The Latest News
Connect with Us
Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones Frey Women's T-Shirt
Women’s T-Shirt House Frey
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


The Forge of Darkness by Steven Erikson

Kharkanas Trilogy

  • Please log in to reply
115 replies to this topic

#61 LTW

LTW

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:43 AM

View PostWrathOfNederlandsVoetbal, on 26 July 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

[spoilers for House of Chains and I think Toll the Hounds]

Oh and Dassem Ultor was present at the Chaining several thousand years in the past but was still apparently a mortal roughly 100 years in the past when he was the imperial champion.

(Someone please correct me if I've made mistakes, it's been a long time since I've read Malazan and I haven't yet finished the series)

This is not an Erikson mistake as there has been multiple Chainings and Dassem Ultor (along with Kellanved and Dancer) just participated in the latest one which took place sometime during the last century

#62 WrathOfTinyKittens

WrathOfTinyKittens

    Snuggly, with claws

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,332 posts

Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:24 AM

Ah ok. Thanks for the correction!

#63 Werthead

Werthead

    Immortal Robot from the Future

  • Forum Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,366 posts

Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:23 PM

Quote

To me that reads like the author repeats his well known pattern of inserting "get out of jail free" cards. Every time this happens internal consistency is ruined a little bit more, and this just reads as excuses. It's not new, we've seen him say this before, I know. Doesn't make it better than hearing it for the first time though. He doesn't care and doesn't think internal consistency is important. I disagree ( not just for Malazan, but alternate world creations in general). It is why many here on this forum have logged off from this series.

I think that between Ronald D. Moore, Erikson, Damon Lindelof & Carlton Cuse, the writers of Mass Effect 3 and, most recently, Damon Lindelof (again!) and Ridley Scott, the "It's deliberately ambiguous!!!" excuse is really starting to wear thin, and wear out the patience of SFF fans.

#64 williamjm

williamjm

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,769 posts

Posted 28 July 2012 - 05:48 PM

View Postsciborg2, on 26 July 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Yeah, do people really care about the dates? Or are there worse inconsistencies, like with mysteries of the gods or something?

I don't really mind the inconsistencies in the mythology or ancient history (I think it can be valid to have contradictory information in that sort of scenario) or some of the more trivial inconsistencies such as a character changing gender between books. Some of the mistakes are a bit more glaring, however, a significant character in Toll The Hounds being about 8 years old when we saw his birth in a book set about a year before was particularly obvious (it's been a while so I can't remember if those numbers are right, but it definitely didn't make any sense).

Quote

Is Steven Erikson unaware that he is really bad at consistency?  Like, the worst writer in fantasy when it comes to consistency.  Seriously, is there any writer out there that is worse then him?

Late-era Raymond E. Feist has some huge inconsistencies between books, at times he seemed to change the members of the Kingdom's Royal Family about every book or so.

#65 Gormenghast

Gormenghast

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 787 posts

Posted 28 July 2012 - 09:15 PM

View PostWerthead, on 28 July 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

I think that between Ronald D. Moore, Erikson, Damon Lindelof & Carlton Cuse, the writers of Mass Effect 3 and, most recently, Damon Lindelof (again!) and Ridley Scott, the "It's deliberately ambiguous!!!" excuse is really starting to wear thin, and wear out the patience of SFF fans.

I think in Malazan there's usually a distinctive line between what is supposed to be ambiguous for a reason and what is actually a plain mistake.

I think by the time the trilogy is over we'll know the same about the new material too.

#66 Tarant

Tarant

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 387 posts

Posted 29 July 2012 - 03:28 AM

I'm actually going to give Forge of Darkness a shot.  The ancient flashbacks and the mythology of the world were actually what I liked best about his writing and since this book is suppose to be centered on that stuff I will try reading it.

"I think in Malazan there's usually a distinctive line between what is supposed to be ambiguous for a reason and what is actually a plain mistake."

I don't think so.  In my discussions with Malazan fans there are always a lot of areas where people can't agree whether its a mistake or deliberate.

#67 Calibandar

Calibandar

    Herald of Winter

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,214 posts

Posted 29 July 2012 - 06:37 AM

Tor.com has the first chapter up to give you a taste. I've decided not to acquire at this point, might change my mind in the future.

#68 Tarant

Tarant

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 387 posts

Posted 29 July 2012 - 12:00 PM

That's ok.  I'm getting it from the library.  If I don't like it I won't loss anything.

#69 Arthmail

Arthmail

    Gnome Team 6

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,003 posts

Posted 29 July 2012 - 12:27 PM

View PostGormenghast, on 28 July 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

I think by the time the trilogy is over we'll know the same about the new material too.

