123 replies to this topic

[Serie]

I do love the Starks but I always had the feeling that we are "guided" to love the Starks. They introduce us to ASoIaF. They have all these sad stories to share. All good qualities. Most family members have their own POVs.
the only reason (in AGoT at least) to like another house more is as an opposition to the Stark advertising.....

[Child of Spring]

I love all Starks except for Caytlin, I just can't warm up to her. Sansa really annoyed me at the beginning, but now I completely changed my mind. I think that she is really one of the characters that grew the most throughout the series. She is not one of my favorite characters, but my opinion on her changed drastically since AGoT.

[Fire Eater]

Child of Spring, on 14 March 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

I love all Starks except for Caytlin, I just can't warm up to her. Sansa really annoyed me at the beginning, but now I completely changed my mind. I think that she is really one of the characters that grew the most throughout the series. She is not one of my favorite characters, but my opinion on her changed drastically since AGoT.

I know, it's her interaction with Jon in AGoT and later her comment regarding Jon in ASoS "No more than Theon greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?" that keeps me from loving her. She is a compassionate, intelligent and warm person it is that I just find her attitude towards Jon to be despicable, especially regarding that comment which we all know to be completely untrue and she has no reliable evidence for it, in the fact the evidence proves the opposite as he had been good to all her children.

As for Arya, she could use some advice Hattori Hanzo gave Beatrix from Kill Bill Vol.1 since that is the path Arya is going on: Revenge is never a straight line. It's a forest, And like a forest it's easy to lose your way... To get lost... To forget where you came in.

Edited by Fire Eater, 14 March 2012 - 04:54 PM.

[Gurkhal]

Rickons Revenge, on 14 March 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Gurkhal I would like to know why you do not like the Starks?

Oh, that's a complicated issue, I think it is at least, with many reason going pro and con but me ending up with a solid anti-Stark position.

I think that while many Starks have inidividual features that makes them symphatic I do think that they as a group have many, many characteristic that makes me alienated from them.

On the pro they are:

- Honorable
- Follow the law
- Values traditions
- Dependable

But on the con side there are:

- Judgmental
- Self-righteous
- Takes their power and position for granted
- A holier than thou attitude
- Egocentrism (yeah I'll happy agree that they share this with most other characters so its not something that I think is an exclusive Stark attribute)

And in the end I will have to say that these stuff turns the scales toward the anti-Stark group. You may also note that the Starks' objectives stand in conflict with the Lannister and Greyjoy ones and thus stand in the way for two of the Great Houses that I find most interesting. It remains to see how it will pan out with the Targaryens and the Baratheons, who I also kind of like a little.

ElizaMartell, on 14 March 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

Wow, for you to say you like a Stark, Sansa must be very special! (This isn't because she married a Lannister truly?)

No, I liked her alot even before she reached King's Landing and I like Catelyn as well because I think they have many characteristics that I find very attractive in people. They are compassionate, dutiful, reliable (or at least I think that they are ) and as far as I can see more or less without a single malicous cell in their bodies. As far as I am concerned Sansa and Catelyn are the only Starks that I like and for their sake I would be ready to allow the Stark family to live on even while it would probably backfire on me in the long run.

And no, treating the bastard who is a walking insult that Eddard wipes in her face every day is not something that I will blame her for. If I were a married woman and my husband treated me like that I would have nothing but hate for the bastard and a very solid dose of it for the husband that first insulted me by being with another woman while I was carrying his child, and then made it common knowledge and brough the bastard with him to ensure that every single day for over a decade I would be reminded of it. I admire Catelyn's temperence and compassion that she didn't have far worse things to say about Jon than she had. People are really making a hen out of a feather on this (Swedish expression but I think the meaning is pretty clear).

Serie, on 14 March 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

I do love the Starks but I always had the feeling that we are "guided" to love the Starks. They introduce us to ASoIaF. They have all these sad stories to share. All good qualities. Most family members have their own POVs.
the only reason (in AGoT at least) to like another house more is as an opposition to the Stark advertising.....

I agree with you that we kind of have the Stark forced down our throats during the first parts of the series. Although I myself was kind of hook by Tyrion as soon as he came into view so I think that there were at least some alternatives, even if they weren't many.

