193 replies to this topic

[A Shadow]

I have been thinking that it was absolutely a sad story of great love. But now I start to doubt if Lyanna wasn't held against her will and if she even went off with him willingly. Set me right again

My reasons:

It was an inexplicable amount of time for Rhaegar and Lyanna not to come back to Kings Landind or another (safer, but still public) place and try to ease the tensions. Lyanna was fierce and loyal and a fighter, so she could not just have left everything go as it might. It was time for her to hear about her brother being held captive (and try to save him), about Brandon and Rickard dying and Eddard being hunted, about Arryn choosing to rebel. It is very much inconsistent with her character. So maybe she wasn't allowed to go anywhere? And to add to this point, maybe Rhaegar did not trust anyone else with guarding her properly and stuck around himself not going back to the KL for this very reason? He was obsessed with the prophecy and had to have her secure.

Another one is Eddard's dream/memory about her pleading with him to save Jon (as we all assume). No matter what had happened, she should have known that he would not harm a child she had with a man she loved. So maybe she was fearing Eddard would not care for the life of the child born when his sister was taken against her will.

I have picked up on the clues that Lyanna might have found Rhaegar interesting when they first met, maybe they had a good moment when he found her out as a Knight of a Laughing Tree. Maybe Rhaegar read more than there was into it and really kidnapped her. Or maybe she even went off with him, but later was held against her will.

What do you say?

[Independent George]

It's a distinct possibility, but we really have no way of knowing. One of the things that I've always wondered about is how she reacted to learning of Brandon and Rickard's deaths. Even if you place the full blame on Aerys (and I do), she and Rhaegar would both have to have been burdened with quite a bit of guilt and responsibility over it. Even if they were in love, they had to have understood how reckless and irresponsible they were acting.

What can Rhaegar possibly say to Lyanna when her father murders her father & brother in such horrific fashion, then demanded the rest of her family to follow suit? What can she say when her oldest remaining brother raises the banners, and Rhaegar rides off to stop him?

[Dracarya]

Maybe she didn't know about her father and brother. Locked up or no, Rhaegar might have wanted to spare her the pain and his guards wouldn't talk without his permission, especially if she was being kept there against her will. I don't see her sitting meekly by and letting someone drag her across the kingdom, lock her in a tower, rape her and get a baby on her. He couldn't have had a huge guard, as he would have been noticed, and surely someone would have noticed a woman screaming and struggling, as I can only presume Lyanna would have done? Of course I base this on the fact that Arya wouldn't stand for it, and the similarities we've been told about between the two, but that's my view. What got you doubting it?

[Apple Martini]

I still think it was consensual. And I consider her staying locked up against her will to be inconsistent with her character.

Remember that, going on the prevailing wisdom, for most of her tenure at the Tower, Lyanna would have been pregnant. You can infer that seeing as it killed her, it might have been a difficult pregnancy. Meaning, her mobility — maybe even around the keep, let alone crossing hundreds of miles — would have been nil. So the fact that she didn't go anywhere doesn't necessarily point to her being held against her will. I tend to think that, grieved as she would have been, she didn't blame Rhaegar for it and also realized that there wasn't much she could do in her condition. We also don't know if she and Rhaegar had some agreement over what would happen to Ned if/when he was captured or it/when the rebels lost. At face value, it looks like she sat back and let everyone keep on fighting, but it wouldn't surprise me if she negotiated with Rhaegar for her family to be granted clemency at the end.

And I don't think Lyanna could have taken for granted that Ned wouldn't have hurt Jon, given his loyalty to Robert and what Aerys did to their father and brother.

Robert's insistence on the affair being a kidnapping-and-rape job should also be a clue that it was anything but.

Edited by Apple Martini, 13 March 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[Lady Octarina]

I think it was all consensual. I think it's either they were both irresponsible and selfish in their actions, or Rhaegar managed to convince her about the prophecy somehow and they both thought they were acting for the greater good of Westeros in locking themselves up in that tower.