Which is to say sweet fuck all.

#70 pat5150

pat5150

    The original Lemming of Discord! Accept no substitute!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,774 posts

Posted 31 July 2012 - 08:17 AM

New extract featuring Anomander Rake, Silchas Ruin, and Andarist available on the Hotlist!

Follow this link to read it!

Patrick

#71 kcf

kcf

    Illiterati

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,929 posts

Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:13 PM

So, I finally got my review done for FOD. I thought it was pretty great, though it's obviously only the beginning. I can't wait to see where it goes from here. An excerpt of the review is below (yes, it's long - around 1700 words, and there is much more at the blog).

Oh, and what was going to be an addendum to the review sort of grew into a rant all it's own.

Quote

For fans of Malazan, many of the characters of Forge of Darkness are well known from their roles in the Malazan series. Foremost of course is Anomander and his two brothers, but there are many other of the Tiste that we’ve only seen hints of before, many of the elder gods (though before they are recognized as elder or even gods), a few Jaghut and there is mention of such races/species as the Thel Akai, Forkrulkan, Jheck and Jhelarkan, the Shake, and the dog runners (Imass). I predict that really hardcore fans will be both ecstatic and a bit enraged by Erikson’s handling of characters long known and loved (to varying degrees). The characters that we see here are different – first and foremost, they hundreds of thousands of years younger, and quite often, very literally young. They are in development, they haven’t yet seen the millennia of hardship and pain to come, the power of magic has not yet come into the world, the gods are relatively unknown, and the realities of mortality and immortality are not comprehended. Memories from the original series are likely not as factual as fans would like, perspective is always key and Erikson immediately plays a ‘get out of jail free’ card at the start with a Prelude that explains that this text is a story told by a poet who happily admits to presenting it the way prefers to so that the thematic goals are properly achieved. Oh how this enrages fans and brings me joy (but much more on this here).


But, to bring the circle back around, I believe that this is a must read for fans of the Malazan world. I imagine that most fans are like myself and have forgotten many of the details of the massive, million-work plus series. The generally small supporting roles played by and often vague references to the Tiste we see in Forge of Darkness are equally, forgotten, misremembered and remembered in the fog of the aftermath of the Malazan series. And that’s fine – we get to meet them all again for the first time and in addition, we get to see the shattering of the ancient world and the birth of the one the series takes place in. And it’s all told though Erikson’s brilliant writing.


In Forge of Darkness Erikson shows a deeply moving and tragic beginning of the end of a civilization. In many ways this story belongs in the Dying Earth sub-genre. Not only is the Tiste civilization moving toward a civil war, but the entire world is in the beginning stages of being remade. And the forces behind this inevitable decent equate those of the human condition that Erikson writes to in everything he does. The Tiste civilization is destroying itself through all of the realities of human motivation – power, segregation of society, religious fervor, neglect, ambition, etc. The land has been destroyed, used up. The spoils of a great victory in war prove to be poison. And as always, the best of intentions have tragic consequences.


The most evident of the frameworks that Erikson chooses to explore the death of a people and world is through family. Almost every relationship shown in the book boils down to that of family – parenthood, mothers, fathers, kids, bastards, father and mother figures, absence, brother, sister, grandmother, etc. This exploration of family is powerful and not easily pinned down, but everything comes down to it. From the over-arching rise of the religious figureheads (and gods) of Mother Dark and Father Light, to the evil daughters of Draconus, to the his troubled bastard son, the Purake brothers and their devotion to each other, the unhealthy love of a painter for his sister, and so on. Civilization and indeed the entire world is presented as an extended family, though not necessarily a traditional one. All of the pain, love and dysfunction coalesce into something tragic, though, if I know Erikson as I think I do, ultimately hopeful.


Through this Erikson explores some of the concepts that human nature (and the fantasy genre) tends to hold in high regard – justice, grief, vengeance, right vs. wrong, aristocracy, sexuality, sacrifice and others. These explorations often come from the minds and conversations of people that many would not associate with such deep explorations – the young, the soldiers and even the servants.


But, no worries for those craving action, there is plenty of action, though it flows at metered pace. There are quests across alien, desolate lands. Creatures emerge from the Vitr. Battles are fought, slaughter rendered. Death comes, magic descends and a proud son greets the Lord of Hate, who writes an unending suicide note.

Full Review


#72 Werthead

Werthead

    Immortal Robot from the Future

  • Forum Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,366 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 04:35 PM

An author who cannot keep his creation under control, invents bullshit reasons to try to handwave problems away and then blames the audience for 'not getting it' is not a particularly good author, it has to be said.

