42 replies to this topic

[Light a wight tonight]

Lord Petyr would certainly be a better king than the last 4. He would probably be good for Westeros in a way. He could make more profit in a peaceful realm than in one constantly at war. (Westeros hasn't yet developed the military-industrial complex that's draining our current society.)

His problem is that he's just made too many enemies on the way to where he is, and someone's going to bring him down. If he thinks nobody can touch him he might be right. "Who are you?" "Nobody."

[the Scorpion Knight]

Light a wight tonight, on 15 March 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Lord Petyr would certainly be a better king than the last 4. He would probably be good for Westeros in a way. He could make more profit in a peaceful realm than in one constantly at war. (Westeros hasn't yet developed the military-industrial complex that's draining our current society.)

His problem is that he's just made too many enemies on the way to where he is, and someone's going to bring him down. If he thinks nobody can touch him he might be right. "Who are you?" "Nobody."

as seen on the riverlands he would last serveral months (thanks to the communications) as king

[Knight Of Winter]

The Swaggerinng Bravo, why would LF want to support Stannis? Whatever his master plan is (assuming he has one), it's clear LF prefers position where he can freely enjoy his power. Under Stannis, he would not have it. Stannis despises LF, and LF is very well aware of it. In fact, when Ned told LF he's going to support Stannis, LF immediately backstabbed him. So it's highly unlikely he will cast his lot with Stannis now,

Oh, and by the way, I do strongly hope Sansa learns of LF's role in Stark demise, outmanuevres him and strippes him of his power.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Knight Of Winter, on 15 March 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

The Swaggerinng Bravo, why would LF want to support Stannis? Whatever his master plan is (assuming he has one), it's clear LF prefers position where he can freely enjoy his power. Under Stannis, he would not have it. Stannis despises LF, and LF is very well aware of it. In fact, when Ned told LF he's going to support Stannis, LF immediately backstabbed him. So it's highly unlikely he will cast his lot with Stannis now,

Oh, and by the way, I do strongly hope Sansa learns of LF's role in Stark demise, outmanuevres him and strippes him of his power.

What role?

I really hate littlefinger's infatuation with Sansa I wish he would just get over it.  But I guess then he wouldn't be my sweet Petyr.

[jarl the climber]

Lord Littlefinger, on 15 March 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

What role?

I really hate littlefinger's infatuation with Sansa I wish he would just get over it.  But I guess then he wouldn't be my sweet Petyr.

How infatuated is he really? I always thought he wanted to knock off Lysa, it goes with his philosophy of doing things that seem to work against him. Basically he brokering a marriage for her to improve his posistion with whoever he decides to go with for the throne. Maybe someone will take some mercy on him and offer a marriage he would actually want. Maybe Jon could send Princess Valla to Sansa to run interference for her and/or marry or kill him. LF is dangerous with a knife I beleive.

[Falrinn]

The Swaggering Bravo, on 15 March 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

I believe Littlefinger means to support Stannis. Sansa will be instructed to back him and he will then be on the winning side if the Tyrells abandon Tommen's claim for Stannis. But I have no doubts that it will be after Littlefinger is certain Highgarden won't be on the opposing side, he wouldn't take that risk.

I find it odd how so many people casually dismiss Ramsey's letter as a total fabrication.  Ramsey Bolton may be a psychotic murderer, but I seriously doubt he'd claim Stannis was dead unless he had good reason to believe so.  That doesn't mean Stannis can't be alive of course (Ramsey could be mistaken for one reason or another), just that we have to consider the possibility he isn't.


At any rate, I think Littlefinger wants to be more of a manipulator then anything.  He doesn't want to sit on the Iron Throne himself, but he wants to rule the Seven Kingdoms through various alliances, dealings, and trickery.  His next plan probably does have to do with the North, but I could also see him actually asserting his claim to the Riverlands before then.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Falrinn, on 15 March 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

I find it odd how so many people casually dismiss Ramsey's letter as a total fabrication.  Ramsey Bolton may be a psychotic murderer, but I seriously doubt he'd claim Stannis was dead unless he had good reason to believe so.  That doesn't mean Stannis can't be alive of course (Ramsey could be mistaken for one reason or another), just that we have to consider the possibility he isn't.


At any rate, I think Littlefinger wants to be more of a manipulator then anything.  He doesn't want to sit on the Iron Throne himself, but he wants to rule the Seven Kingdoms through various alliances, dealings, and trickery.  His next plan probably does have to do with the North, but I could also see him actually asserting his claim to the Riverlands before then.

I believe that taking the North first would make more sense. Think about it, the first castle an army hoping to put the Tullys back in power would probably be the Twins, and it would be much more quick and effective if on one side of the river was the Northern army descending from the Neck and the Arryn army arriving from the Vale. And I seriously doubt that Ramsay was telling the truth in that letter.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

The lords of the realm would not respect him as King. He could only do so much manipulating before the open rebellions would start to form.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

Littlefinger seems like the type who wouldn't want the throne...too much attention. He's the kind who likes to pull the strings from behind the curtain.

