58 replies to this topic

[Victarions Secret]

Presuming, that Jon is Lyannas and Rhaegars son; why would he be Jon Targaryan? Do we know from somewhere that Lyanna and Rhaegar actually married? Because, if they didn't, he's an illegitimate son. Still Jon Snow, with no legit claim for any throne in the world. And even if he were a Targ, who can prove it? Some claim that Howland Reed might sit on some info about it, but else than him all other people that might have knowledge of this is dead. And who will believe one man? Especially a crannogman, who seems to me to be distrusted be most people.

Would it even matter if he's a real Targ? Would it change anything?

[Peach Fuzz]

This is a good point and one i think people overlook when the R + L = J theory is talked about.
I think it wont matter, he may be the rallying point for all folk those from the north because of his Stark heritage and those that are loyal to the targs.

Edited by The Bastards Bastard, 14 March 2012 - 06:27 AM.

[Free Northman]

Point 1:
If he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna it will be meaningless unless he is legitimate, else he is just a different bastard - a Sand instead of a Snow.

Point 2:
It is pretty much confirmed by now that he is without a doubt the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Therefore, Point 1 applies.

Conclusion:
Rhaegar and Lyanna were secretly married and Jon is the heir to the Iron Throne.

I trust that settles the matter.

Edited by Free Northman, 14 March 2012 - 06:27 AM.

[Winter's Lady]

Kingsguard at TOJ. He's legit. Now proving that is a different matter...

[CardMaster24]

There is barley any way to prove it

I actually don't see how it will be possible to prove

[Black Crow]

Makes no odds whether he's legit or not. If R+L=J and if he wants the Iron Throne he'll have to fight for it. Even if the Frog-Eater (or anybody else) is believed nobody's going to turn around and says, oops, sorry - here's your father's crown, I'm afraid we've made a bit of a mess of your kingdom, but its all yours, all hail Jon, first of his name etc etc...

[alienarea]

Also, he's probably dead.

[Black Crow]

And I doubt if he wants the iron throne anyway

[The Swaggering Bravo]

They could have been married at the Tower of Joy. Otherwise, Jon wouldn't be the heir and it wouldn't make any sense that Oswell, Gerold, and Arthur were guarding them.

[Free Northman]

Black Crow, on 14 March 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

Makes no odds whether he's legit or not. If R+L=J and if he wants the Iron Throne he'll have to fight for it. Even if the Frog-Eater (or anybody else) is believed nobody's going to turn around and says, oops, sorry - here's your father's crown, I'm afraid we've made a bit of a mess of your kingdom, but its all yours, all hail Jon, first of his name etc etc...

Daenerys might.

[thetitansbastard]

Black Crow, on 14 March 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

Makes no odds whether he's legit or not. If R+L=J and if he wants the Iron Throne he'll have to fight for it. Even if the Frog-Eater (or anybody else) is believed nobody's going to turn around and says, oops, sorry - here's your father's crown, I'm afraid we've made a bit of a mess of your kingdom, but its all yours, all hail Jon, first of his name etc etc...

Precisely.

[thetitansbastard]

Free Northman, on 14 March 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

Daenerys might.

Maybe if he gives birth to 4 dragons amidst a sea of flames

[The Drunkard]

Free Northman, on 14 March 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

Daenerys might.

And that means about as much as Howland Reed. She is in no position, militarily or politically, to be crowning anyone.

[Lyanna Stark]

The Swaggering Bravo, on 14 March 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

They could have been married at the Tower of Joy. Otherwise, Jon wouldn't be the heir and it wouldn't make any sense that Oswell, Gerold, and Arthur were guarding them.

Precisely this.

Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy of "three heads has the dragon" yet his wife Elia was sickly and could not carry any more children. Enter Lyanna, who could. Targaryens have in the past practised polygamy, so it would not be an unheard of situation, although probably not wholly accepted either.

Without Jon being the heir to the realm, there is no reason the Kingsguard would have been positioned outside as their task is to guard the king. Ned even asked them something similar but they evade the question.


This also makes Ned's angst all the more real, since just hiding his sister's bastard by Rhaegar from Robert should not be something that upsets him so much (albeit it is upsetting in itself, but not to that level). Hiding the true heir of the realm and pretending he is Ned's own bastard tho, ouch. For an honourable man like Ned, that's some serious lying right there. The honourable thing to do would have been to hand Jon the crown, or even if Ned decided to go with Robert, to hand baby Jon over to Robert, who would certainly have seen him killed. This is a marvellous double betrayal, in a way.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 14 March 2012 - 07:27 AM.

[Ragnar Of The North]

I'm pretty convinced that they did marry, but even if they didn't, Jon could probably still make a claim to the throne somehow if he wanted.

[Free Northman]

thetitansbastard, on 14 March 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

Maybe if he gives birth to 4 dragons amidst a sea of flames

Or if a Valyrian glass candle shows her the entire scene at the Tower of Joy
Or if Quaithe reveals to her Jon's true parentage
Or if she sees it in a Targaryen psychic vision
Or if all three Dragons bow down before Jon
Or, or, or.

The point is while the realm is fractured Jon cannot possibly convince everyone of his legitimacy, except through force of arms.

But if the realm is united under an absolute ruler - Daenerys - then he doesn't need to convince everyone. He just needs to convince her.

[Rune Targaryen]

The Swaggering Bravo, on 14 March 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

They could have been married at the Tower of Joy. Otherwise, Jon wouldn't be the heir and it wouldn't make any sense that Oswell, Gerold, and Arthur were guarding them.

Not necessarily, Rhaegar could mean to legitimize the baby after, but his dying got in the way.
And the KL could be there because he ordered them.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Rune Targaryen, on 14 March 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Not necessarily, Rhaegar could mean to legitimize the baby after, but his dying got in the way.
And the KL could be there because he ordered them.

Rhaegar doesn't have that much control over them, and why would they guard a future heir when Viserys and Dany were on Dragonstone? And yes, dying tends to get in the way.

[Lyanna Stark]

The Swaggering Bravo, on 14 March 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

Rhaegar doesn't have that much control over them, and why would they guard a future heir when Viserys and Dany were on Dragonstone? And yes, dying tends to get in the way.

Because Rhaegar's son will inherit before Dany and Viserys, that is why.

[Patchface Is AA Reborn]

Rune Targaryen, on 14 March 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Not necessarily, Rhaegar could mean to legitimize the baby after, but his dying got in the way.
And the KL could be there because he ordered them.

The KG are sworn to the king not Rhaegar. They protect the king wherever he may be. The 3 knights  were the most honorable men of the KG save Selmy. They knew that Aerys and Rhaegar were dead and that Viserys was on Dragonstone. They remained at the Tower to protect their newborn king not a order Rhaegar gave them. I do agree that Rhaegar could have meant to publicly Legitimize Jon after squashing the rebellion

Edited by King Patchface 2012, 14 March 2012 - 07:42 AM.