with Tywin's plans (somewhat unknowingly) for the Red Wedding and marrying and bedding Sansa. Sansa hates Lannisters, and Tyrion is a Lannister. During the first three books Tyrion's loyalty, however grudgeful, was to his family. Now that he's fallen out with them, his loyalty is to himself. He remains a wholly unsuitable ally for Sansa.

[Elba the Intoner]

brashcandy, on 14 March 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Moving on.... In Tyrion's chapter we see that he still bears a lot of ill will towards Lysa Tully. I honestly think that the Vale could be one of the places Tyrion heads to on return to Westeros, either to repay his debt to Lysa and/or to reconnect with the mountain clans.

I've been thinking that this will be the case too, not only because of  the mountain clans, but the fact that LF is also there.  Tyrion has unfinished business with him too.

[Elba the Intoner]

I just thought of something else I want to say about Tyrion coming to the Vale upon his return to Westeros and it ties into to Brash's and Thrice the Hound's comments above.

I do believe that Sansa will be the one to take down LF in the end but if she has any help in it, or if she ends up not being the one to do so, then I think Tyrion will be involved in some way.  He has every reason to go back to the Vale to take care of unfinished  business, and he realizes that LF was behind the lies that caused him to be captured and taken to the Vale in the first place.

I also think GRRM had a good reason to bring Tyrion and Sansa together as husband and wife.  I think it's more than right now the marriage allowing Sansa some time before LF tries to marry her off to Harry the Heir.  Though right now the two are far apart, I could easily see Tyrion and Sansa eventually joining forces to take down LF, especially if Sansa figures out what he did to her father and Tyrion finds out that LF was behind framing him for Joff's murder.  Of course I don't know what will happen, but both of them have reason to hate LF so I think it's very possible.  So, Thrice the Hound you may still get your wish!

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Just pleaaase don't keep her married to Tyrion and forcing a lovefest between the two...it just wouldn't be believable

[Rapsie]

Christina Ceriddwynn, on 15 March 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

Just pleaaase don't keep her married to Tyrion and forcing a lovefest between the two...it just wouldn't be believable

We've already had that between Dany and Khal Drogo, and at least Khal Drogo hadn't been out to screw her family over and protect those who had tried to kill her brother....oh wait....Viserys. Well at least Bran wasn't Viserys.

But I agree. It would not be believable....unless that's how the mid-memory comes into play and she becomes delusional.

[Woman of War]

I do not want to annoy you all - ahem, I know I am just doing this - but if Martin wants to write Sansa and Tyrion together, it will be believable, otherwise it would not be published.  He is a rather good writer and I guess he would do a good job in that case as well. Even if people don't like or don't want to believe it at the present stage of the story they might have to digest it, even if Martin writes it as sweet as it is bitter. We can only lean back and wait ten years.

[Lyanna Stark]

Woman of War, on 15 March 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

I do not want to annoy you all - ahem, I know I am just doing this - but if Martin wants to write Sansa and Tyrion together, it will be believable, otherwise it would not be published.  He is a rather good writer and I guess he would do a good job in that case as well. Even if people don't like or don't want to believe it at the present stage of the story they might have to digest it, even if Martin writes it as sweet as it is bitter. We can only lean back and wait ten years.

This is true, but currently it seems very unlikely since the rift between house Lannister and house Stark is just too deep and too raw, especially after the Red Wedding, but also after the treatment of Sansa and the treachery with fake!Arya.

Perhaps during the next generation it can be mended, but I really can't see it happening with the current members of the houses. I can see Tyrion and Sansa tolerating eachother and possibly agreeing to cooperate up to a point, but there seems to be far too much bad blood there for it ever work out.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 15 March 2012 - 10:48 AM.

[brashcandy]

Woman of War, on 15 March 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

I do not want to annoy you all - ahem, I know I am just doing this - but if Martin wants to write Sansa and Tyrion together, it will be believable, otherwise it would not be published.  He is a rather good writer and I guess he would do a good job in that case as well. Even if people don't like or don't want to believe it at the present stage of the story they might have to digest it, even if Martin writes it as sweet as it is bitter. We can only lean back and wait ten years.

Martin is indeed a good writer, and that's why this outcome wouldn't be believable because he would be betraying his own narrative that establishes without a doubt that those two are incompatible and completely unsuited to one another. I'd have an easier time believing that Tyrion and Lollys will find true love after Bronn dies.

[Rapsie]

Woman of War, on 15 March 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

I do not want to annoy you all - ahem, I know I am just doing this - but if Martin wants to write Sansa and Tyrion together, it will be believable, otherwise it would not be published.  He is a rather good writer and I guess he would do a good job in that case as well. Even if people don't like or don't want to believe it at the present stage of the story they might have to digest it, even if Martin writes it as sweet as it is bitter. We can only lean back and wait ten years.

