OnionAhaiReborn, on 16 March 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:
@ ed Lannister You have yet to tell me how it is fair to say that 'Stark honor' plunged the realm into war for 30 years (now you're even laying the War of Ninepenny Kings on them!), when in the two most recent examples of war the Starks have been defending themselves. You can feel free to explain to me whenever you want why you think the Starks were required to take the punches that were being thrown at them by the Mad King and then the Lannisters without responding, and why you think that by responding to the aggression of the Mad King and then the Lannisters, the Starks are the ones who plunged the realm into war. The only thing you come back to is Brandon Stark. When Brandon goes to King's Landing and calls out Rhaegar, he is being foolish. He gets himself killed. But then after that, the Mad King calls for the heads of Ned and Robert- that's when the war starts. Brandon goes because Rhaegar has taken Lyanna. You're looking at one link in the causal chain- Brandon going to King's Landing- and saying that one link is the cause of the war, and therefore is an example of 'Stark honor' plunging the realm into war. You need to come up with more to back up your claim that 'Stark honor' has plunged the realm into war over the last 30 years. As bothered as you are about the parts of your argument I choose to respond to, you have yet to respond to the core of my argument: the Starks were defending themselves against aggression in the last two major wars in Westeros. Do me a favor and don't accuse me of failing to be objective when you're not providing any support to back up your own claims. I have nothing more to say to you unless you have anything more to add about why you think the Starks were wrong to defend themselves. Also, if you used some punctuation it might make the points you are trying to make a little more clear for me.
i did not state they caused the ninepenny kings war but rather gave a timeframe from that war up to ADWD and to expound in detail my pov where "starks honor" cause war in westeros
starks were never fond of the targs but only submitted to their authority when they were overmatched with a superior military but are a proud family of a line of kings longer than any other great house in the kingdom and in MY POV their pride must have been the most wounded of the great houses.....over the reign of the targs they kept mostly to themselves and i have yet to come across any stark family member getting involved in supporting any targ during the dance of dragons or any side either challenging the targ rule (blackfyres) but only come to play during roberts rebellion which in my POV think the starks never held the targs in any esteem since their submission and haboured ambitions to be kings or return the family’s prestige as it was be4 the targ invasion again something they must have
instilled in their descendants for subsequent generations and would have grabbed the chance if it presented itself to be kings again or have an association by an alliance with a king they preffered.
to stick to my 30 yr timeframe approx starting with the ninepennykings war...targs rule in westeros was dealt a huge blow when they lost many family members in a fire tragedy(summerhall) somehow they still had the rule in westeros but many thought the targs were weak at that point in history and the last of the known blackfyres made a play for the chance to rule but was defeated.However the targs lost the king(jaehearys ) afterwards and at the time the last targ king(aerysII) to ascend to the throne was crowned....Another big blow fell to the targs power when steffon baratheon died in a shipwreck when he was coming back from an assignment to find a wife for the crown prince rheagar...the baratheon/targ relationship was pretty tight and even stannis recollects when their father was a frequent visitor to the court and several important tasks such as finding a wife for the crown prince was bestowed on him.At this point in history the targ king aerysII had pretty done much to secure his kingdom he had the backing of lannisters under tywin/baratheon/tyrells(lothor tyrell) and after steffon baratheon died he sort to cement their power by bringing dorne(martell) in by marriage...some like tywin hoped for such a marriage to bring the lannister in the royal family but i assume the king had other ways of securing the future of targs rule and hoped by his actions targ rule will be cemented with 5 great houses lannister/baratheon/martell/targarean/tyrell.......
GRRM has stated westeros is a fuedal society and after the threat of the ninepenny kings aerys Aerys II had done pretty well for his rule and the kingdom was thriving,with an exceptional hand(tywin) holding the post everything seemed to go well for the king....but to the other inland houses tully/starks/arryn being left out would have not sat well with any of them especially the starks/arryns/tullys it might not have been received well being left out.. and in my POV ,i think aerys maybe probably realised this and as the uncle to robert probably sort to placate the arryns coz they had a pretty good targ relationship with them by fostering robert a baratheon with possible future marriage in the cards with an arryn lady.this leaves the tully and starks out of whatever the king was doing to cement the targ power......
Still within my 30yrs timeframe i will jump to the starks and i will start with rickard stark i consider him an ambitious man who to me tried to have the starks become kings or have the starks as a powerhouse in the running of westeros.....we never got to have a POV rickard stark but get to learn of his actions which are familiar to many ,of his 4 known chldren, he betrothed his son and daughter to other great houses(tully and baratheon) and fostered another son to (arryns) and gave the last son to the night's watch according to the stark traditions. His actions if you note Mostly in westeros is done by the nobility to secure family heritage,seek alliances and to dig deep into it i will try and bring
the actions of the king aerys(II) and rickard in a parallel timeline where their actions run together or in tandem .
