104 replies to this topic

[Lyanna Stark]

David Selig, on 16 March 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

My problem with her in AFFC is not that she did dumb stuff, she always had such moments throughout the series. It's that suddenly she decided to stop listening to the advice to anyone who's remotely competent. Even those examples in the OP prove it - when she had bad ideas earlier and somebody like Tyrion or LF explained it to her why she's wrong, she often changed her mind and chose a more sensible course of action. IN AFFC that changed - every time someone presented logical arguments against her ideas, she was all "Shut up, moron, I know best" and refused to even consider it.

Cersei of AFfC is a really stressed, paranoid and high strung woman. In a very short period of time, she has lost her son, her father and (albeit not dead) her brother/lover. Tyrion has fled and she is along with only her uncle. If I were Cersei. I'd be pretty paranoid as well.

It makes perfect sense that Cersei is not rational and composed. In fact, she often showed in previous books that she does crack under pressure, or at least that she behaves partly irrationally. Even though everyone else hated Joffrey more or less, Cersei didn't. He was her firstborn and I think people don't really comprehend what a blow that was to her.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Lyanna Stark, on 16 March 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Cersei of AFfC is a really stressed, paranoid and high strung woman. In a very short period of time, she has lost her son, her father and (albeit not dead) her brother/lover. Tyrion has fled and she is along with only her uncle. If I were Cersei. I'd be pretty paranoid as well.

It makes perfect sense that Cersei is not rational and composed. In fact, she often showed in previous books that she does crack under pressure, or at least that she behaves partly irrationally. Even though everyone else hated Joffrey more or less, Cersei didn't. He was her firstborn and I think people don't really comprehend what a blow that was to her.

There is also an additional issue. She has a high view of herself and in AFFC she finally succeeds to fulfill her power fantasy of being the one in charge without Tywin (or Tyrion as Tywin's representative hand) to restrict her. She finally has the power, and considering how stupidly positively she judges her abilities, that would play a role in how she reacts to others . To some extend she always wanted to be able to say to others to shut up and now she can. So her situation in AFFC is not exactly the same as previously even though she always made among other decisions,  stupid, risky decisions. Still if LF was in Kings Landing, he would probably throw an idea or two and she would probably listen to him once in a while because LF sort of knows to throw the kind of ideas in the way that Cersei likes and she is sort of fond of him.

Also one of the people who tried to give her some advice was Pycelle and their relationship became more and more worse, though more on her own faults than Pycelle's. Although even in AFFC she did listen to Jaime's advice about sending Mace at Storm's End.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 16 March 2012 - 09:31 AM.

[Francis Buck]

David Selig, on 16 March 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

My problem with her in AFFC is not that she did dumb stuff, she always had such moments throughout the series. It's that suddenly she decided to stop listening to the advice to anyone who's remotely competent. Even those examples in the OP prove it - when she had bad ideas earlier and somebody like Tyrion or LF explained it to her why she's wrong, she often changed her mind and chose a more sensible course of action. IN AFFC that changed - every time someone presented logical arguments against her ideas, she was all "Shut up, moron, I know best" and refused to even consider it.

The thing is, that was before her son and father were murdered by (whom she believes to be) Tyrion. So she has become so paranoid after their deaths that she doesn't even think sound advice from anyone can ever be genuine, including her uncle and Jaime. She sees lies and backstabbers everywhere, which makes her even more irrational than she was before.

[lewis92]

i enjoy her POV's when she thinks she is being smart but comes across arrogant and a bit of an idiot
a bit lke theons early chapters

[LordBloodraven]

David Selig, on 16 March 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

My problem with her in AFFC is not that she did dumb stuff, she always had such moments throughout the series. It's that suddenly she decided to stop listening to the advice to anyone who's remotely competent. Even those examples in the OP prove it - when she had bad ideas earlier and somebody like Tyrion or LF explained it to her why she's wrong, she often changed her mind and chose a more sensible course of action. IN AFFC that changed - every time someone presented logical arguments against her ideas, she was all "Shut up, moron, I know best" and refused to even consider it.

Well, in AFFC, she intended to "rule" and wasn't keen on sharing it. Plus she thought of herself as "Lord Tywin with teats".

[Valar_morg]

Calling her 'idiot' would be bit harsh ..

She is intelligent but impatient and rash ..  
and most of her mistakes came because she overestimated her abilities and refused to listen ..