Either way, I doubt the news of Brandon and Rickard got to them on time. First, because they could still be on their way south when that happened; and second because, well... even if they did get the news on time (but probably only after Rickard arrived as well), Rhaegar knew his father well enough to be sure that it would be pointless to go to KL at that time, they would both be dead when they arrived.

[Lady Octarina]

double post, sorry.

Edited by Lady Octarina, 13 March 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[Mr Stereo1]

There's not much to go on in the books, but I would imagine that a crown-prince would be able to take an unwilling woman across the kingdom without being stopped as long as he was careful. Once he had her at the Tower, presumably under a guard with at least one Kingsguard present at all times, Rhaegar would have effectively controlled the information she had access to. While the fact that Ned didn't agree with Robert's assessment of the situation implies that there was more to the situation than otherwise known, I don't think that a sister he cared about as much as he seemed to would be willing to willingly, or knowingly, instigate a war which kills hundreds of thousands, including her family members, to avoid a miserable marriage.

[A Shadow]

Fire&Blood, on 13 March 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

What got you doubting it?

I am not sure. I had this uniform feeling similar stories induce (very sad, but love so great, a child is born, all will be well), until I really thought about Lyanna, all wrecked laying there, dying, pleading. And I could not understand how she got there, why she was stuck there.

Apple Martini, on 13 March 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Remember that, going on the prevailing wisdom, for most of her tenure at the Tower, Lyanna would have been pregnant.

[...]

Robert's insistence on the affair being a kidnapping-and-rape job should also be a clue that it was anything but.

I thought about her being pregnant, but Brandon was at KL immediately  after they ran off and was held captive for some time (which was needed for Rickard to arrive from as far as Winterfell). So Lyanna and Rhaegar were both not very far and able to do what they considered needed to be done. And I can not think of Lyanna leaving her brother in danger. Possibly the raven mail could be blamed, I don't know.
ETA: This whole affair is irresponsible throughout, but I find it even harder to believe that Rhaegar would not dispatch some riders/spies to the KL, to know what is going on and get news as soon as possible.

Yes, Robert's insistance on one thing really points into a different direction Makes me more hopeful.

Edited by A Free Shadow, 13 March 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[Ygrain]

As for Lyanna - and Rhaegar - not doing anything about Brandon being imprisoned: it is well possible they didn't even know, until it was too late to do anything about it. We do not know where they were, and what means of contact they had with KL, if any. I think their idea of dealing with the consequences of the "abduction" was to stay put until the fuss subsides, only it never did.

After Rickard and Brandon were dead and Jon Arryn rebelled, my guess is that they HAD to stay in hiding, to protect Lyanna. Aerys would definitely want to use her as hostage against Ned and Robert, and given what a psycho he was, he might have wanted her killed, as well. Meaning, neither Rhaegar nor any KG he had with him could not go to KL, since Aerys would command them to reveal her whereabouts, and they would have to obey. By that time, Lyanna was probably already pregnant, which probably meant she can't have travelled anywhere. Rhaegar went out of the hiding only at the end of the Rebellion, prior Trident, when it became obvious that this would be a decisive battle. As we know, he hinted that he intended to do some changes after his return, which most probably would be deposing Aerys and taking the crown - which would put him in the position to pardon Ned.

[Apple Martini]

A Free Shadow, on 13 March 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

I thought about her being pregnant, but Brandon was at KL immediately  after they ran off and was held captive for some time (which was needed for Rickard to arrive from as far as Winterfell). So Lyanna and Rhaegar were both not very far and able to do what they considered needed to be done. And I can not think of Lyanna leaving her brother in danger. Possibly the raven mail could be blamed, I don't know.

You're assuming that they even had the news in a timely fashion at all.

[Revan Baratheon]

Rhaegar was prophecy obsessed i know,but lyanna? If she is anything like Arya in terms of personality-then definetly no.I agree with Apple martini,that if it was consensual,then it must have been her pregnany and illness that kept her cooped up inside the tower.
But honestly the best R+L could do was run away and fuck in ToJ. i mean,they honestly thought there wont be any repurcussions? Atleast lyanna and rhaegar could have done it quietly(like jaime and cersei) in a inn near harrenhal(during the tourney time) or something..instead of running away in some elaborate fasion.And then not turning up when everyone starts looking for them until well into the war.....like seriously?? Their "epic love" was fucking stupid

[Revan Baratheon]

Rhaegar should have taken lyanna as his mistress and fuck buddy and had secret affair with her(like jaime and cersei did) like aegon 4 did.Bastard Jon would be a "great bastard" and the realm would have 10k people more.