aerys in my opinion was the best person to match robert’s fostering and marriage if we can agree we are on the same page that it's the family members who do it and coz robert had targareans blood in him my pick is that it was aerys who instructed him to be fostered with the arryns.Meanwhile rickard of all of the starks in generations after targs landed decides that in order not to lose his chance to bring starks back to the glory days tries something to bring his ambitions to fruition he decides to make a decision to foster one of his son’s to the jon arryn and it goes well……
years go by and the king and lords children are growing up others reach ages where betrothals are formalized into official marriages and the younger especially males are sent out to be fostered. Rheagar marrys a martell so the king has cemented his alliance lannisters/baratheons/martell/targareans/tyrell alliance on rickards side however things are not so rosy so he decides to approach a match for his heir Brandon to catelyn tully and it works for him so a stark/tully alliance is formed but some in the north who had hoped to match to the heir to the north such as the ryswells are disappointed. The wild card jon arryn has not made any strong match despite his marriages suffering deaths of his children and wife but has both relationships to targs and starks by fostering ned and and Robert…Further years pass and younger kids grow up and jon arryn suffers heavy family losses and is left in a position where a nephew Elbert arryn is his heir apparent
ned and Robert are in the ages where they are eligible to marry and rickard makes his move for Robert by matching lyanna for possible marriage how it came to be accepted by the targs is a wonder coz in my POV king aery’s as the best possible guardian in Roberts family has never been quoted as accepting it and with the tight relationship he had with steffon baratheon he must have kept an eye out for his nephew Robert but nonetheless the match went through and another key person Elbert arryn became a squire to Brandon stark…how that came to be is still a wonder coz the North especially the starks have never been into the culture of knighthood.
incidentally as the years pass the realm prospers lords become richer ,disturbing news reaches the ears of the king that it’s the hand(tywin) who is credited with the prosperity and in my POV I think the king felt that the targ reputation was going down and the lords were becoming too powerful and he decides to come back into the fray of administration to quell such thoughts …such news lands the hand’s captain of the guard(ser Ilyne payne) in trouble and he lose’s his tongue for that then the relationship btwn the king and his hand become frosty and is severely put to the test during the defiance of duskendale…the king went into seclusion never leaving the redkeep but rheagar comes into the spotlight as he travels all over the kingdom something in my POV to targarean family realization of the threat to them and health of their leader which with how the introduction rheagar to the spotlight points to aerys trying to ease a targ change of guard should his health get worse(madness),but also something ticks the king off ,if minor lords such as the lord of duskendale could gather the courage and defy the crown and news of other high lords being seen more powerful than the king then something must have been amiss and in his desperation he seeks the services of a master whisperer(varys) from across the sea and put’s him to work.
Whatever the new spymaster fed the king seems to put a strain on the relationship with his hand(tywin) and in my POV rickards actions must have also got to the king and it’s from this point major event s will unfold and lead to war. The stark/Tully/arryn/baratheon alliance seemed to be well and to be stronger they needed some great house to cement it and I guess they figured lannister coz of past alliance starks made with lannisters in fighting off the greyjoy’s would be the one to approach, but a hiccup was that tywin was still hand of the king and in my POV it would seem rickard maybe put it forward to hoster tully to match his daughter lysa to Jaime…but the boon was the king was sidelining tywin and handling most of the realm issues by himself and Tywin was mostly in casterly rock but nonetheless hoster made the move for the Jaime/ lysa match and even Jaime went for a visit to riverun and was hosted by hoster tully meaning negotiations went on and it would seem the news got to the king and he decided to act to prevent tywin from switching to potential alliance of enemies stark/arryn/baratheon/tully….to prevent any more threat to the targ rule internally in westeros. from that in my POV I think the king asked Lord whent a targ loyalist hold a tourney at harrenhal where the king would attend and show his power and that he carried favor with the king or maybe the targs promised him something big and I think it was to send a message to hoster tully that maybe the king had got wind of their schemes and alliances
In rickards camp maybe the news of Jaime/lysa match provided a boon to their confidence and Brandon is dispatched to riverun to finalise the marriage plans to catelyn and lyanna is sent as well with her brother maybe to later on move the vale and finalise the Robert/lyanna match which would have brought a stark/arryn/lannister/baratheon/tully enuff power to overpower the targ/tyrell/martell and the event seemed to run in tandem with each other
then in harrenhal the factions clash with each other Jaime attends the tourney maybe to throw suspicion out of the window from the lannisters and some how lyanna and brandon also get to be at the same tourney or maybe it was the a PR from the stark/arryn/baratheon/lannister/tully after realizing maybe the targs were on to their plans and sent some members to represent them in the tourney or it can be put down due to the nature of the the characters Brandon,Jaime and lyanna , that they all love events where martial prowess was displayed so they had to attend but the significant outcomeof that tourney is that it two members of the stark/arryn/baratheon/lannister/tully both end up as hostages…if we can work with what most readers are told is that lyanna was kidnapped by rheagar and from where she was eventually found was in the domain of a targ loyalist(tower of joy) while Jaime was knighted and inducted into the kingsguard by aerys which to me point that the targs decided to reign in on the potential threats to them by getting valuable hostages, Jaime ending up in the redkeep, lyanna ending up in the tower of joy both in the hands of the targ loyalists
