234 replies to this topic

[Ser Justin Scummy]

I have been thinks about this since the ending of Dwd...Varys killed Kelvan because he was about to undo all that He and littlefinger had done to cause confusion and strife between the ruling houses of westreos..It is my belief that Young Griff is a fake and that His only purpose is to cause more Confusion until Dany Arises and they Varys and littlefinger want to see her on the throne.

But I also see that He could be the real thing and the only reason that they are helping Dany is so that she would marry Aegon/YG and help strenghten his claim to the throne..

What are yall opions on this subjet and also with the Varys conspircy to cause confusion and strife in 7 kingdoms.....

[Johnny The Longshanks]

I don't think Varys really needs more confusion. Excepting Dorne and the Vale every other kingdom/house is depleted (Stark, Lannister,Tully, Baratheon) or about to be depleted (Greyjoy, Tyrell). You bring in another possible King now and you risk losing the whole thing immediatly.

Also, I'm not positive how this ties in but Varys/Iliyrio and/or Doran have been plotting to put VISERYS on the thrown for 15 years not Daenerys. This may or may not prove that Varys and Doran are not exactly planning the same thing. Aegon might be a more recent devlopment, Varys could have known Connington and Lemore were raising Aegon and are now he's looking to hitch his wagon because the main horse he had in the race (Viserys) broke its leg and is now Fire and Glue.

[Ser Justin Scummy]

But didn't varys claim he swaped aegon/yg out at then end of DwD....It just raises a few questions to varys...I believe that he is 100% behind the targaryen house and wee do whatever to put them back on the throne..but which one does he want...

Edited by Alek Snow The Wild Wolf, 16 March 2012 - 08:51 PM.

[Jaehaerys Sand]

Here's the theory I've heard that I like:

Aegon is Illyrio's son (possibly with a blackfyre mother). Illyrio and Varys have been scheming to get him on the iron throne, both out of ambition for his child and (for Varys) for put truly competent ruler who will care about the realm on the throne. This explains many of their actions.

They never intended to have Viserys sit the throne. They just used him as a way to get Drogo to invade, and planned on killing him later and having Aegon take over.

This would also explain why Varys tries to have Daenerys killed. He knew such an act would cause drogo to invade, and he had no loyalty to Dany.

[A Free Shadow]

Alek Snow The Wild Wolf, on 16 March 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

.It is my belief that Young Griff is a fake and that His only purpose is to cause more Confusion until Dany Arises and they Varys and littlefinger want to see her on the throne.

But I also see that He could be the real thing and the only reason that they are helping Dany is so that she would marry Aegon/YG and help strenghten his claim to the throne..

Aegon is (most likely) a fake and Varys has always wanted to put him on the Iron throne. He and Illyrio had planned for ten or more years. Viserys and Daenerys were just to keep the place until he arrives.

[TomBombadil]

When I read the chapter I thought he was the real deal. Tyrion seems to know his stuff but after all the doubt on this forum I think he may be a fake.

[Ser Justin Scummy]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 16 March 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

This would also explain why Varys tries to have Daenerys killed. He knew such an act would cause drogo to invade, and he had no loyalty to Dany.

I don't believe Varys tried to kill Daenerys...He told Mormount about the attempt and I believe he had him stop the poison wine...I could be wrong thought

[lostinwesteros]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 16 March 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Here's the theory I've heard that I like:

Aegon is Illyrio's son (possibly with a blackfyre mother). Illyrio and Varys have been scheming to get him on the iron throne, both out of ambition for his child and (for Varys) for put truly competent ruler who will care about the realm on the throne. This explains many of their actions.

They never intended to have Viserys sit the throne. They just used him as a way to get Drogo to invade, and planned on killing him later and having Aegon take over.

This would also explain why Varys tries to have Daenerys killed. He knew such an act would cause drogo to invade, and he had no loyalty to Dany.

I've never heard this theory before - really never been on the threads about Aegon, but thinking "Aegon/YG" is Illyrio's son is very fascinating.  I see the logic.  Not sure, though, at this point but would like to see your theory further developed (how Jon Connington, et. al. came to be involved, etc.