[B'Tash]

Gurkhal, on 14 March 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

And no, treating the bastard who is a walking insult that Eddard wipes in her face every day is not something that I will blame her for. If I were a married woman and my husband treated me like that I would have nothing but hate for the bastard and a very solid dose of it for the husband that first insulted me by being with another woman while I was carrying his child, and then made it common knowledge and brough the bastard with him to ensure that every single day for over a decade I would be reminded of it. I admire Catelyn's temperence and compassion that she didn't have far worse things to say about Jon than she had. People are really making a hen out of a feather on this (Swedish expression but I think the meaning is pretty clear).

While I do not agree with your general opinion (I love Starks ) I agree with what you said above (although, I wouldn't say it quite so forcefully ).

Why I love Starks? Not because I think they are whiter than snow - from their 8000 year old history we can see they had some mean m*****ers and current generation has all kinds of characters - but because, as a whole, they seem to me like the most functional family in Westeros (Cat-Jon situation notwistanding) who love, respect and are loyal to each other. Tyrells are the close second in that regard - I see them as a very well oiled machine, working together towards one goal - but I cannot love them, they do not inspire strong emotions in me like Starks do   

Edited by B'Tash, 14 March 2012 - 05:45 PM.

[ElizaMartell]

Gurkhal, on 14 March 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

Oh, that's a complicated issue, I think it is at least, with many reason going pro and con but me ending up with a solid anti-Stark position.

I think that while many Starks have inidividual features that makes them symphatic I do think that they as a group have many, many characteristic that makes me alienated from them.

On the pro they are:

- Honorable
- Follow the law
- Values traditions
- Dependable

But on the con side there are:

- Judgmental
- Self-righteous
- Takes their power and position for granted
- A holier than thou attitude
- Egocentrism (yeah I'll happy agree that they share this with most other characters so its not something that I think is an exclusive Stark attribute)

And in the end I will have to say that these stuff turns the scales toward the anti-Stark group. You may also note that the Starks' objectives stand in conflict with the Lannister and Greyjoy ones and thus stand in the way for two of the Great Houses that I find most interesting. It remains to see how it will pan out with the Targaryens and the Baratheons, who I also kind of like a little.



No, I liked her alot even before she reached King's Landing and I like Catelyn as well because I think they have many characteristics that I find very attractive in people. They are compassionate, dutiful, reliable (or at least I think that they are ) and as far as I can see more or less without a single malicous cell in their bodies. As far as I am concerned Sansa and Catelyn are the only Starks that I like and for their sake I would be ready to allow the Stark family to live on even while it would probably backfire on me in the long run.

And no, treating the bastard who is a walking insult that Eddard wipes in her face every day is not something that I will blame her for. If I were a married woman and my husband treated me like that I would have nothing but hate for the bastard and a very solid dose of it for the husband that first insulted me by being with another woman while I was carrying his child, and then made it common knowledge and brough the bastard with him to ensure that every single day for over a decade I would be reminded of it. I admire Catelyn's temperence and compassion that she didn't have far worse things to say about Jon than she had. People are really making a hen out of a feather on this (Swedish expression but I think the meaning is pretty clear).

You love Catelyn and Sansa? You offer balanced views on why the Starks may be interesting but have major faults like the other houses?

I think I'm going to have to kidnap and marry you...not neccesarily in that order.

[The Frosted King]

I honestly don't understand how one can say they hate the Starks and then champion the Lannisters and the Greyjoys.
I love history in all its forms, so i love the Stark clan due to the constant drips of historical data we get.
I love their rule of personal accountability, and think its to the betterment of their people.
I like that there's actually a core of love at the basis of their family, and its part of the reason why i like the Tyrells as well.

Eddard is a man who loves his family. And teaches them that power is a duty to those beneath you in standing.
Catelyn is a woman who loves her family as well, and does all that she can to protect them after tragedy hits them.
Robb is a boy who was thrown the mantle of leadership at a young age, and made the realm take notice.
Bran is a magician.
Rickon is a warlord to be, shaped by his losses.
Sansa is a lady who had the veil ripped from her eyes.
Arya is a assassin.



