Cersei is an Idiot?

[Lion of Judah]

Cersei is an idiot...this is known.

[Lemore]

Ned is an honourable man, once he gave his vow, he'd keep it.

Cersei's sharp enough to understand this.

She is also smart enough to have thought of the wildfire before Tyrion, although he perfected the idea.

As well as the fact that Cersei had his daughter

[Kosh Naranek]

I don't think Cersei is a drooling idiot, but rather that she thinks all power is derived from fear. Plus, she seems to think that Lannister lands and monies + their hold on the Iron Throne gives her a blank check to do as she pleases.

She is blind to certain subleties of power that she could have learned from observing Ned or the Tyrells.

Ned seemed to have a stewardship view. He wanted to be a good steward and make sure the prosperity and well being of of those under his care. (Of course, to have that mindset you must believe that other humans have inherent value other than their use for your ends.) The ripple effect of Ned's philosophy toward ruling is still being felt in the books. The Mtn Clans and most of the Northern houses are still scrambling to right the wrongs done to the Starks. Would they be so eager if Ned had been like Cersei? I think not. Tradition may bolster the Starks somewhat, but the Boltons and their conspirators are feeling the backlash of Ned's legacy right now. Heck - It is even annoying Stannis and he is fighting on their side. :D

The Tyrells also court the goodwill of the people, but go about it more out of cunning than real care, in my opinion. For example, Margeary set herself up as a lady bountiful in King's Landing. She ran around handing out bread and good cheer. This endeared her and house Tyrell to the smallfolk. Smart. (The Tyrells were the ones that caused the shortage in the first place, but you can dispell all that with some good smallfolk PR. The smallfolk probably just blamed the Baratheons any way.)

Know what does not endear you? Ordering the slaughter of children. Bringing about war, for whatever reason, when your husband's reign was marked by peace and prosperity. (Granted Robert got nature's boon in a very long Summer.)

Tywin made good use of fear. That is why the Rains of Castemere was sang every other song at Joff's wedding, but Tywin could also temper that fear. He was hard and used horrible weapons to achieve his ends (Bloody Mummers/Gregor). However, he had long range vision and did not discount his allies.

Cersei cannot see what is plain before her in most cases. She doggedly goes after Margeary with no thought as to what the loss of Tyrell troops and money would do to Tommen's claim.

They are making inroads into Stannis' power base. That is all well and good, but she squanders opportunities to shore up the kingdom to keep bleeding the enemies in her head. Tywin would not send men to the wall because he did not want to help the Starks in any way. Fair enough. They were at war. Cersei however refuses to send aid to key LOYAL lands just because she wants to destabilize the Tyrells, a house she needs to hold on to the throne. Rather than think on the long term consequences, she is eaten alive with petty grudges.

Troops do not come out of thin air, unless you have money for sellswords, which brings me to the next bit...

Yes, the Lannister seem to have vast amounts of resources, but praytell, how thinly stretched are they now? They have been fighting a war for months. That means troops and the money to equip those troops. There were/are at least 3 Lannister armies in the field. That probably means that the Lannister lands are suffering the same problem as the North. Most of their capable men marched out in the first or even second wave. What to they have left? Old men and green boys.

Then she refuses to honor the kingdom's debts and re-arms the Faith. Both were initially tied to cash flow issues. But, those blunders were/are colossal. Those would be stupid moves in the best of times. She pulls a total Scarlett O'Hara and goes all " I will think about that tomorrow." My mouth actually flew open when I read those sections of the books. She has undermined the legitimacy of her son's rule single handedly.

Giving the Faith troops that owe zero loyalty to the crown? What happens when the crown and Faith disagree? That is right. You have another enemy to fight. An potential enemy that now has a powerbase totally independent of the crown.

[R'hllor's Bastard]

Littlefinger sums up Cersei perfectly when he says something like....

Cersei likes to think she is smart but she is totally predictable.

all her strength comes from, her family, her wealth and her beauty.

Her beauty is the only one that is truly hers and that will soon abandon her

She craves power, but has no idea what to do with it when she gets it.

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

She is like Aerys Mk. II with less political nous.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

The issue at hand after that bit of

psychoanalysis on Cersei is whether she is a different character in Feast than she was in the first three books. While Cersei is able to outwit Ned Stark and Robert in GoT and seems to come across as a Machiavellian mastermind. It is my contention that Cersei was always an idiot. And that any perception of her as being astute doesn't last long into Clash. Cersei only looks clever when compared to Ned and Robert who both cheated off Hodor in order to get through high school.

Presented for the consideration of the midnight society:

Cersei is an Idiot:

“If it was Father who’d been taken captive, Jaime would not be sitting by idly, I promise you.”