Edited by Revan Baratheon, 13 March 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[Hornfoot Manicurist]

Apple Martini, on 13 March 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Remember that, going on the prevailing wisdom, for most of her tenure at the Tower, Lyanna would have been pregnant. You can infer that seeing as it killed her, it might have been a difficult pregnancy. Meaning, her mobility — maybe even around the keep, let alone crossing hundreds of miles — would have been nil.
<snip>

You absolutely cannot infer from the fact that she died in childbirth that her pregnancy was difficult.  A very easy pregnancy can still have a very difficult, life-risking delivery depending on how the baby is turned, your pelvis, infection, etc. After a very easy pregnancy, I could have lost my son because my pelvis was too small for him to pass through - Thank God for modern medicine.

A pregnant person is not an invalid. It's completely unreasonable to assume at this point that just because she was pregnant, even very far along in her pregnancy, that her movement was in any way hindered.  Lyanna was not a sickly person and was quite fit/athletic, so we have no reason to assume she didn't have a very healthy pregnancy that allowed her to do almost anything she did before becoming pregnant. Just because you're carrying a baby doesn't mean you're suddenly made of glass.

[Ygrain]

Mr Stereo1, on 13 March 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

There's not much to go on in the books, but I would imagine that a crown-prince would be able to take an unwilling woman across the kingdom without being stopped as long as he was careful. Once he had her at the Tower, presumably under a guard with at least one Kingsguard present at all times, Rhaegar would have effectively controlled the information she had access to. While the fact that Ned didn't agree with Robert's assessment of the situation implies that there was more to the situation than otherwise known, I don't think that a sister he cared about as much as he seemed to would be willing to willingly, or knowingly, instigate a war which kills hundreds of thousands, including her family members, to avoid a miserable marriage.

I don't think Lyanna, or even Rhaegar himself, could have foreseen what would follow. I don't think they expected anything else but a profound scandal, which would finally be smoothed by lands and titles and whatever compensations it would take. Note please that Rickard himself never called his banners - not after Lyanna was "abducted", not after his son was imprisoned for treason and he himself was summoned to answer for that. Only Ned and Robert did, and that only after Jon Arryn rebelled first,  after their head were requested. There is no fighting following directly after the abduction.

A Free Shadow, on 13 March 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

I thought about her being pregnant, but Brandon was at KL immediately  after they ran off and was held captive for some time (which was needed for Rickard to arrive from as far as Winterfell). So Lyanna and Rhaegar were both not very far and able to do what they considered needed to be done. And I can not think of Lyanna leaving her brother in danger. Possibly the raven mail could be blamed, I don't know.

We do not know how "immediately" Brandon got to KL - it certainly takes a couple of days from near Riverrun. We do not know how fast - and how - he got the news. We do not know where Lyanna was at the time of the supposed abduction. I would estimate that we are talking here about weeks, not days.
Now, the ravenmail. Not sure how ravens work, since they are supposed to be more intelligent, but pigeon mail is based on the instinct that brings the bird to its home. Meaning, if you want to send a message to Winterfell, you have to have a bird born and grown at Winterfell. You can't send it anywhere else, and the mesage won't reach a person who is currently somewhere on the road between the locations.
All in all, I'd bet that Lyanna and Rhaegar learned only when it was too late.

[A Shadow]

Apple Martini, on 13 March 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

You're assuming that they even had the news in a timely fashion at all.

I edited my upper post to add a little, but too late. That was it: "

This whole affair is irresponsible throughout, but I find it even harder to believe that Rhaegar would not dispatch some riders/spies to the KL, to know what is going on and get news as soon as possible". And I add that Lyanna simply needed to know what would go on. If she was anything like Arya, she would have made Rhaegar promise at swordpoint that he would sure learn things and inform her.

