165 replies to this topic

[Ednawolf]

Woman of War, on 13 March 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

But I get disappointed when the infatuation with that child  - she is thirteen !
And my faves are Tyrion, Arya and Daeneris and Cersei.  

You do realize that Dany is 13 when she is forced to marry, is raped repeatedly and impregnated by Khal Drogo, right?

Quote

Atlast we can agree on something.I hate Sansa chapters just as much as you,and whenever that bitch sweetrobin pops up i really wish sansa would throttle that bastard's neck and chuck him out of the moon door.
Seriously most of the chicks who like Sansa are ones who probably:1) Imagine themselves as her or 2) Cant wait to have a daughter like her...ugh

Um, yeah....  that's a really narrow-minded and insulting thing to say.  Sansa is in fact one of my favorites, but it's not because I (1) imagine myself as her or (2) can't wait to have a daughter like her.   I can only hope you were being facetious in that comment.

In addition to Sansa, my favorites of the unbeautiful variety are:

Sandor Clegane
Tyrion Lannister
Theon Greyjoy

And...
Samwell Tarly's Pink Mast   *snickers*

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Christina Ceriddwynn, on 14 March 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

lol well i have 2 daughters and i am glad they are each kind and compassionate and NOT murderers

but neither are they disney princesses

Arya is no murderer, she gives the gift of the many face god.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 14 March 2012 - 11:16 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Winterbreath, on 14 March 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

What is Sansa good for? Conciliation.
You want to keep the peace, you don't do it by killing people you disagree with, you do it by smiling and being nice.
Sansa is made to be a politician, she can hide her feelings much better than Arya, with all her FM training can.

Yes, that is definitely the lesson of this series.  You should never kill your enemies you should just smile and nod and wonder why they haven't fled to the free cities yet.  



“My father had a saying too. Never wound a foe when you can kill him. Dead men don’t claim vengeance.”
“Their sons do,” said Hoster, apologetically.
“Not if you kill the sons as well. Ask the Casterlys about that if you doubt me. Ask Lord and Lady Tarbeck, or the Reynes of Castamere. Ask the Prince of Dragonstone.”

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 14 March 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

*sigh*  the viewpoint of the Young Angry Male



(and yes im being silly so no offense)

Edited by Christina Ceriddwynn, 14 March 2012 - 09:25 PM.

[Maroucia]

Lord Littlefinger, on 14 March 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

And Sansa acts more like a Disney princess. It answers the question what if those characters were in a realistic period setting, nothing good.  Sansa is a waste of space.  If my 11 year old daughter was a magical ninja assassin, I would be proud.  No seriously, your kid got their greenbelt?  My daughter can slice off people's faces and use them as a disguise.  I would definitely send her after my enemies list.  What is Sansa good for, she's like one of those life sized Barbie dolls for Catelyn to play with and dress up.

That’s a little strong, don’t you think? You have the right not to like her and to be bored by her POVs, but other people obviously find her interesting. Where’s the waste then?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Maroucia, on 14 March 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

That’s a little strong, don’t you think? You have the right not to like her and to be bored by her POVs, but other people obviously find her interesting. Where’s the waste then?

Yes. That's fair.  Though I can't imagine why. She doesn't do anything.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Christina Ceriddwynn, on 14 March 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

*sigh*  the viewpoint of the Young Angry Male



(and yes im being silly so no offense)

Yes. Though, I'm hardly angry and barely young. I don't mind the aspects of Sansa's character that are sort of stereotypical of a fairy tale princess.  My problem is that, that's all there is.  Were she like Dacey Mormont or Lyanna I would be cool with that. I find Asha's hyper-sexuality a little annoying but even like that.  But really, lemmon cakes and tummies?  I adore Brienne. I couldn't stand people who talked about such when I was a child.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 14 March 2012 - 11:26 PM.