Jaime would be battering his host to bloody bits against the walls of Riverrun, and the Others take their chances. He never did have any patience, no more than you, sweet sister. “Not all of us can be as bold as Jaime, but there are other ways to win wars. Harrenhal is strong and well situated.”

“And King’s Landing is not, as we both know perfectly well. While Father plays lion and fawn with the Stark boy, Renly marches up the roseroad. He could be at our gates any day now!”

“The city will not fall in a day. From Harrenhal it is a straight, swift march down the kingsroad. Renly will scarce have unlimbered his siege engines before Father takes him in the rear. His host will be the hammer, the city walls the anvil. it makes a lovely picture.”

Cersei’s green eyes bored into him, wary, yet hungry for the reassurance he was feeding her. “And if Robb Stark marches?”

“Harrenhal is close enough to the fords of the Trident so that Roose Bolton cannot bring the northern foot across to join with the Young Wolf’s horse. Stark cannot march on King’s Landing without taking Harrenhal first, and even with Bolton he is not strong enough to do that.” Tyrion

tried his most winning smile. “Meanwhile Father lives off the fat of the riverlands, while our uncle Stafford gathers fresh levies at the Rock.”

Cersei regarded him suspiciously. “How could you know all this? Did Father tell you his intentions when he sent you here?”

“No. I glanced at a map.”

A complete failure to grasp tactical and strategic implications of geography.

“Yes, yes,” the queen said impatiently, “but first we must stop this filth from spreading further. The council must issue an edict. Any man heard speaking of incest or calling Joff a bastard should lose his tongue for it.”

“A prudent measure,” said Grand Maester Pycelle, his chain of office clinking as he nodded.

“A folly,” sighed Tyrion. “When you tear out a man’s tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you’re only telling the world that you fear what he might say.”

“So what would you have us do?” his sister demanded.

“Very little. Let them whisper, they’ll grow bored with the tale soon enough. Any man with a thimble of sense will see it for a clumsy attempt to justify usurping the crown. Does Stannis offer proof? How could he, when it never happened?” Tyrion gave his sister his sweetest smile.

“That’s so,” she had to say. “Still.”

“Your Grace, your brother has the right of this.” Petyr Baelish steepled his fingers. “If we attempt to silence this talk, we only lend it credence. Better to treat it with contempt, like the pathetic lie it is. And meantime, fight fire with fire.”

Cersei gave him a measuring look. “What sort of fire?”

“A tale of somewhat the same nature, perhaps. But more easily believed. Lord Stannis has spent most of his marriage apart from his wife. Not that I fault him, I’d do the same were I married to Lady Selyse. Nonetheless, if we put it about that her daughter is baseborn and Stannis a cuckold, well... the smallfolk are always eager to believe the worst of their lords, particularly those as stern, sour, and prickly proud as Stannis Baratheon.”

“He has never been much loved, that’s true.” Cersei considered a moment. “So we pay him back in his own coin. Yes, I like this. Who can we name as Lady Selyse’s lover? She has two brothers, I believe. And one of her uncles has been with her on Dragonstone all this time...”

“Ser Axell Florent is her castellan.” Loath as Tyrion was to admit it, Littlefinger’s scheme had promise. Stannis had never been enamored of his wife, but he was bristly as a hedgehog where his honor was concerned and mistrustful by nature. If they could sow discord between him and his followers, it could only help their cause. “The child has the Florent ears, I’m told.”

Littlefinger gestured languidly. “A trade envoy from Lys once observed to me that Lord Stannis must love his daughter very well, since he’d erected hundreds of statues of her all along the walls of Dragonstone. ‘My lord’ I had to tell him, ‘those are gargoyles.”‘ He chuckled. “Ser Axell might serve for Shireen’s father, but in my experience, the more bizarre and shocking a tale the more apt it is to be repeated. Stannis keeps an especially grotesque fool, a lackwit with a tattooed face.”

Grand Maester Pycelle gaped at him, aghast. “Surely you do not mean to suggest that Lady Selyse would bring a fool into her bed?”

“You’d have to be a fool to want to bed Selyse Florent,” said Littlefinger. “Doubtless Patchface reminded her of Stannis. And the best lies contain within them nuggets of truth, enough to give a listener pause. As it happens, this fool is utterly devoted to the girl and follows her everywhere. They even look somewhat alike. Shireen has a mottled, halffrozen face as well.”

Pycelle was lost. “But that is from the greyscale that near killed her as a babe, poor thing.”

“I like my tale better,” said Littlefinger, “and so will the smallfolk. Most of them believe that if a woman eats rabbit while pregnant, her child will be born with long floppy ears.”