But I do think she will make a strong comeback in WoW with her new acquired pieces Qyburn and Ser Robert Strong ..

[Vandalism]

She manipulated Kettleblacks and Lancels. Not much of a feat.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Vandalism, on 16 March 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

Well, we know that Robert would fuck her very painfully in bed. And that he vomitted on her once.

I didn't mention the beheading as being part of her folly.

[imany]

I don't see what was so bad about the boar. If it didn't work, I'm sure there was a Plan B. Perhaps alcohol poisoning

However, Cersei's irrational temper shows up right from AGoT. 'My son had a fight with a 9 year old girl and lost, how dare she! Off with her hand!' gg.

[Independent George]

Lord Littlefinger, on 16 March 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

Cersei only looks clever when compared to Ned and Robert who both cheated off Hodor in order to get through high school.

I love this line. I have explained to my friends that out-plotting Ned Stark is like the Special Olympics of politics, but this one is funnier and less offensive.

I agree about Cersei, but I do wonder if she'll be more formidable in WOW. When Jaime lost his hand, he learned humility and patience, thereby negating his two biggest weaknesses. What does Cersei learn from her traitor's walk? It can go either way - either she goes even more crazy and paranoid, or she learns the value of caution.

Edited by Independent George, 16 March 2012 - 11:16 AM.

[Silver Spearwife]

@Independent George I like that line, too. Even my mom laughed when I explained it to her, and she hates it when I talk about the series.

Cersei's problem is that she shares Jaime's arrogance. Cersei assumes that her strength is her political maneuvering, and never stops to actually learn the game, or be humbled enough to learn. Unlike Cersei, Tyrion put a lot of effort into gaining the intelligence he has now, and when other characters aren't smart enough to stay afloat, they're left to drown.

Her other problem, obviously, is her apparent inability to cope with the death of her son and father, which leaves her a paranoid mess and ultimately leads to the Walk of Shame. Someone mentioned that this may make her more dangerous by removing her arrogance, as it did with Jaime. This is a real possibility. The other possibility is that she's been thrown back into reality and reminded what's important: protecting her remaining children from Maggy's prophecy. This doesn't sound like Cersei, but then again, a cautious, collected, intelligent Cersei isn't particularly familiar either.

The one thing I would like to see would be the tables turn. There's been a lot of very detailed, in depth discussion in the forums regarding Sansa becoming a player, which she has very fair potential to do. Cersei, meanwhile, appears to be losing her hold on the game. Cersei called Sansa an idiot so many times - I'd love to see Sansa return the favor.

[femfatalatron]

Yeah, she's not the smartest, but I think "idiot" is an oversimplification.

She's ignorant about stuff like geography and tactics, but that's not really her fault. Girls' vs. boys' educations would have coverered really different things, and I'd expect Jaime to have been better educated in those things, while Cersei probably wouldn't even have learned the basics. (Tywin seems rather less gender-liberated than say the Mormonts or the Martells.)

What *is* her fault is that she doesn't know what she doesn't know. It's the signature arrogance that everyone's talking about. A really smart leader knows their limitations and can take advice in those areas, but Cersei's not doing that.

I also tend to interpret her character as having a personality disorder. It's why her POV chapters seem like they're happening through a strangely distorting reality filter. It's actually pretty common for such disorders to become much worse after a traumatic trigger, like, say, losing your child. Or your dad. Or your closest friend and lover. It can make a person go from sort-of-functional to a complete disaster very quickly.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

femfatalatron, on 16 March 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

Yeah, she's not the smartest, but I think "idiot" is an oversimplification.

She's ignorant about stuff like geography and tactics, but that's not really her fault. Girls' vs. boys' educations would have coverered really different things, and I'd expect Jaime to have been better educated in those things, while Cersei probably wouldn't even have learned the basics. (Tywin seems rather less gender-liberated than say the Mormonts or the Martells.)

What *is* her fault is that she doesn't know what she doesn't know. It's the signature arrogance that everyone's talking about. A really smart leader knows their limitations and can take advice in those areas, but Cersei's not doing that.