[The Wolfswood]

I didn't realize that compassion was such a bad quality to have.  Who knew that people don't want to be treated kindly and with compassion?  I sure didn't.  Sansa, as a character, is meant to be a direct mirror to Arya - there's a pair of lovely sequences in A Game of Thrones where GRRM illustrates this nicely.  In Arya's first chapter, it's brought up several times that she's resentful of her sister - because Sansa does everything so perfectly, she has her mother's coloration and features and not the long "horseface" that the Starks have.  It's never stated explicitly, but Arya wants to be Sansa, she just can't admit that.  She wants to look pretty and be praised, but she's not and she deals with that by being as different from Sansa as possible.  And then, in Sansa's first chapter, there's a scene where Arya tells Sansa about all the wonderful things she does with Mycah: riding around all day, exploring the area around the Trident, and looking at the scenary.  Sansa rejects this as being unladylike, as she's been brought up to, and disdains it even more because it's Arya and Arya ruins everything.for her.  And then, later, when Joffrey offers to be her escort for the day, they do all of those things: go riding, enjoy the scenary, find flowers, and Sansa loves it.  You can all this hypocrisy, if you really want to, but more than that, that's GRRM's way of telling us that these sisters aren't really all that different, they just act in opposite ways.

And their whole arcs continue to be mirrors: Sansa deals with the danger inside the court and Arya deals with it outside court.  Arya learns how to cut down her enemies with a blade, while being a faceless, nameless entity; Sansa is learning how to cut down her enemies using politics, while being out in the open for all to see.  And, unfortunately, Sansa doesn't get any magical, mystical powers; she learns how to use words and how to act.  It's a long process.  Much like how Arya is still only at the beginning of her training, so is Sansa.  

I hardly think Sansa is a bad character.  I enjoy seeing her grow up, watching as she comes to the realization that life really isn't a song, and the strength she starts to develop to cope with that.  Is it the kind of hack and slash stuff Arya does?  No, definitely not.  But then, I enjoy the series for both the court intrigue and the more action oriented sequences.  I hardly think her compassion is a bad thing.  It's like Jon Snow says in AGOT, the realm needs all kinds of people - you need knights and assassins, yeah, but you also need people like Sansa who do care.  And part of her arc, I think, is learning how to be a compassionate person and still live and survive.  And when all is said and done, the realm needs people like her to help it heal.

[Howling Mad]

Ser Ducan the Tall is my new favorite now that I have had the opportunity to read the Hedge Knight and the Sworn Sword.  Sorry Ned you were bumped to number two.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lord Littlefinger, on 14 March 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

Yes. Though, I'm hardly angry and barely young. I don't mind the aspects of Sansa's character that are sort of stereotypical of a fairy tale princess.  My problem is that, that's all there is.  Were she like Dacey Mormont or Lyanna I would be cool with that. I find Asha's hyper-sexuality a little annoying but even like that.  But really, lemmon cakes and tummies?  I adore Brienne. I couldn't stand people who talked about such when I was a child.

That means you like women who are like men, and can't stand women who are inside the traditional female role. Sansa is a highborn lady, she has been trained by Septa Mordane and others to be courtly, to like sweet stuff, songs and dream of gallant knights.

However, look at her last chapters as Alayne Stone and you'll something else coming through entirely. Of course, for the attentive reader, that was obvious already in ACOK, but for the less attentive reader, perhaps not. Still people who still claim she is a Disney princess by the end of AFfC probably don't watch enough Disney, nor do they analyse the roles and implications of Disney princesses particularly carefully. (FYI I am not looking forward to when my daughter want to watch that sexist crap that is Disney princess movies. Yuck.)

[Woman of War]

No, no Sansa bashing here (I have just found out in another thread  that evaluating a character I like a little less can be rather interesting) but Arya loving:

NOTHING martial, (theythg has mentioned already, I just saw)
in GOT at the trident Arya tells Sansa how much fun it is riding away from the others into the countryside:
"I have found 36 kinds of flowers I had never seen before". And Sansa dismisses her, riding is dirty and stupid and Arya should do her duty and sit with the Queen instead of exploring. arya has brought some flowers to Ned who smiles at her.
So much about Arya being an insensitive tomboy who has no eye for beauty?
Who is the sensitive one who enjoys beautiful things here??