Coldheart, on 16 March 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

When I read the chapter I thought he was the real deal. Tyrion seems to know his stuff but after all the doubt on this forum I think he may be a fake.

Yes, then there's this.  I think Tyrion is sharp enough to realize what's what.  Supporting this theory is the fact that so much trouble was gone to in order to keep YG 'hidden' and 'safe'.  I'm 'processing' this theory as I write, and, it just came to me that if Aegon were a fake, then JC wouldn't be so determined to keep guiding/protecting him, determined to live long enough to fulfill this mission in spite of the greyscale he'd contracted.

I really like JC, even though we haven't had that much time to really get to know him.  The greyscale reference above, plus the fact that he was honorable and courageous to dive into those infested waters to save Tyrion, tells me that at least JC is 'the real thing' (i.e.,not an ambitious pretender trying to put a fake on the throne.)   I guess it's possible that he's just an honorable, courageous man who is deluded and just believes YG is Aegon, but somehow that just doesn't ring true to me -- JC is too smart/savy for that.

[the rag doll]

When did Varys try to kill Daenarys? I must've missed that.  Also, if Illyrio and Varys wanted to put Aegon on the throne, why keep him hidden and isolated? You'd think that Varys would want his king to have some name recognition by the time he got the throne.  And the fact that Aegon hasn't died would keep people's hopes alive about a new Targaryan king.

[the Scorpion Knight]

the rag doll, on 17 March 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

When did Varys try to kill Daenarys? I must've missed that.  Also, if Illyrio and Varys wanted to put Aegon on the throne, why keep him hidden and isolated?

and put a a giant hit me mark on the boy (robert would have hired a FM to get him) no the hidding makes more than not considering tywin qand robert.

[Dacie]

Wasn't it King Robert's plan to kill Dany? I also believe Varys probably tipped Jorah off to stop it.

As for YG, yes I believe he is fake. I think he is the son of Illyrio and a Blackfyre (there are also threads speculating Varys is not a eunuch but is in fact a Blackfyre also, and this has all been one big mummers trick). I think they kept YG hidden until the realm was in the right state of disarray that it's in now.

I mean if "Aegon" showed up while Robert was still on the Iron Throne and had any notions of reclaiming the throne, he would have been destroyed, no question, while the Seven Kingdoms were still united. Plus you have to add in the fact that he is allegedly the son of Rhaegar, the man King Bob hates more than anything else the world. I doubt he would have allowed him to live, even in exile the way Viserys and Dany did.

As for the common folk, like Ser Jorah said, I don't think they really care if it's a Targ, Stark, Baratheon, Lannister, or Moonboy on the Iron Throne so long as they are left in peace.

[James Arryn]

Where did this son of Illyrio thing take root? I've seen it suggested a lot in here, but is there any actual support, other than wondering why Illyrio seems to prefer YG to Dani?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

James Arryn, on 17 March 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Where did this son of Illyrio thing take root? I've seen it suggested a lot in here, but is there any actual support, other than wondering why Illyrio seems to prefer YG to Dani?

It comes from Illyrio talking to Tyrion about his wife Serra lovingly, Illyrio having children's clothing to offer Tyrion when he is staying with him in Pentos, Illyrio calling him the most noble lad ever (or something like this), and Illyrio being disappointed that he won't be able to see YG before he sends Tyrion off down the river with him.

[Blackhaven]

I think that Varys is loyal to the Targaryens, specifically Aegon.  For now, I believe Aegon is the real deal.  

It was Varys who kept Robert's council informed of Vicerys and Danaerys whereabouts and goings on.  I believe Varys used Vicerys and Danaerys as a distraction for Robert's attention to help keep Aegon's secret.  Along the same lines of using another baby as a decoy during the sack of King's Landing, Varys used the siblings as a target while the truest Targaryen heir was kept secret and safe.

Aegon may grow into Targaryen greatness like Rhaegar and Danaerys or he might fall to the depths of Vicerys and the Mad King, but I believe (for now) that he is genuine Targaryen and has the strongest birthright to the Iron Throne.