Cersei smiled the sort of smile she customarily reserved for Jaime. “Lord Petyr, you are a wicked creature.”

“Thank you, Your Grace.”

An inability to wage an effective propaganda war

Ser Kevan cleared his throat. “I would sooner have Petyr Baelish ruling the Eyrie than any of Lady Lysa’s other suitors. Yohn Royce, Lyn Corbray, Horton Redfort... these are dangerous men, each in his own way. And proud. Littlefinger may be clever, but he has neither high birth nor skill at arms. The lords of the Vale will never accept such as their liege.” He looked to his brother. When Lord Tywin nodded, he continued. “And there is this - Lord Petyr continues to demonstrate his loyalty. Only yesterday he brought us word of a Tyrell plot to spirit Sansa Stark off to Highgarden for a visit and there marry her to Lord Mace’s eldest son, Willas.”

“Littlefinger brought you word?” Tyrion leaned against the table. “Not our master of whisperers? How interesting.”

Cersei looked at their uncle in disbelief. “Sansa is my hostage. She goes nowhere without my leave.”

“Leave you must perforce grant, should Lord Tyrell ask,” their father pointed out. “To refuse him would be tantamount to declaring that we did not trust him. He would take offense.”

“Let him. What do we care?”

Bloody fool, thought Tyrion. “Sweet sister,” he explained patiently, “offend Tyrell and you offend Redwyne, Tarly, Rowan, and Hightower as well, and perhaps start them wondering whether Robb Stark might not be more accommodating of their desires.”

“I will not have the rose and the direwolf in bed together,” declared Lord Tywin. “We must forestall him.”

Complete disregard for the delicacy of her tenuous diplomatic position.

Briefly, yes I think Cersei has always been a bit of an idiot. In Game of Thrones, she does come across as highly cunning but the only person she truly managed to outwit in the first book was Robert, and let's face it, that was not difficult. After all, he was married to her for the best part of 14 years and failed to notice that none of their supposed children had inherited any of his traits. It took Ned and John Arryn a quick trip to the library and they had already worked it out! No doubt, Varys, Stannis and Renly were also in the know.

Also, Cersei didn't outwit Ned, he may have been foolish to offer her the choice to escape KL with her children but he did so in good faith because he was an honorable man, and she gave him no reason to suspect that she would acquiesce to this offer.

While I think Cersei is a very intelligent schemer, she lacks the common sense and foresight of her brother Tyrion. For instance, in ACOK, she fails to see that Renly's death will have catastrophic consequences as it means that all his followers will flock to Stannis and thus create a unified opposition. Furthermore, she gives herself a whole lot of trouble in trying to set up Margaery after the PW - especially, considering the Tyrells' popularity in KL and previous alliance with the Lannisters.

While not completely devoid of compassion on occasion, she is on the whole a conniving character whom many readers will no doubt, be only too eager to see the back of. From a psychoanalysing perspective though, I find some aspects of her personality interesting. She is increasingly becoming rash, impulsive, paranoid and suspicious and has a habit of turning even those whom offer their support, against her. She is embittered but I do get the distinct impression that she has issues with men and sexual equality. This is not surprising, seeing as she was in fairness, very unhappy in her marriage to Robert which could surely only have compounded her harshness and distrust of all around her. She also seems to relish her role as Queen's regent and her independence, so while yes, I do think she has probably always exhibited some degree of idiocy, I do also think that some events have played a role in forming her character, and wonder whether she would have turned out all that different if certain events would not have transpired in the manner that they did.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

I think she's always been an idiot and it's just been revealing itself as she's gotten more and more emotional. Even in COK, Tyrion realizes explicitly that she loses all cunning when she gets angry. She's only had more and more reason to be angry as the books have progressed.

An idiot may be harsh because she actually has the potential to be smarter than many of the stupid characters in ASOIAF but the combination of extreme emotional pressure and her increasing alcohol consumption has been turning her into a walking (naked) disaster.

[Master Forel's Fro]

I think she was LF's creature, like mother like son what was that he said " leading the horse to water" or something like that, I think she 'seemed' clever because she had a clever man in her imploy. Once LF left KL we saw the real cercei making her own decisions.

[KOM]

Cersei outwits Ned, Robert. --- WOW!

AFFC/ADWD is welcoming Cersei to the big leagues.

[Mrs_Darcy]

I think one of the main problems of Cersei is that she thinks she is all knowing, while in reality she is not. There are some instances in AFFC, where she makes stupid decisions, because she does not know about the institutions she is dealing with.