[James Arryn]

Well, if the whole 'you win or you die' thing continues to play out, where else should he aim?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

James Arryn, on 16 March 2012 - 01:24 AM, said:

Well, if the whole 'you win or you die' thing continues to play out, where else should he aim?

I think that depends entiirely on your personal definition of winning.  For LF, winning may simply consist of:

Getting Sansa's name cleared, marrying her to Harry openly as the presumptive heir of Winterfell

Giving that marriage enough time to produce a couple of heirs, and for Sansa to win over the Vale to love and trust her enough as Protector when both Sweetrobin and Harry die untimely deaths

After as short a period of mourning as socially acceptable, marrying Sansa himself and having a few heirs of his own with her

Living out a comfy life as co-ruler of Winterfell/the North, Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, co-ruler/Protector of the Vale and the East, Lod of Harrenhal, and happy husband to his version of Cat 2.0

Eventually throwing in with whomever ends up winning the Iron Throne and allying with them/supporting their reign with his enormous block of lands and titles.

There are, unfortunately, holes in his plan (or at minimum questionable assumptions) large enough to drive a seige engine through, but LF has always been good at calling the plays on the field once he sees how the defensive players are lined up.  And even if his amazing powers of plotting and persuasion are not enough to bring this all off, I have no doubt that he BELIEVES that they are up to the tasks.

[James Arryn]

I think LF recognizes that the higher you rank, the fewer people have the right/ability to decide whether you live or die. I think he is intimately aware of how unsafe any of the options you listed here would ultimately be for him as soon as someone with more power decided they wanted him out of the picture.

I agree that he wouldn't need to 'win' for the same overt reasons as many who play, but ultimately I think 'ability to protect myself' is the one he wouldn't be able to avoid wanting as much as possible, and the only means to do that is to win.

[Lyanna Stark]

Buckwheat, on 15 March 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

I thought he was talking of Cersei, Margaery and Sansa.

Sansa is not likely at this stage: far more likely is Cersei, Margaery and Myrcella (crowned in Dorne) or better yet: Cersei, Margaery and Daenerys. Either or, Sansa remains hidden for the moment and people think she's either fled, or that she died.

Sansa's impending marriage to Harry the Heir will probably take some time as well, as LF will have to a. get Sansa to seduce Harry, or at least flirt with him and b. he needs her marriage to Tyrion anulled. Sure, Alayne Stone can charm Harry the Heir, but Sansa Stark is needed for the marriage and for this, LF needs Tyrion dead or the marriage anulled.

jarl the climber, on 15 March 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

How infatuated is he really? I always thought he wanted to knock off Lysa, it goes with his philosophy of doing things that seem to work against him. Basically he brokering a marriage for her to improve his posistion with whoever he decides to go with for the throne. Maybe someone will take some mercy on him and offer a marriage he would actually want. Maybe Jon could send Princess Valla to Sansa to run interference for her and/or marry or kill him. LF is dangerous with a knife I beleive.

Shoving Lysa out the Moon Door at the stage he did was foolish and risky. He had not yet used Lysa to establish his power in the Vale. Further, the reason he ended up having to do that was because he kissed Sansa out in the open and Lysa saw it. He doesn't always act rationally around Sansa. Apart from the non fatherly kiss (of which there are more in AFfC), he also tells her waaaay too much stuff that he doesn't really need to. He likes to impress Sansa. During his bedding procedure with Lysa, he smiled only at Sansa as well.

LF wants Sansa because he could not get Cat. He tells Lysa when he shoves her out the Moon Door that he only ever loved one woman and that was Cat. Sansa is Cat's stand-in, and she is also a stand-in for the daughter Petyr Baelish wishes he had with Cat (which makes his infatuation with Sansa even freaker with sprinkles of pedo).

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 16 March 2012 - 02:37 AM.

[chris999]

LordBloodraven, on 15 March 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

Nahh, I don't think it will be so easy. The Gold Cloak are for Aegon, "some oaths are written in  blood", and Varys knows Littlefinger's dangerosity. So I don't think it's possible.

Why would Sansa want to marry Littlefinger? He can't control him forever and she doesn't love him. She'll know soon enough that Norther lords are fighting for the Starks and she'll have another alternative.

Littlefinger, seating on the Iron throne. Maybe after the Others wipe out Westeros.

Sansa doesnt have to "love" Littlefinger to marry him. Only the commonfolk marry for love.

Sansa will accept his proposal because of political reasons. If they are married, they will have a powerful enough force to win back Winterfell for Sansa, or even win the entire kingdom if they want to. It wont be for love.

[voodooqueen126]

Lord Littlefinger, on 15 March 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

What role?

I really hate littlefinger's infatuation with Sansa I wish he would just get over it.  But I guess then he wouldn't be my sweet Petyr.

Wishing that Petyr would get over his obsession with Sansa, is like wishing Humbert Humbert to get over his obsession with Lolita and simply be a witty linguist and professor...

Quote

Shoving Lysa out the Moon Door at the stage he did was foolish and risky. He had not yet used Lysa to establish his power in the Vale. Further, the reason he ended up having to do that was because he kissed Sansa out in the open and Lysa saw it. He doesn't always act rationally around Sansa. Apart from the non fatherly kiss (of which there are more in AFfC), he also tells her waaaay too much stuff that he doesn't really need to. He likes to impress Sansa. During his bedding procedure with Lysa, he smiled only at Sansa as well.