Edited by Blackhaven, 17 March 2012 - 11:14 AM.

[Dacie]

This is the reason I believe he's fake (it's just my humble opinion and you know they say about opinions):

We have invested countless hours reading and learning about the other main characters of the series. Ups and downs, laughter and tears, we were with them for thousands of words. For someone to be introduced in the 5th book and end up "winning it all" seems a little...cheap to me.

Now that being said, I do not think JC knows he is "fake". I think Aegon himself might not know it either. And I do think he will sit the Iron Throne at some point. Whether or not he keeps it...who knows

[ServantOnIce]

I go backward's and forwards on this . .  the same way Martin warned us about the RW in "Storm of Swords" by starting with the house of the undying vision in Qaarth (a book early in Clash of Kings), I think some way this guy may be fake .. "Mummer's Dragon"   keeps ringing in my head . .

Edited by ServantOnIce, 17 March 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[James Arryn]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 17 March 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

It comes from Illyrio talking to Tyrion about his wife Serra lovingly, Illyrio having children's clothing to offer Tyrion when he is staying with him in Pentos, Illyrio calling him the most noble lad ever (or something like this), and Illyrio being disappointed that he won't be able to see YG before he sends Tyrion off down the river with him.

Ok, thanks.

Not terribly convincing imo, but no worse than many others I've seen bandied about.

I also think I want YG to be real, in part be real, in part because this war has been remarkably lacking in martial action since the RW (outside of the bane of medieval warfare; sieges) and YG seems to be a mover and shaker, in part because I like the romantic arc of the story line, and in part because Dani has been losing me.

But the second of those leads me to conclude it's doomed to fail, legit or not. GRRM doesn't like romantic arcs except when they end badly.

Edited by James Arryn, 17 March 2012 - 11:42 AM.

[TheCheesecakeMassacre]

Slightly off-topic but who rules the Stormlands now? Who will be in charge of repelling Connington?

[Ser Lepus]

TheCheesecakeMassacre, on 17 March 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

Slightly off-topic but who rules the Stormlands now? Who will be in charge of repelling Connington?

Nobody is in charge of the whole Stormlands now. Technichally, both Stannis and Tommen have a claim over them, but in fact, each lord is currently near autonomously ruling his lands, answering only to the Iron Throne, and the Crown has too much matters at hand now to pay attention to the Stormlands...
Tommen (or his Hand/regent)  could send a castellan to Storm´s End to rule in his place, but the castle was still occupied by a Stannis´ loyalist, withstanding a Lannister/Tyrell siege.

[Buried Treasure]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 17 March 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

It comes from Illyrio talking to Tyrion about his wife Serra lovingly, Illyrio having children's clothing to offer Tyrion when he is staying with him in Pentos, Illyrio calling him the most noble lad ever (or something like this), and Illyrio being disappointed that he won't be able to see YG before he sends Tyrion off down the river with him.

James Arryn, on 17 March 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Ok, thanks.
Not terribly convincing imo, but no worse than many others I've seen bandied about.

I think it's enough to suggest that Illyrio and Serra fostered Aegon for a few years, but not that Illyrio is his father.

For starters it relies on Illyrio happening to have a child of roughly the right age. Also, when Tyrion asks if Illyrio wants to be rewarded with a position on the small council he responds by saying he has a fine manse and wealth in Pentos which he would not want to give up for a draughty Westerosi hall. Is it not natural for a man to want his son to openly be his own heir? He could give his child wealth and comfort with none of the dangers of being a pretender for a throne. When the real Aegon died Illyrio's hypothetical son would have also been around a year old & already loved, would Illyrio really have decided then to use him in this plot that will require sending him away and never letting him know his true parentage?

I think it makes more sense if Illyrio knew the boy was eventually going to leave when he first came to live in the manse as a young child. That still allows him to be real or fake, although i favour fake. It might just be possible (although still fairly unlikely) that Serra is his real (non-Blackfyre) mother; if Illyrio was responsible for procuring the fake he would have trouble knowing what looks a 3 or 4 year old would grow into. He may have purchased a mother-and-son pair to ensure he got the Targaryen look in the boy.