For instances:

- Her decision to pay the Iron Bank of Braavos (Jon has heard, that it can be very dangerous to defer on your payments ("The Iron Bank will have its due), but Cersei, who is twice as old knows nothing of the banks reputation and acts accordingly)

-All members of her Small Council found it remarkable, when they heard that the Golden Company had broken its contract, but she did not know it and just said that Sellswords change sides all the time.

(Ironically she gives her fleet to a sellsail, but that is another topic.)

[Guest]

Why do all people forget that Cersei didn't want Ned beheaded, just wanted him sent to the Wall?

Well, there, I reminded you. However, there's a bit of idiocy in this as well. Who's to say Ned couldn't spread word about Cersei's incest on the way to the Wall or on the Wall? So, Cersei le idiot.

I think ppl remember it, it's simply that everyone believes she should not have allowed the situation to be manuvered into a beheading. I think Tywin even comments on how she sucks at handling Joff at one point.

[IRON BANK]

Cersie: Where to start, incest right off the bat disgusting not even needed, then does it multiple times, justifies it in her own mind and doesn't even try to stop. people argue she tries to protect her children thats a false belief, because the way she brought them in was the most dangerous way possible for a lady in her position illegitimately. She has a duty as a noble woman and cheats on her husband,which you might not hold that much against her but still a bad thing to do considering he's the freaking king of westeros. who despite all his bad traits( by the way aren't even in the same realm of cersies) she schemes and plots to marry any way. you made your bed Cersie literally now lie in it, instead of your brothers who you loved while you pursued Robert. I don't even want to go into leadership capability because if it wasn't for Tyrion. Cersie would have been done a long time ago, Oh screw it why not leadership capability: Cersie seriously thinks letting her future son Joffrey (next in line to be king) run around aimless, ignorant of compassion and forsight is the best way to go even after what shes been through w/ Robert. she diplayed that several times by siding with him on the way to Kl on the KR, her failure to let Loras or any one train him properly, and a complete lack of and discipinary actions, against teasing Tommen, treating Sansa badly, or being able to lead from small councile venues or direct knowledge of any open book. Cersie also shows imcompetence on the ability to recognize who her real enemies are the way she treats the Tyrells is just an utter disaster. In some twisted way I think she believes, that she will live forever. Because to sideline Margery your future queen is a terrible position when 3 out of seven kingdoms are in open revolt aagainst you.

[The Duke]

She is also smart enough to have thought of the wildfire before Tyrion, although he perfected the idea.

Her plan with the wildfire was to have the troops handle it for the first time once the battle started. She had no notion of training the men like Tyrion did. She would have burned Kings Landing to the ground killing everyone inside the city walls more than likely.

[mrunderhill]

She probably would have a decently high IQ and she is cunning, but rash, short sighted and acts on impulse. So her actions are similar to that of an idiot.

[Master Forel's Fro]

She probably would have a decently high IQ and she is cunning, but rash, short sighted and acts on impulse. So her actions are similar to that of an idiot.

That sounds like jaime too before he had his hand cut off and he started using his brain. Maybe she needs something cut off too.

[mrunderhill]

That sounds like jaime too before he had his hand cut off and he started using his brain. Maybe she needs something cut off too.

Maybe the humiliation will serve. She valued her beauty and seductive powers the way Jaime valued his right hand.

[Onions4all]

Okay, well, if Cersei isn't and idiot, then she's clearly a joke. All of her "cunning" in the previous books was luck, plain and simple, and Tyrion schooled her in a matter of months, maybe even weeks. Don't get me wrong, I think her chapters in AFfC were totally hilarious and entertaining, but she made some major, glaring, obvious fuck-ups. She probably fucked-up more than any other character in this series. The fact that she's still alive is pretty ridiculous.

Alienating pretty much all of your allies, many of which were your own family members? Ha! Filling you court with, and then trusting the shadiest motherfuckers this side of the Narrow Sea? HA! Starting an intrigue war with the Tyrells, the most powerful and populous house currently in play? HAHAHA! Ignoring those rumors of a Targaryen heiress who just hatched a trio of dragons that she used to conquer a huge portion of the neighboring continent? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Allowing the HS to re-instate the Faith Militant? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! SHOWING UP AT THE GREAT SEPT OF BAELOR AFTER YOU SOLD OUT YOUR CAT'S PAW? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! And the best part is, for most of the book she was walking around King's Landing, thinking she was The. Shit. It was just too much. TOO MUCH, I SAY!

This sums it up.

Cersei is an idiot who just has been constantly lucky to be saved by her smarter kin, whether it be Tywin or Tyrion. Once Tywin is dead and Tyrion flees, she has no one to mitigate or contain her endless series of follies... hence AFFC.