He may well have them end up together, but I don't think there is any way he could do this believably. He is an excellent writer but the story already has some terribly cliched and unfeasible elements. Whilst I liked the Arya of the early books for example and thought (apart from being Mis-aged) here arc is completely unbelievable. Similarly Tyrion's plot armour has become ridiculous as of ADWD. It's fine for you or anyone else to ship Ty/San, Pod/San, Marg/San etc. Personally given the build up in the text I would like her and Sandor to get together, but I also think it is unlikely to happen. Why? Because the elements of the story have been set up in a way where although they like each other, it would be very difficult for them to be involved with one another openly.

The point of this thread is doing a re-read of Sansa Stark. We are all reading the chapters and building up our analysis (which has revealed some interesting new things) of the character and possible future interactions. There is a hell of a lot of foreshadowing etc in these books. Whilst it does go off topic a little at times, we have mainly stuck to discussing the chapter we are on and how it relates to previous chapters and character growth: something Sansa is accused quite often of lacking, but has been seen quite clearly in these threads.

Lastly your own wish for Sansa and Tyrion to get together is not annoying. What I personally have found annoying is the sly digs and patronizing comments directed at posters who disagree with you, and the derogatory comments you have made about people who happen to like Sansa's character.  

I will put up the summary the next Tyrion Chapter later this evening which deals with his views of Sansa post wedding and a little bit about him, as it again comes into our analysis of future relationships that the character may have. We only ask that those joining us on this re-read, actually read the chapters concerned.

Edited by Rapsie, 15 March 2012 - 11:03 AM.

[Woman of War]

Quote

Lastly your own wish for Sansa and Tyrion to get together is not annoying. What I personally have found annoying is the sly digs and patronizing comments directed at posters who disagree with you, and the derogatory comments you have made about people who happen to like Sansa's character.

i do not see anything derogatory in what I wrote here, nothing, follow the posts back if you like, I myself am not willing to quote and requote myself. I was just mentioning the realities of book writing which are: making an at present very unlikely turn of events come true would take a lot of skill - and this might be precisely the challenge for the author.
I personally would, AT THE PRESENT STAGE of the story, prefer another, more adult and clever woman for Tyrion, if his story arc could ever take a romantic turn at all. But the author will ask neither you nor me.

[brashcandy]

Woman of War, on 15 March 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

i do not see anything derogatory in what I wrote here, nothing, follow the posts back if you like, I myself am not willing to quote and requote myself. I was just mentioning the realities of book writing which are: making an at present very unlikely turn of events come true would take a lot of skill - and this might be precisely the challenge for the author.
I personally would, AT THE PRESENT STAGE of the story, prefer another, more adult and clever woman for Tyrion, if his story arc could ever take a romantic turn at all. But the author will ask neither you nor me.

I personally find it hilarious and a bit suspect that someone who has professed countless times to really not liking the character of Sansa, turns up on a Sansa Stark re-read thread and right around the time her relationship with Tyrion is being discussed. Now, I'm not saying that only Sansa lovers can comment in this thread, but seriously WoW, now is the not the time to play trite given the nasty, and derogatory remarks you very well know you have made in the past about women who like Sansa.

[Rapsie]

Woman of War, on 15 March 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

i do not see anything derogatory in what I wrote here, nothing, follow the posts back if you like, I myself am not willing to quote and requote myself. I was just mentioning the realities of book writing which are: making an at present very unlikely turn of events come true would take a lot of skill - and this might be precisely the challenge for the author.
I personally would, AT THE PRESENT STAGE of the story, prefer another, more adult and clever woman for Tyrion, if his story arc could ever take a romantic turn at all. But the author will ask neither you nor me.

I didn't say you made the remarks in that post. You have continually done the things I mentioned Iin various post for the last 6 months, in multiple threads. Like I said in the post above, this is a Sansa re-read, not a Tyrion or shipping one. Stories follow a narrative pattern, and by and large foreshadowing and plot development have not gone way off base in this series. You are right though, GRRM could decide to have Dany die in the Dothraki Sea, for Jon to stay permanently dead etc but these things are unlikely because of the narrative. So yes Tyrion and Sansa may end up together, and there is even grounds for arguing cliched foreshadowing to that extent as far back as AGOT, however the analysis of the story that everyone has been doing currently puts them ending up together as improbable. Things may change in the next book, however if an author does an huge amount of foreshadowing and plot building in one direction for 5 books, then I personally think it is poor writing if a completely off base theory comes out of nowhere for the final book.

Sorry to everyone, as this is derailing the thread.

[Woman of War]

By Brashcandy:

Quote

I personally find it hilarious and a bit suspect that someone who has professed countless times to really not liking the character of Sansa, turns up on a Sansa Stark re-read thread and right around the time her relationship with Tyrion is being discussed. Now, I'm not saying that only Sansa lovers can comment in this thread, but seriously WoW, now is the not the time to play trite given the nasty, and derogatory remarks you very well know you have made in the past about women who like Sansa.

please note that it is definitely not me who has started to get personal here. You do not own this thread, everybody is free to post here. I was absolutely polite and you should stay the same.