LF wants Sansa because he could not get Cat. He tells Lysa when he shoves her out the Moon Door that he only ever loved one woman and that was Cat. Sansa is Cat's stand-in, and she is also a stand-in for the daughter Petyr Baelish wishes he had with Cat (which makes his infatuation with Sansa even freaker with sprinkles of pedo).

Petyr relationship with Sansa is a miserable imitation of blood relations, a parody of incest.
Sansa does not exist as a person to Petyr, she is merely his doll that he likes to play with, he solipsizes her and tries to erase her past (as Ned Stark's daughter) to fit her into his fantasy.

chris999, on 16 March 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

Sansa doesnt have to "love" Littlefinger to marry him. Only the commonfolk marry for love.

Sansa will accept his proposal because of political reasons. If they are married, they will have a powerful enough force to win back Winterfell for Sansa, or even win the entire kingdom if they want to. It wont be for love.

Yes but all the actual hard power will come from herself-her claim to the North, her claim to Riverrun, her status as the mother of Lord Eyrie (presumably through Harold Harding). So Littlefinger has nothing real to offer her. It would go...
Littlefinger: oh lady of Riverrun, oh lady of Winterfell or Lady Protector of the Eyrie, marry me after all the wonderful things I have done for you.
Sansa: I love the power, but you did betray my father and started a war that ruined my life (in that it destroyed things that I actually value, like my brothers, sister, mother and uncle) when you poisoned Jon Arryn and lied to my mother . So I am going to have you killed in a humiliating sexualised manner. Hahaha.
Littlefinger: Lothar Brune! Somebody all my loyal retainers! Save me from this treacherous cow who it transpires has her own identity, history and inner life quite opposed to my own.
Retainer 1: I am sworn to Riverrun and hate the way your war basically got Edmure and the other Tully's killed.
Retainer 2: I am sworn to the Eyrie and I hate the way you poisoned Jon Arryn and probably poisoned Sweet Robin and Harold Harding.
Retainer 3: Lol. I am sworn to Winterfell, what possible hope did you have of gaining my support after you betrayed Ned Stark?
Soft power is all well and good, but in the end it is hard power that does the work...

Edited by voodooqueen126, 16 March 2012 - 04:58 AM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

voodooqueen126, on 16 March 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

Wishing that Petyr would get over his obsession with Sansa, is like wishing Humbert Humbert to get over his obsession with Lolita and simply be a witty linguist and professor...

More like wishing Gatsby would get over Daisy and just be a robber Barron.  The relationship with Lolita was the only interesting thing about

Humbert Humbert

[David Selig]

The Swaggering Bravo, on 15 March 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

I hold to the position that Littlefinger will tell Sansa to support Stannis. Once the Tyrells abandon Tommen, Stannis would actually be winning for once and would have most of the support of a formidable army once more - The North, Vale, and Riverlands. He will indeed have their allegiance if he says he will take revenge against the Freys and will restore things to the way it was (Same lords) pre-war, this time with Robert's rightful heir. The deciding point will be the Tyrells, because they could either support Tommen still, Stannis, or Aegon. Knowing their history, though, it could very well be Aegon.

I highly doubt it. Stannis doesn't like LF at all (remember that talk about Slynt's bribery scheme which Stannis knew was backed by LF - this kind of thing is not something Stannis would tolerate as King)  and LF knows it, which is one of the reasons LF betrayed Ned when he insisted on putting Stannis on the Iron Throne. Not to mention that Stannis has probably heard by now that it was LF who was instrumental for his defeat at Blackwater by brokering the Tyrell - Lannister alliance - he's unlikely to forgive that.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

David Selig, on 16 March 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

I highly doubt it. Stannis doesn't like LF at all (remember that talk about Slynt's bribery scheme which Stannis knew was backed by LF - this kind of thing is not something Stannis would tolerate as King)  and LF knows it, which is one of the reasons LF betrayed Ned when he insisted on putting Stannis on the Iron Throne. Not to mention that Stannis has probably heard by now that it was LF who was instrumental for his defeat at Blackwater by brokering the Tyrell - Lannister alliance - he's unlikely to forgive that.

I think that Stannis would overlook those for the time being if he could win him the Vale. And regardless of that, he would tell Sansa to do that and support him, and he has nothing against her.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Oh, oh, I know what if he marries, Sansa, Margery and Cersei in the fashion of slaver's bay.  Or takes two of them for saltwives.

[LordBloodraven]

chris999, on 16 March 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

Sansa doesnt have to "love" Littlefinger to marry him. Only the commonfolk marry for love.

Sansa will accept his proposal because of political reasons. If they are married, they will have a powerful enough force to win back Winterfell for Sansa, or even win the entire kingdom if they want to. It wont be for love.

Would Sansa accept to be used to wage war in the North and to fight against his brothers (Bran and Rickon)? Littlefinger sees her just as his toy, a pawn in his game, and I don't think it will end good for him.