She didn't even outsmart Ned. Ned wanted to save the children and she just happened to be a morally bankrupt POS. it doesn't make her cunning, just a horrible person.

And I agree, the funniest part of it all is how she actually believes she's smart. I love the addition in the show of Tywin saying as much.

Her being alive is GRRM trolling everybody. There's a huge inequity between the mistakes "good characters" like the Starks are allowed to make and crappy people like Cersei and the Freys and still survive. That's one of the issues I have with the series. Yes, Robb made two huge mistakes in marrying Westerling and sending Theon and Cat had plenty of blunders but there are countless blunders from other characters that have not cost them their lives.

It is only MUCH later that Cersei and the Freys actually have repercussions for their actions.

Ramsay is not even close to a smart man. He made a few little deceptions but he's too sadistic, impulsive and cruel to have sustained himself this long. He's yet another one who's not dead because of his kin (Roose) saving him from himself.

[Victor227]

Cersei's strength is her 'low cunning'. She's a thug basically. She won't bat an eyelash at having someone tortured or murdered, and will often succeed in doing so. She sees this as her route to power. Only thing is, once she -has- actual power, she has no clue how to use it. She trusts no one (an admirable trait), and tends not to rely on people she wouldn't be willing to discard (everyone), but she doesn't know how to turn it off. She has no clue what ruling is. All she knows is short-term schemes and plans where everyone does what she says, mayhem is wrought, and an enemy is brought low. She doesn't have the first idea about governing.

She doesn't know how to nurture an alliance, or foster good will. She's used to having the money and position to secure both of those automatically, because when they looked at her, they didn't see someone making decisions. Now though, that's not enough. She has to be respected as a leader, not just a Lannister. She's also not used to having to look at the results of plans months or years down the line, no long-term planning. That's not to say however, that she doesn't have good ideas. The Wildfire in defense of King's Landing is something that Tyrion never even fathomed, but when she put it on the table, he took a look at it and went 'it won't work like this, but I can figure out -how- to make it work'. Likewise, most of her plans in AFFC were good ideas that suffered from sloppy short-term-oriented execution. The Faith Militant -could- have been a useful tool instead of a power-hand-off to the Faith (as is, it still was a huge boon to the Crown's debts), and likewise, Margery -did- need to be destroyed. They killed Joffrey, and if things are threatened, they could easily do the same to Tommen. They aren't perfect allies. Even Kevan comes to realize that the Tyrells grasp and grasp every morsel that is put in front of them. Cersei's problem is that she did it all -alone- and did nothing but follow her first instincts because she sees any questioning of her (even by herself) as weakness.

In a sense, her and Tyrion would be the ultimate team-up if they ever cooperated with one another and had some mutual respect. Tyrion's a reader. He's good at refining plans, discerning plans, and getting into the 'a leads to b' reasoning. Cersei's got spontaneity in spades, and is great at coming up with raw ideas and getting things in the pipe. It's odd how they both have almost opposite views of Tywin even though both try to emulate him. When Tyrion thinks 'what would Tywin do?' his answer is 'something cold, devious, and brilliant', while Cersei's answer is 'something bold and swift that will strike terror in the hearts of our enemies, the hearts we don't cut out anyway'.

[silvananoir]

_{I've always believed that Cersei was shortsighted. She always considers the short term gains and never the longterm ramifications of her actions. For example if she had just given birth to ONE of Robert's children would Jon Arryn have looked into the royal bloodlines? Would Ned have discovered the truth if Jon had no reason to suspect the legitmacy of the royal heirs? Even if the North had gone to war for another reason like Catelyn taking Tyrion then Stannis and Renly would have supported her anyway because what notion would anyone have had that the heirs weren't Robert's? But no she wanted to be clever and liked the feeling of getting one over on Robert and even her father by having her and Jaime's children ruling over Westoros. And her final plot against Margery was stupid, the only family that you really have on your side is the Tyrell's why would you do plot against them.. Cersei's problem is that she wants results now without considering the consequences, she always acts the way she thinks a Lannister should be without the caution and foresight on what could happen once action has been taken.}

[Elfaki]

Cersei is an idiot right from the start. I mean when she went Winterfell she was screwing her brotherin a catsle which's Lord is best friend with her husband, the King, surrounded by people she did know who were loyal to the king's best bud, in a castle she had visited for the first time and she really didn't know anything about it, the layout, where people went, ect ect.... That they were discovered only by Bran was luck if you ask me.

Pretty much she made stupid-ass decisions from the get go of the series, is just that she had competent and way smarter people around her to not really let her "shine" or they manipulated with ease.