Ygrain, on 13 March 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

I don't think Lyanna, or even Rhaegar himself, could have foreseen what would follow. I don't think they expected anything else but a profound scandal,

We do not know how "immediately" Brandon got to KL - it certainly takes a couple of days from near Riverrun.

But Lyanna knew her brother was wildly fierce and easy to irritate. That her father was no easy person too. That Robert and Baratheons were no easy people. She might have left the message, but she could not have hoped anything go smoothly. And find it hard to believe (now) that she just turned blind on it and did not simply need to know what will happen. Rhaegar was very well educated too. And the bigger part of the education is "know the other nobles".  So he knew Brandon, Rickard, Robert too.

It might have been days, but if Rickard had time to arrive from Winterfell, than Lyanna would have been able to arrive (send a raven or anything) from where she was.

[DoctorSwerve]

Lyanna loved Rhaegar - True love blinds reason.

[James Smith]

Lyanna was young, foolish, and selfish when she ran away (if consensual) and Rhaegar also, then Brandon was rash, cocky, and dumb by IMMEDIATELY riding to KL and asking for the prince to come die.  Seems to me that Ned and Benjen were the only responsible Starks and definetely the best leaders so it was right that they survived.  

Just out of curiosity, did Aerys demand Benjen's hed also? I do not remember reading it and to me it would not make since to demand for Ned's and not Benjen.  The two were just as innocent as the other and if the king wanted to wipe out the starks he needed to kill benjen also, again just wondering

[James Smith]

head not hed

[Sun]

I don't think there's any way to tell one way or the other considering how little we know about the characters of both Rhaegar and Lyanna, but given the scant available evidence, and my own biases ofcourse, I'm inclined to think that it wasn't consensual, at least, not in the beginning. I won't argue the point, however, because... really, I could as easily be wrong as right.

Edited by Sun, 13 March 2012 - 01:49 PM.

[Ygrain]

A Free Shadow, on 13 March 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

I edited my upper post to add a little, but too late. That was it: "

This whole affair is irresponsible throughout, but I find it even harder to believe that Rhaegar would not dispatch some riders/spies to the KL, to know what is going on and get news as soon as possible". And I add that Lyanna simply needed to know what would go on. If she was anything like Arya, she would have made Rhaegar promise at swordpoint that he would sure learn things and inform her.

After the whole affair started, Aerys started to search for Rhaegar and nobody seemed to know where he had gone. If anyone did know, it must have been only a limited number of people, such as whose loyalty was beyond question, and they had to act carefully, since KL was already full of Varys' spies, who was acting against Rhaegar. Thus, news from KL were bound to be late, and scarce. As for dispatching spies to KL - sorry but Rhaegar didn't seem to have a network of inconspicuous spies, and people who were at his service must have been pretty famous faces. Do you think that Varys' spies wouldn't know immediately if any of them came back to KL? Again: Rhaegar's means to learn news from KL were veyr limited.

A Free Shadow, on 13 March 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

But Lyanna knew her brother was wildly fierce and easy to irritate. That her father was no easy person too. That Robert and Baratheons were no easy people. She might have left the message, but she could not have hoped anything go smoothly. And find it hard to believe (now) that she just turned blind on it and did not simply need to know what will happen. Rhaegar was very well educated too. And the bigger part of the education is "know the other nobles".  So he knew Brandon, Rickard, Robert too.

Being educated does not not necessarily involve being able to predict people's reactions. My guess is that Lyanna did leave a message, and Brandon either didn't know (he may have learned about the abduction from another source), or chose to ignore it, in a way she did not foresee.

A Free Shadow, on 13 March 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

but if Rickard had time to arrive from Winterfell, than Lyanna would have been able to arrive (send a raven or anything) from where she was.

Rickard may have already been on his way to Riverrun, i.e. much closer.  There is absolutely no telling where Lyanna was at that time and what means of communication she had. We do not know if she and Rhaegar headed for ToJ from the very beginning, they could have taken a long romantic detour via Summerhall, and find some very late news weeks to months later.