The outcome for the targs leads to tywin officialy resigns severing ties with them but since they had a valuable hostage they thought they could control him and it works ,he is out of the stark/tully/arryn/baratheon alliance which to the targs is a win and immediately after tywins depature the king placates the reach by elevating a powerful lord merryweather to the handship
In the same time frame Brandon get’s to hear of lyanna’s abduction and even though he is pressed by hoster tully to cease his ideas to ride to KL and maybe wait for direction from his father rickard, and this is where in my POV starks honor and dreams come into play and they have to show it off, something that strikes as odd is finally he had the courage to ride with his entourage to KL,and in my POV is that back in the north his father had probably called his banners and raised an army which maybe Brandon assumed was the case or it was just a confirmation of the alliance that the time to show their power had come and with that it bolstered brandon’s confidence to ride to KL and call out the crown’s heir to fight to the death.. Brandon goes through with his action confident that maybe his threats would cow the targs and realease his sister and possibly communicated to jon arryn and hoster tully to be ready at their ends and call up their banners but the drawback for them was that the vale/riverlands/stormlands was divided in loyalties some were fiercely sworn to the crown others to their liege lords
But it goes terribly wrong for Brandon rheagar was not there and is arrested by the king for threatening the life of the crown prince…a big question arises where rheagar was but in my POV I think rheagar was down in the south rallying the targ loyalist and placating the martelss that his actions at harrenhal of crowning lyanna stark as queen of love was to disrupt whatever rebellion was being mooted by the stark/arryn/tully /baratheon alliance
Back in KL the king summons the fathers of Brandon and all of his entourage(squires)ethan glover,joffery mallister,kyle Royce,Elbert arryn and when those that came they were killed with their fathers and the only survivor is ethan glover which indicates his father never came and maybe in my POV as he was left by rickard to guard moat coalin a vital link that leads to the north and seat of house glover and was probably held as a hostage,another key note to make is that jon arryn never came for his heir and due to the fact that elbert’s father ronnel had died jon arryn should have been in KL and that to me points that the rebellion had already been planned and the targs got wind of it.
Another key pointer to note is that when called to answer for their crimes rickard stark chose trial by combat. And if we can agree with the evidence of the trials conducted that we know of tyrion, impending cersei trial’s either the charges included the rebellion angle which I think was raised by the king and were true or false but I lean on true which suggests either he realized the targs had got wind of heir schemes and opted for the easy way out by choosing combat to protect the remaining party’s in the arryn/tully/starks/baratheon alliance and its from this point I deduce the targs had figured Robert was going to be used as the figure head to be king to justify the rebellion and gives a plausible reason why aerysII ordered jon arryn to bring him Robert and ned heads which point to the conclusion the targs had figured the baratheons had already betrayed them for the first time since the kingdom was founded by aegon I and from that point jon arryn called up his banners in defiance and dispatched ned and Robert back to their strongholds which in my POV suggests that they were going to command of armies that were already in standby and to secure the tully’s probably who were scared by the message from the crown (harrenhal tourney) he rushed to riverlands and hastily married lysa and matched ned marrying catelyn to secure the riverun swords and it’s during this time another key figure the black fish comes into play..we got to know they came into a bitter disagreement with his brother hoster about a marriage proposal and in my pov I think there was a suggestion of him of match with maybe tywin’s daughter cersei which I think probably repulsed him by his brother using marriage to get swords to fight in the on coming war.
other key factors was the sacking of the hand merryweather by aerysII and replacing him with a hand from the stormlands jon connington this was to me a move by the targs to further strain Roberts support and not lose the stormlands and certain lord grafton in the vale rallying the targ loyalist to prevent Robert from going to the stormland via the port city of gulltown and ned returning north but they were defeated and both ned and Robert were able to go and take command of their armies.
The targs realization of the defiance led to the king to calling his banners to crush the rebellion and at this point the in the inland alliances they were outmatched their’s had targ/tyrell/martell but the rebel side had stark/arryn/tully/baratheon with the lannister/greyjoy sitting out the targs were outmatched 4 to 3 in the great houses alliances something that in the history since the founding of the kingdom had never happened..
From here the resulting victory was cemented when rheager fell in the trident and lannister decided to ally and lean with the winning side.which in my view at least ended where rickard stark ambitions were half fulfilled and fit’s with the authors Game of thrones theme
NB these are my own POV’s and have have not stated that they are facts but just an interpretation on my side of how starks honor was a factor in causing war during a time frame and probably stick to my interpretation of the key reason why people in the kingdom of westeros fight ,for ‘power” and not coz of fulfilling prophesies.
I’l leave it here for now and when I get the time I’ll finish with the timeframe till ADWD I do hope now you’ll get an insight of why I made such a statement about starks honor