The lannisters tho?
Very interesting people to read about, but distinctly unlikable in most forms.
The only true affection we see is from Tyrion to Jamie at the beginning of the book, and from there they're split up, and the ugliness beneath all the gold and crimson roars its presence.
Tywin clearly values his children, but i don't get the sentiment of love from him.
Cersei is ugliness personified, and her "love"is a warped thing, from her treatment of her son, to her twin.
Kevan is a good guy in service to a terrible cause. No beef with him.
Jamie is a cold man whose worldview is stunted, but he masks that chill with humor, at himself and others.
Tyrion is a result of the times he lives in.

[Nightfyre]

I don't know if i would read ASOIAF if there were no Starks. Who wants to read 7 books of southern prancing ponies.

The Starks are an honorable righteous people.

Sansa has to win some of my love back in regard to Ned

Catelyn has to apologize to Jon

[Serie]

Nightfire, on 14 March 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

I don't know if i would read ASOIAF if there were no Starks. Who wants to read 7 books of southern prancing ponies.

The Starks are an honorable righteous people.

Sansa has to win some of my love back in regard to Ned

Catelyn has to apologize to Jon

just one thing, prancing pony was a respectable and lovely inn back in the lord of the rings, it hurts me that you use the phrase with such contempt
ok back to serious stuff, I don't know what's wrong with me tonight

But I wonder, why people categorize Catelyn as a Stark? She's always a Tully to me.

[edit: oh beloved mistakes]

Edited by Serie, 14 March 2012 - 07:01 PM.

[sarah.jenice]

I loved the Starks from the beginning with my favorites being close between Jon and Arya. I loved Robb's courage but was disappointed with his bad judgement and not listening to his mom. Sansa is getting better. I can't wait to see Bran's power's grow. Rickon is a baby, but his fierce direwolf makes me hope he will be a force to fear. Ned was a great father, but his bad judgement irritated me at times. I loved a lot of his interaction with the girls in King's Landing, especially when he lets Arya keep Needle.

[Fire Eater]

Gurkhal, on 14 March 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

And no, treating the bastard who is a walking insult that Eddard wipes in her face every day is not something that I will blame her for. If I were a married woman and my husband treated me like that I would have nothing but hate for the bastard and a very solid dose of it for the husband that first insulted me by being with another woman while I was carrying his child, and then made it common knowledge and brough the bastard with him to ensure that every single day for over a decade I would be reminded of it. I admire Catelyn's temperence and compassion that she didn't have far worse things to say about Jon than she had. People are really making a hen out of a feather on this (Swedish expression but I think the meaning is pretty clear).

You would hate the bastard even though he did nothing wrong? I understand you would be mad at your spouse for fathering a child with another woman, I would if it happened to me as well, but it wasn't the child's fault he was born, it was the husband's fault. Blaming an innocent child for their father's crimes would be irrational as well as morally wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. You should blame people not for circumstances surrounding them that are beyond their control, but for their choices.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Yeah I love the Starks. They are generally good guys trying to survive in a harsh world, and despite starting as good guys in the story they have to face difficult situations that challenge their previous views and there is great drama in the story watching them interacting with other characters and trying to survive in Westeros.  Eddard in particular also has some rather interesting and tragic backstory and relationships with characters such as Robert, Lyanna, etc. Also they feel like real characters despite most of them being good persons, they do have their flaws and are not extremely unrealistic. I guess Arya sort of is but her story is going in a dark place.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 14 March 2012 - 11:45 PM.

[analeigh]

I love the Starks. Yes they have their individual faults, but I can't help but admire their courage as they've faced everything that has come their way since Robert Baratheon showed up at Winterfell. House Stark has suffered tragedy after tragedy and the close extinction of their house, yet the remaining Stark family members are determined to persever, adapt, and change in order to survive. Although separated, they think of each other and cling to the memories they have of each other. And I also find it interesting that for most of the Starks who have died, their deaths were given in vain for the protection of another family member: ie. Brandon choking to death trying to free Rickard, Rickard risking his life in a trial by combat to defend his son from against the charges against him, Eddard sacrificing his honor and ultimately his life to protect Sansa, Catelyn dying in vain trying to bargain for Robb's life.

Yes, the Starks are set up as the good guys, but their story is one of the most compelling stories happening right now in the series. House Stark has pretty much hit rock bottom and suffered insult and defeat at the hands of their enemies. With new skills at their disposal, can the Stark kids consolidate their power and their allies and rise from the ashes to restore their House to its former glory? Have they learned enough and will they avoid making reckless mistakes that their enemies will capitlize on? And will they succeed in sorting out the chaos of the north in time before the others come?