Arya is dismissed by some posters as not being comparable to Sansa because, actually, she is no real woman.
This is awful, women - or girls - are everything, as Arya presents herself here.

Christina C., I have two sons, it would be interesting to know how women who are definitely beyond the fangirl or fanboy age, can emotionally relate to certain characters.  

Edited by Woman of War, 15 March 2012 - 03:04 AM.

[Buckwheat]

Lord Littlefinger, on 14 March 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

Yes. That's fair.  Though I can't imagine why. She doesn't do anything.

Then I suppose falling in love with Joffrey, lying to the king, telling Cersei about Eddard's plans, becoming her period, being kind to the women in the Red Keep, making one of the most dangerous and angry men show his gentle side, getting married to Tyrion telling him she would never want him, fleeing the city, almost getting raped by Marillion, taking care of her cousin and helping him to cross that bridge while overpowering her own fear and providing us with the valuable insight to what happens at court and at Littlefinger's is nothing?

[The Drunkard]

Buckwheat, on 15 March 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Then I suppose falling in love with Joffrey, lying to the king, telling Cersei about Eddard's plans, becoming her period, being kind to the women in the Red Keep, making one of the most dangerous and angry men show his gentle side, getting married to Tyrion telling him she would never want him, fleeing the city, almost getting raped by Marillion, taking care of her cousin and helping him to cross that bridge while overpowering her own fear and providing us with the valuable insight to what happens at court and at Littlefinger's is nothing?

Most of your list is just fluff to make her seem more interesting than she is, and the legitimate 'big' things she's been through aren't much when compared to what other characters have been through and the amount of times they have been through them.

[Winter's Lady]

The Drunkard, on 15 March 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

Most of your list is just fluff to make her seem more interesting than she is, and the legitimate 'big' things she's been through aren't much when compared to what other characters have been through and the amount of times they have been through them.

Shamelessly jumping in here.

So you're saying because she hasn't had to kill zombies, deal with a murderous bunch of rapists or live alone on a different continent that she's had it easy or that she's uninteresting? Oh boy Yeah, Sansa's life after Ned's death has just been a ray of sunshine.
This isn't a competition on who has the biggest pile of shit behind them. Sansa has had a difficult time, but in a different way.

[Lyanna Stark]

The Drunkard, on 15 March 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

Most of your list is just fluff to make her seem more interesting than she is, and the legitimate 'big' things she's been through aren't much when compared to what other characters have been through and the amount of times they have been through them.

Dude, she's got beaten and maltreated, almost ended up raped and killed in a riot, she was married off against her will to Tyrion, saw Joffrey murdered before her, realised she was being implicated in the murder (i.e. her life is forfeit if the Lannisters ever get their hands on her) and that she did, in fact, carry the murder weapon on her. She saw her aunt get murdered in front of her while almost losing her own life by being shoved out the Moon Door.

Sure, Sansa doesn't kill people herself, but neither does Davos really, or Samwell (except in certain circumstances). Are they boring characters too? What about Dany? She commands armies, but she rarely stabs people herself.

Sansa isn't Arya because she was never meant to be Arya. It feels like people are blaming Sansa for not being a tomboy, as if there is some golden rule that women in fantasy fiction should either be damsels in distress or tomboys wielding swords. It doesn't make Sansa's story any less engaging or interesting.

Lady of Oldcastle, on 15 March 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

This isn't a competition on who has the biggest pile of shit behind them. Sansa has had a difficult time, but in a different way.

Too true. All the characters have their metaphorical piles of shit they need to deal with. Some ger more direct action than others, while others get more of the intrigue and politics.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 15 March 2012 - 04:50 AM.

[voodooqueen126]

Lyanna Stark, on 15 March 2012 - 01:55 AM, said:

That means you like women who are like men, and can't stand women who are inside the traditional female role. Sansa is a highborn lady, she has been trained by Septa Mordane and others to be courtly, to like sweet stuff, songs and dream of gallant knights.