I also tend to interpret her character as having a personality disorder. It's why her POV chapters seem like they're happening through a strangely distorting reality filter. It's actually pretty common for such disorders to become much worse after a traumatic trigger, like, say, losing your child. Or your dad. Or your closest friend and lover. It can make a person go from sort-of-functional to a complete disaster very quickly.

well its her fault if she wants to rule the 7 kingdoms. there's nothing stopping her from picking up a book. its not very clear tyrion's training come from anything but his own initiative, being a dwarf and all.  yeah, i just feel like personality disorder is sort of a cop-out.  basically if you want to be a king, to rule over others, there's probably something wrong with you.  There's was probably something wrong with Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and Bill Clinton

[WenchofTarth]

Joffery dying and Ceresi seeing Tyrion under every bed made her paranoid which made her dumber than she was previously.  That and her having POVs in Feast made her look much worse.

[moonsblood]

The only thing Cersei has is her looks, whilst shes not in Lolly's territory, she certainly is not smart enough to be a real player.  Nor does she have the wits, her mental state has been in a serious descent for some time.

edited for spelling

Edited by spiritguides, 16 March 2012 - 03:14 PM.

[HouseofStark]

no, i dont think cersei is an idiot, but neither do i think she has the skill she believes she has. let me just stress that this is a woman who through natural gifts and station of birth is able to rise to the top of the political power structure of westeros. now some of that was luck and some of that was her own initiative, but she did not roll out of bed and come to that place.

i dont think, as things stand right now, that she has the talent to retain power. however, since this thread is asking whether she's an idiot or not, i feel fairly comfortable saying that isn't the case.

someone previously mentioned sansa becoming a player. i too get the feeling that will happen, furthermore, i'd predict sansa getting the better of cersei because of her teacher in littlefinger. something that cersei does not have (nor am i inclined to believe if she did have, would listen to).

[Lord Damian]

Cercei cannot think past her next imediate move, she would make the worst chess player in the known World. Clearly, Joff is/was a chip off the old mama. She was effective against Ned only because of Littlefinger's betrayal, then Ser Barristan not having used his testacles for so long he could not find them when he could have enforced Robert's decree on succession. Cersei has also lead her house to what I believe to be the brink of destruction.

Edited by Lord Damian, 16 March 2012 - 04:36 PM.

[Faint]

I remain somewhat surprised this subject is continuously rehashed since I never thought there was much too it. In any case, I second the notion that Cersei is the same character she has always been over the course of the series and that her precipitous fall starting in the fourth book can be put down to various justifiable factors, most importantly, the elimination of the five-year gap.

[Lord Martin]

Cersei is impulsive, stubborn and occasionally cruel.

She constantly makes bad guesses about who is behind which plot, whether its the Tyrells or Tyrion or Sansa or Bronn hoarding swordsmen.  She cannot read true friend from foe and is easily flattered.  She favors people based on their appearances like Aurane Waters, Taena Merryweather and Jaime.  While despising those who are ugly, become old, crippled or ugly.  She sees those who would give her counsel that is different from her initial impulse as old, ugly or traitorous.  The way she turns on Pycelle and the Stokeworths.  The way she always hated Tyrion because he was ugly.  She hated Gyles, the High Septon and even Lancel became hideous in her eyes after he stopped giving her what she wanted.  

And once she's decided that Margery is trying to usurp her, or that Tyrion is the cause of all her problems or that Taena and Aurane are trustworthy, she digs into those stubborn suppositions.  Her ill-conceived (being polite!) plot to have Margery convicted of treason as laughable.  And she never listens to good counsel or considers changing her mind.  She digs in and says, they must be in league, why else try to steer me away!  

She is the one who ended up with the smallest council afterall!  (Boy what a sad council that was/is!)

And she's cruel.  She twisted Tyions penis as an infant til he cried... it is heavily implied that at age 10 or 11 she killed Melara Heatherspoon by pushing her down a well, she coaxed Jaime into killing Bran, she mentally tortures Sansa Stark, she gives Senelle and Falyses to Qyburn, also the Blue Bard, letting Q torture him like that... yuck... she is cruel.

That's Cersei in a nutshell to me.  I won't disagree with those who say she had a tough life, she was even abused by Robert... but that doesn't justify her cruelty.  And she was well on her way before she ever met Robert.

[danm_999]

Cersei is a pathetic schemer. The only reason she's survived this long is because the powers that be in the realm have kept her in King's Landing because she is such a destabilising influence for the Lannisters.

There's pretty much an unbroken line of terrible decisions and needless blunders from having Lady executed to trying to frame Margaery for treason.