[ed Lannister]

Apple Martini, on 14 March 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

I love them, stupid misplaced honor and all. Ned and Tywin (and Robb) ended up equally dead. Is anyone other than Cersei (who's really only on a vendetta rampage against her brother) really trying to avenge Tywin? Does anyone love Tywin like they still love Ned and Robb? No.

I think the Starks are the proverbial tortoise. They take short-term losses and hang in there, and they'll come out on top.

i generally dont hate starks and i'm fond of bran,but in general they should just keep their asses back north...the last recent 30years of westeros history they've plunged the kingdom into war over some nonsense about  honor..

yes numerous lords loved tywin lord antario jast,lord brax,lord banefort,plumm,prester,moreland came to KL to escort the great lion tywin back to casterly rock..each even donned a silk of crimson silk in honor of tywin and a retinue of hundreds of armed men to escort tywin to his resting place and  nobody forced them to do that..they did it and it showed they loved tywin ....has anybody done the same for these people you claim that loved robb and ned even in secret after they died??? that just shows tywin could inspire people to even love him,respect him even in death



lannisters know how to get their sweet revenge.....cersei is a blemish on the way lannisters normally serve and carry out their revenge something must be amiss in her head but generally should other lannisters get the opportunity to serve out their revenge plans on their enemies the excecution of it is dazzing and scary jaime on edmure,tyrion on lysa,tywin on aerys,tarbecks and reynes

[LordBloodraven]

ed Lannister, on 15 March 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

i generally dont hate starks and i'm fond of bran,but in general they should just keep their asses back north...the last recent 30years of westeros history they've plunged the kingdom into war over some nonsense about  honor..

yes numerous lords loved tywin lord antario jast,lord brax,lord banefort,plumm,prester,moreland came to KL to escort the great lion tywin back to casterly rock..each even donned a silk of crimson silk in honor of tywin and a retinue of hundreds of armed men to escort tywin to his resting place and  nobody forced them to do that..they did it and it showed they loved tywin ....has anybody done the same for these people you claim that loved robb and ned even in secret after they died??? that just shows tywin could inspire people to even love him,respect him even in death



lannisters know how to get their sweet revenge.....cersei is a blemish on the way lannisters normally serve and carry out their revenge something must be amiss in her head but generally should other lannisters get the opportunity to serve out their revenge plans on their enemies the excecution of it is dazzing and scary jaime on edmure,tyrion on lysa,tywin on aerys,tarbecks and reynes

Are you sure that those guys loved Tywin? Did they have a choice in wearing the crimson colours when accompanying Tywin to his resting place? We didn't see any of those guys helping Tywin's daughter when she was imprisoned by the Faith.

I agree with you about the Starks getting pwned during Westeros's last thirty years but I think that they earned respect and legacy from many people, not only in the North but in the Vale or the Riverlands (i.e. Bronze Yohn and his acolytes who wanted to engage in war even if their Lady paramount didn't want to). Seeing hungry people suffering a blizzard to go and fight against an enemy who has the backing of the Lannisters and who's all good inside his castle for the cause of a House who has been exiled, shows more than love, it's loyalty and respect at its finest. It's way more than wearing silk and strolling around Westeros.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

ed Lannister, on 15 March 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

the last recent 30years of westeros history they've plunged the kingdom into war over some nonsense about  honor..

Yea, those stubborn honorable Starks...not just meekly submitting to be executed by the Mad King, such stupid nonsense 'honor.' More nonsense 'honor' when Joffrey wrongfully imprisoned Ned and Robb went to war to get him released.

ed Lannister, on 15 March 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

yes numerous lords loved tywin lord antario jast,lord brax,lord banefort,plumm,prester,moreland came to KL to escort the great lion tywin back to casterly rock..each even donned a silk of crimson silk in honor of tywin and a retinue of hundreds of armed men to escort tywin to his resting place and  nobody forced them to do that..they did it and it showed they loved tywin ....has anybody done the same for these people you claim that loved robb and ned even in secret after they died??? that just shows tywin could inspire people to even love him,respect him even in death

You think the Lannisters were going to let an honor guard from the North march down to King's Landing in a time of war? Seriously?