However, look at her last chapters as Alayne Stone and you'll something else coming through entirely. Of course, for the attentive reader, that was obvious already in ACOK, but for the less attentive reader, perhaps not. Still people who still claim she is a Disney princess by the end of AFfC probably don't watch enough Disney, nor do they analyse the roles and implications of Disney princesses particularly carefully. (FYI I am not looking forward to when my daughter want to watch that sexist crap that is Disney princess movies. Yuck.)

I know Disney princess's have magical helpers and in the case of Belle, Ariel, Jasmine and Tiana attempts are made to make them slightly more tomboyish and Mulan is completely tomboyish...
I don't know why Sansa should become tomboyish... I find those women who like men rather boorish myself...

[A Shadow]

Lady Kraken, on 14 March 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

If you don't want to talk about Sansa, don't put something negative about her in the title of your thread. That's just asking for trouble, as it would be with any other even moderately controversial character (Tyrion, Arya, Catelyn, Daenerys and the list goes on and on and on...). Someone's inevitably going to say something negative about her, and someone is inevitably going to respond to it.

The only thing I hinted at negatively at my first post is the way of "discussion" in here. I don not like Sansa, but it is very very near "I do not care about her". Do you think that is a negative thing to say politely? I opened a bar for dancing and I've got the "moral police" here saying I can not do this.

It might have been fine, if it were not the same words, sentences, arguments, some people here posted in hundreds of other threads.  It has infected this thread like a fungus. And many other threads.

The method of learning is observation. Next time I might post a link directing people back to their old and same discussion. It might not work, but there should be some escape route.

[Lyanna Stark]

voodooqueen126, on 15 March 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

I know Disney princess's have magical helpers and in the case of Belle, Ariel, Jasmine and Tiana attempts are made to make them slightly more tomboyish and Mulan is completely tomboyish...
I don't know why Sansa should become tomboyish... I find those women who like men rather boorish myself...

Yes, precisely, and on top of that, it's how the Disney princesses to be happy have to marry a prince (or similar). On their own, they have no value, their quest is to get married = happiness, fulfillment and the reason for life.

It irks even more when Sansa is compared to a Disney princess, since what she is trying to get away from is the backwards reactionary notion that a woman's path leads only to a fairy tale marriage wherein she needs to be taken care of by her gallant husband and only exist to decorate his side. Of course, in Westeros reality is far, far removed from this, which is exactly what her character arc is about. The piercing of lies and the astute assessment of reality.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 15 March 2012 - 05:59 AM.

[only me]

I like Sansa and Arya both (I must be a freak of nature). What I like about them is that they have good survival instincts. Sure, they have different methods, not everybody has to be swordfighter (there are enough of those in the books anyway). But they want to live and they do survive even without suporting friends, as the Stark men are, well, slightly suicidal (I hope little Rickon proves to be different). At the moment the Sansa`s situation intrigues me more than Arya`s. But Arya chapters in ASOS are my absolute favorite.
I just want them to grow up so I could like them more. I cannot relate to children much.

[Rapsie]

A Free Shadow, on 15 March 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

It might have been fine, if it were not the same words, sentences, arguments, some people here posted in hundreds of other threads.  It has infected this thread like a fungus. And many other threads.

The method of learning is observation. Next time I might post a link directing people back to their old and same discussion. It might not work, but there should be some escape route.

The problem is that there are many characters in the series who evoke a strong reaction: namely Tyrion, Cersei, Catelyn, Sansa and Dany. By putting any of their names in the title of the thread, it is like holding a red rag to a bull for both those groups of people who regularly espouse the negative and positive views on a particular character.  If you don't like a character, that's fine and does fit with the OP, but to put it in the title thread will suggest that that particular character will be referenced in particular.


Personally I like Pod as he is a sweet boy and like Brienne, tries to be honourable. I also rather liked Ser Hyle too. Delourous Edd is again a great character, as is Tormund Giantsbane.

Edited by Rapsie, 15 March 2012 - 06:53 AM.