152 replies to this topic

[Aegon I]

I'm sure its been mentioned before but I couldn't find a thread.

Melisandre is definetly using a glamour to conceal her true identity because we are constantly told that the ruby on her neck is radiant and pulsing.  And when we find out Rattleshirt is Mance we are told that glamours usually involve a precious stone or pendant.  (I think he had a pulsing stone on his arm... though i could be wrong)

My question is if Melisandre is a random person from Westeros why would she conceal her identity.  Unless she was someone that is at least semi-famous.  Who could she be.  Wild theories encouraged.

[kissdbyfire]

Maybe the glamour she uses is not to conceal a 'known identity' but the fact that she isn't as young and gorgeous as she appears...

[Jem]

It is possible that she is using a glamor, but they are difficult to maintain and use a lot of effort and energy. If she is using a glamor I would say it is just a minor one to make her look younger and more attractive, rather than an all-concealing glamor that masks her identity.

I don't think that there is any reason to assume she is from Westeros. She seems to have memories of being sold as a slave as a girl and she seems to be from Essos originally (I haven't read the book for ages and can't remember exactly).

If you want to make an arguement that she is "someone", maybe Sheira Seastar? It would make her interactions with Bloodraven more complex.

[Faint]

Theories on this subject mostly center on her wanting to present a certain image of youth, vitality, power, and all that other good stuff. I've yet to read any theory proposing that she is actually concealing a secret identity. And, frankly, let us hope she isn't; there is already a surplus of characters running around pretending to be someone they are not. Which, incidentally, doesn't even cover those characters that are unknowing heirs to some great dynasty or the ones have simply decided to assume a new identity for other reasons.

In Melisandre's case, she probably falls into the last category, if any. We know her real name is probably Melody and that she was sold as a slave. I gather from those two facts alone that her origins are not noteworthy and that her 'true' identity is just that of a commoner.

[Winterborn]

hmmm...I always thought that Quaithe and Shiera Seastar were the same person...

could Melisandre also be Quaithe? And if she was Shiera Seastar, why would she have memories of being sold as a slave, and why would she remember having a different name?

I love the topic of this thread btw. What a fun line of questioning...

Melisandre's history is definitely one of the great mysteries of the books.

Edited by Winterborn, 15 March 2012 - 12:59 AM.

[Aegon I]

@faint and jem - I don't know... I think she would have got the support of Stannis whether she looked young and beautiful or old and wise because Stannis dosen't seem to be attracted to her and  seems to only be interested in the magic she possess.  A glamour just for beauty seems unnecessary to me.  

@Winterborn - Thanx

[LadyoftheNorth72]

It is hard for me to reconcile Melisandre with Quaithe.  First, Quaithe seems to be. something of a fixture in Qarth, as Melisandre is in Westeros.  Neither seems possessed of the kind of power that would permit them to be the same person, living two different and constant lives on separate continents.

There is also the fact that Mel obviously enjoys using and flaunting her beauty, while Quaithe hides behind her mask.  It does not seem to make much sense that if they were the same, Quaithe would wear the mask solely to hide her identity from Dany, who has never met her and could not recognize her.  And if they were the same person with such amazing powers, and wanted to keep Dany from seeing Mel until a later date, why not just use a different glamour ...why use the mask, which will only frustrate Dany's ability to trust Quaithe?

I think there is good reason for the mask, although what it might be is anyone's guess.  Perhaps she is like UnGregor and there is nothing underneath.  Perhaps she is disfigured some way.  Or, most intriguing, perhaps she is someone from Dany's past and does not want to be recognized.  Based on what we know of Dany's life story, I cannot imagine who that could be, but it is an interesting possibility.

Back to Mel.  My personal opinion on Mel's ability to read and accurately predict the future is so low that if she told me the sun would rise in the East in the morning, I would entertain doubts.  Quaithe's prophecies on the other hand, while frustratingly cryptic, do seem to be borne out in many of the events lately surrounding Dany.

I am not sure which is more irritating to me ...a witch who is happy to speak her predictions in plain language but is usually wrong, or one who is usually right but so confusing in her statements that they do no good except in retrospect.  The pale mare will come ...well, thank you, Captain Obvious.  Too bad for the normal mortals that this warning meant absolutely nothing until it had already arrived at their doorstep.  Frankly, at the moment I find them both totally useless, practically speaking.

All I know about Mel is that I find no reason to believe a word that comes out of her mouth.

[Faint]

Hey, she was right about the "knives in the dark," wasn't she?

Come now, she isn't a complete fool. And say what you want about her but she might very well be right at the side of Azor Ahai and, depending on how things shake out, could possibly play the role of his savior and only remaining ally. So, basically, mission accomplished.

In all seriousness, for all the mess she's made trying to interpret prophecy, she somehow still managed to be at the right place, at the right time.

[Winterborn]

@LadyoftheNorth72 - All good points about Quaithe vs. Melisandre...it would still be interesting if they knew or were aware of each other.

...I just had an epiphany.

So, GRRM has stressed in several interviews that the letter sealed with the Bolton "Flayed Man" that Jon received at the end of ADWD was likely a fake. There could be a couple of scenarios here:
1.) Ramsay, being in a desperate situation, sent the letter either in the hopes of sowing dissent among the NW and testing Jon Snow's loyalty, or by drawing Jon into battle so he could defeat Stannis' strongest ally and a surviving heir to Winterfell.
2.) Someone else sent the letter, with a false Bolton seal, to force a reaction from Jon.