In Dance we see the North rise for Stannis in memory of Ned and Robb and for the cause of avenging them and rescuing 'Arya.'

'“Do you want to die, Wull?”
That seemed to amuse the northman. “I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter.
Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned’s little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.”'

The North remembers the Ned.

Edited by OnionAhaiReborn, 15 March 2012 - 09:51 AM.

[Rickons Revenge]

To me I just don't see the Stark kids joining forces and teaming up to beat the bad guys like in a super hero cartoon. It would be nice to see them back together and finally get their revenge. But I just don't see GRRM writing a happy ending for this family.

[Rickons Revenge]

Does anyone know about Neds mom or his ancestors?

[ed Lannister]

LordBloodraven, on 15 March 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

Are you sure that those guys loved Tywin? Did they have a choice in wearing the crimson colours when accompanying Tywin to his resting place? We didn't see any of those guys helping Tywin's daughter when she was imprisoned by the Faith. I agree with you about the Starks getting pwned during Westeros's last thirty years but I think that they earned respect and legacy from many people, not only in the North but in the Vale or the Riverlands (i.e. Bronze Yohn and his acolytes who wanted to engage in war even if their Lady paramount didn't want to). Seeing hungry people suffering a blizzard to go and fight against an enemy who has the backing of the Lannisters and who's all good inside his castle for the cause of a House who has been exiled, shows more than love, it's loyalty and respect at its finest. It's way more than wearing silk and strolling around Westeros.

when have you seen any member of any other house put on colors of a another house in the entire series(books) as a sign  of respect and love.... apart from the from what was shown towards  tywin by his bannermen...... they all came from the westerlands and displayed it...this proves they loved tywin and gave him a wonderful sendoff......From Jaimes's POV in AFFC it shows it was their idea and nobody forced them to display that...

cersei is a nutjob running around murking up things and even despite that kevan never had the time to rally the bannermen to prevent that...but if the faith wanted to kill her  kevan would lead them nontheless if it came to threats against her life which with uttermost verocity points out to the high septon .... after the faith guarantees her penance is the only thing that she was required to do for the crimes she admitted there was no death threat to her..however should any death threats come directly to her you bet they will rally to help tywin's daughter....

sure they will  have people who are sympathetic to them and win their admiration but also finish that they did not help them when it mattered most bronze yohn never came to the starks aid when it matters and that's the loyalty you admire[img]../../../public/style_emoticons/default/drool.gif[/img]

[ed Lannister]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 15 March 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

Yea, those stubborn honorable Starks...not just meekly submitting to be executed by the Mad King, such stupid nonsense 'honor.' More nonsense 'honor' when Joffrey wrongfully imprisoned Ned and Robb went to war to get him released. You think the Lannisters were going to let an honor guard from the North march down to King's Landing in a time of war? Seriously? In Dance we see the North rise for Stannis in memory of Ned and Robb and for the cause of avenging them and rescuing 'Arya.' '“Do you want to die, Wull?” That seemed to amuse the northman. “I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter. Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned’s little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.”' The North remembers the Ned.

when you ignore the part where  some stark in his bravado of invicibility rides along with his peeps clad in mail to the red keep threatening the crown prince to come out and die all in the presence of a mad king.....everybody in the kingdom knew the state of mind of the mad king even the starks and yet see no consequence that triggers the war....ned being outmatched in the skills for vying for the throne for his preffered candidate.... his son raising an army to threaten the king perched to the throne at the time and then finally crowning himself as a king...there are more powerful people who exist in westeros who don't idol worship or move at the whims of the starks and yet fail to realise all of that
...you missed the secret part i mentioned........... lannisters handed back eddards bones which were treated well and escorted by the silent sisters under the authority of the lannisters  ....... heck even beric dondarrion got a good sendoff from his BWB...in the north you seem to miss how even some plan to feed eddard bones to their dogs should they get their hands on them...you seem to miss the savagery of a king... who his own vassals plotted and carried out the most henious degradation to his body by sewing a wolf's head on it

good luck to wull and the rest of the stark fanatics in the north in their quest for revenge on boltons but if they are successful they should also remember one key thing "bend the knee to the holder of the iron throne" at the time be it stannis,aegon,tommen,euron or dany and stay north ...they bring mostly doom  to themselves when they follow starks to the south with their ambitions