The Steven Erikson who wrote Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice was a truly fantastic fantasy author. The one who's been knocking around for the last few years is an altogether less impressive and less interesting figure, and who grows less so with every increasingly egotistical interview and blog post he makes in which he rails against his readers' apparent stupidity. I think it would be more fruitful if Erikson actually analysed the reasons why the series has not taken off more successfully (and, particularly, why he seems to have almost as few female readers left as Bakker after Dust of Dreams) and worked on improving those areas, rather than behaving with such petulence. Another year or two of this and we'll have a new Terry Goodkind on our hands.

#73 Gormenghast

Gormenghast

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 787 posts

Posted 26 August 2012 - 10:19 AM

Underlining this, because the problem is that a number of people just misunderstand everything Erikson says in interviews and simply hear what they want to hear, instead of what is being said:

Quote

Steve Lundin: I should probably clarify my statement that 'it's not that important' refers not to 'it doesn't matter to me' but that most concerns regarding continuity in the new trilogy actually have solutions that will make sense.


#74 Werthead

Werthead

    Immortal Robot from the Future

  • Forum Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,366 posts

Posted 26 August 2012 - 12:08 PM

Quote

Underlining this, because the problem is that a number of people just misunderstand everything Erikson says in interviews and simply hear what they want to hear, instead of what is being said:

Not at all. What is being said is extremely clear: Erikson has a series of massive chips on his shoulder about his own lack of success (and this lack is only relative: anyone else who'd sold over a million books would be pretty happy about it instead of moaning it's nowhere near Jordan/Martin/Goodkind numbers) and the fact a few critics don't give him a free pass on everything, and has spent increasing amounts of time going on about them in the last few years, as well as using his books themselves to rip on the same issues. And when he gets called on it, certain people rush around like headless chickens crying, "People aren't listening to what he's saying, why aren't they bowing to his literary majesty, waaah!"

Anyone who thinks that that kind of bollocks is going to fly around unchallenged is sorely mistaken.

#75 Jussi

Jussi

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,299 posts

Posted 26 August 2012 - 01:12 PM

View PostWerthead, on 26 August 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

What is being said is extremely clear: Erikson has a series of massive chips on his shoulder about his own lack of success (and this lack is only relative: anyone else who'd sold over a million books would be pretty happy about it instead of moaning it's nowhere near Jordan/Martin/Goodkind numbers) and the fact a few critics don't give him a free pass on everything,

Wert, you shold remember that these aren't facts but your opinions. A good example of this is the new introduction to Gardens of the Moon. You have big problems with the new preface, but I agree with what Erikson is saying and consider it a good piece of writing.

#76 End of Disc One

End of Disc One

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 546 posts

Posted 26 August 2012 - 02:55 PM

Well there's one blogger who probably won't be giving Forge of Darkness a positive review.

Also there is absolutely nothing wrong with the new introduction to GotM.  This forum blows it way out of proportion.

#77 Zach H

Zach H

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 420 posts

Posted 26 August 2012 - 06:15 PM

View PostEnd of Disc One, on 26 August 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:



Also there is absolutely nothing wrong with the new introduction to GotM.  This forum blows it way out of proportion.
Yeah, I was expecting something entirely different based on reactions around here to it.

Epic Pooh and clomping nerdism didn't offend me either, though.

#78 Gormenghast

Gormenghast

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 787 posts

Posted 26 August 2012 - 07:45 PM

View PostWerthead, on 26 August 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

Erikson has a series of massive chips on his shoulder about his own lack of success.

You can't seriously think even for a second that minor timeline inconsistencies are all that prevent Erikson not reaching the volume of sales of Martin or Jordan.

If this was even remotely true, Erikson would be busy making his stuff more palatable for the greater public instead of going in the other direction.



#79 kcf

kcf

    Illiterati

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,929 posts

Posted 26 August 2012 - 09:53 PM

Wow, Wert

That's the biggest piece of flaming crap I've read around here in a quite a while (though I generally try to avoid such posts) and something much more at home in a Goodkind thread. I'm sort of surprised that you didn't work the Nazi angle in somehow.

Generally, such extreme and hyperbolic expressions of opinion saw more about the views of the one espousing the opinion. Anyway, as for any of the substance behind that hyperbole, I'm not really interested in saying anymore than we disagree and moving on.

#80 Zach H

Zach H

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 420 posts

Posted 26 August 2012 - 10:23 PM

Erikson better watch it or he'll only get four out of five stars.