Either way, the person sending the letter would have to know about Melisandre's glamour spells, the true identity of Mance Rayder and his spearwives, and the visions Melisandre had about the Night's Watch giving sanctuary to a young woman related to the Starks. If it was someone in the Night's Watch or in Stannis' camp, how did they spy on the private conversations between Jon and Melisandre? And if it was Ramsay, who is the informant who is passing on so much detailed information about what's going on outside of Winterfell? And how is this communication possible while Winterfell is snowed in and the armies are shooting down ravens right and left?

It almost sounds like there is another sorcerer at work here, besides Melisandre - someone who can look into the flames like the Red Priests or through the Weirwoods like Bloodraven. We don't know much about Euron's use of magic except that he has a connection to the warlocks of Qarth. Roose Bolton, while never explicitly described as a magic-user, certainly has his moments of eerie foreknowledge. There could be other candidates as well, that I can't even begin to guess at.

I have to wonder if Melisandre has a rival - and if so, does she know that there is another sorcerer at play in the Northlands?

Edited by Winterborn, 15 March 2012 - 06:45 PM.

[alienarea]

I assume Melisandre is hiding in plain sight like Palpatine did - she is TGO.

[Winterborn]

alienarea, on 15 March 2012 - 02:13 AM, said:

I assume Melisandre is hiding in plain sight like Palpatine did - she is TGO.

I like it! But then again I like most crackpot theories.

This would not necessarily be contradictory to her devotion to R'Hllor.

All light must have its shadow...

Edited by Winterborn, 15 March 2012 - 02:28 AM.

[Lykos]

LadyoftheNorth72, on 15 March 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

<snip> Quaithe hides behind her mask.  It does not seem to make much sense that if they were the same, Quaithe would wear the mask solely to hide her identity from Dany, who has never met her and could not recognize her. <snip>

I think Quaithe might be Mirri Maz Duur.  But Mirri Maz Duur might have really sacrificed herself to hatch the dragons.  I think Quaithes warnings are not meant to help Dany, though they´re true they´re designed  to gain Dany´s trust, so they have to come true and this will lead to Dany turning to Quaithe for help.

I don´t think that Mel believes most of the bullshit she tells Stannis.  She definitely knows Lightbringer is fake, because she faked it,  she needed Stannis and making Selyse believe that he was the Ptwp, was the way to gain access to him and Dragonstone.

I´m shure she started out as a priest slave of R´hllor like Moqorro.  In the heresy thread the idea is discussed that the red priests are sustained by fire and this fire of life was passed on to Berric by Thoros when he gave the kiss of life.  I´m not shure about this.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I've always just assumed that she was a very old sorceress who was using her magical abilities to conceal her true age and image. She probably learned long ago that physical beauty holds a certain sway over people.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

alienarea, on 15 March 2012 - 02:13 AM, said:

I assume Melisandre is hiding in plain sight like Palpatine did - she is TGO.

Wow, this would be pretty amazing if this was true! But at the same time you would think the Great Other would want to keep everyone's attentions AWAY from the Wall and the Others and all Melisandre is about is calling attention to the coming war against the Others so I don't think this theory that she is TGO would pan out.

[kissdbyfire]

Lykos, on 15 March 2012 - 02:49 AM, said:

I don´t think that Mel believes most of the bullshit she tells Stannis.  She definitely knows Lightbringer is fake, because she faked it,  she needed Stannis and making Selyse believe that he was the Ptwp, was the way to gain access to him and Dragonstone.

I've often wondered to what extent Melisandre believes all that BS she keeps banging on about, but I think it's clear that she truly believes some of it. From ADwD:

"The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the hearthfire. One more time. She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument."

[Lykos]

Yes, I´m not shure if she´s just calling Stannis AA to herself or if she convinced herself that he really is.  Ithink the flame-o-vision only works short time-distance ( the further you look the more vague  the images get ).  But the really important part of the quote is "...your instrument."

[Aegon I]

@ Winterborn - I think you have an interesting idea about some other then a bolton sending that letter... It makes sense.

@Everone - I think that the very fact that Melisadre is using a glamour is proof that there are ulterior motives behind her I would like to think that she is a connected to Westeros in some way.  We know that the other red priest in Westeros - Thoros of Myr - Was banished from Esseros so why is Melissandre here... I can't help but feel that she is using Stannis for some greater purpose.

Edited by Aegon I, 15 March 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[Euphail]

I always thought she would be the dragon made of stone who breathes shadow flame. Stone being greyscale, and she's of some Targarian ancestry. (crackpot I know...)

[Darth Vader's Bastard]

maybe she's a man, baby
[/austin powers voice]

Edited by Darth Vader's Bastard, 15 March 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[Ser Lepus]

She is probably a slave priestess from somewhere in Essos. She had some inborn magical skill, just like the Stark kids, Varamyr, Thoros, Daeron the Drunken, Jojen Reed,  that allowed her to learn some weak magic, like Maegi  the Frog or Mirri Maz Dhur did, but, being a religious (fanatical. even) person, she decided that was a sign of the Red God favour, came to believe herself chosen to find Azor Ahai reborn, and left/ran away from her temple.
When magic started to get stronger everywhere (around the time the red comet appeared and Dany hatched her dragons), she, isolated from other magical users, believed that was something that was happening only to her, another sign of R´hllor´s favour.

Edited by Ser Lepus, 15 March 2012 - 01:36 PM.