I think all my posts were reasonable and absolutely going along with the topic. And if I happen to have a different opinion from yours there is still no reason to deny me the right to post here.
I thought this is a discussion thread, and discussion means DIFFERENT opinions, "like more" or "like less" are are nothing but positions in a debate and no offense. otherwise there would be no point in debating. I do not think posters wish other posters to worship their opinion here. I have read in this thread about as many opinions as there were posters so far and my opinion has a right to be one of them. If one of my posts here was derogatory, you are free to go to the mods and suggest to them that an opinion like mine is against forum rules. and by the way, you should precisely name which of my ideas is unwanted.
i would have thought this is a forum that follows democratic rules.

Edited by Woman of War, 15 March 2012 - 12:21 PM.

[brashcandy]

Sigh... back to the thread re-read everyone please. And like Rapsie, I apologize for the derail.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

AND....here I come with a slight derailment before we get to the next chapter....this has been bugging me, though.  I just don't know where to fit it in. (I APOLOGIZE FOR ANOTHER SIDE TOPIC)

Unreliable Narrator:

So Sansa remembers the Mob scene where she is nearly pulled from her horse. The man grabs her and she almost falls but then another stronger hand pushes her back on the saddle.

So......ASOS

Sandor is talking to Arya

..."well maybe it does, but I saved your sister's life, too. The day the mob pulled her off her horse, I cut through them and brought her back to the castle, else she would have gotten what Lollys Stokeworth got...."

She recounts almost being pulled off and he flat out says they DID pull her off.

so who is the unreliable one  (this bothers me as there is the Sansa lion claw sword thing...and the unKiss...seems to be a trend with her being unreliable)

Edited by Christina Ceriddwynn, 15 March 2012 - 12:36 PM.

[Rapsie]

brashcandy, on 15 March 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

Sigh... back to the thread re-read everyone please. And like Rapsie, I apologize for the derail.

Sigh, completely agree. As said in the original OP, this thread is about analyzing the character of Sansa Stark via a re-read of her chapters and important other POV excerpts that relate to her character development. We are putting up the chapter summaries and some analysis on Mondays and Thursdays. We ask that those contributing read the chapters in advance.

For those people who are new to the thread, please read through the previous threads and chapters if possible.

We are trying to analyse the character with the benefit of hindsight and also a fresh pair of eyes as it were, rather than reiterating already conceived ideas.

[brashcandy]

Christina Ceriddwynn, on 15 March 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

AND....here I come with a slight derailment before we get to the next chapter....this has been bugging me, though.  I just don't know where to fit it in. (I APOLOGIZE FOR ANOTHER SIDE TOPIC)

Unreliable Narrator:

So Sansa remembers the Mob scene where she is nearly pulled from her horse. The man grabs her and she almost falls but then another stronger hand pushes her back on the saddle.

So......ASOS

Sandor is talking to Arya

..."well maybe it does, but I saved your sister's life, too. The day the mob pulled her off her horse, I cut through them and brought her back to the castle, else she would have gotten what Lollys Stokeworth got...."

She recounts almost being pulled off and he flat out says they DID pull her off.

so who is the unreliable one  (this bothers me as there is the Sansa lion claw sword thing...and the unKiss...seems to be a trend with her being unreliable)

Hmm, interesting, but I'm not sure if it counts as a large enough discrepancy. Perhaps she really wasn't pulled completely off the horse, but it's just a technicality when he says that she was pulled off.

ETA: Also, it could highlight just how affected Sandor was when he saw she was in danger. He could be the one misremembering and imagining that she was on the ground

Edited by brashcandy, 15 March 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

I guess its the trend of slight mis-remembrances that gets me......

So if she is consistently unreliable....what is happening in the story that we don't know about?

Even if the memory lapses are minute and nothing more than a nuance...its a recurring trend

ETA: Perhaps it is Sandor but she also dreams about being pulled off the horse and kicked, etc....

Oh crap Im probably just thinking too much....its just makes me wonder how many other slips were missed and it its relevant or just...meh...

Edited by Christina Ceriddwynn, 15 March 2012 - 12:50 PM.

[Rapsie]

@ Christina Ceriddwynn

That's a really good quote. It could be as Brash said a difference of views, but given Sansa's ability to Mis-remember and the author making a point of her doing it with the sword name and the Unkiss, it could indeed be a mismemory. It would also explain why she was behind Sandor on the horse instead of infront: something that was discussed as a discrepancy on other threads.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

YES!  Arya always rode in front of him......

Just....while going through her chapters...we dissect everything and then I find something and makes me wonder if we should perhaps be dissecting Tyrion's chapters (for example) a bit more.....to find discrepancies.

I've wondered if she didn't remember the kiss initially because SHE kissed HIM.  He didn't kiss her...it was the other way around.
Now why he didn't mention that to Arya??  Well...he left out the dagger to the neck part so there is a good chance he thought she only kissed him out of threat and fear and was ashamed for it.

it's just a theory, though

Edited by Christina Ceriddwynn, 15 March 2012 - 01:02 PM.