234 replies to this topic

[TheWizard]

Varys wouldnt of gave the order to kill dany. He could of just told robert he had instead of actually doing it.


i dont think varys wants a Targ on the throne,but maybe a balckfyre

[Dragonfish]

Risha, on 23 July 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

@Dragonfish: I think that everyone is saying that you failed to knock down arguments decisively. "Mummer's dragon" can have both meanings, and there is enough evidence on both sides to give credence to either reading. We simply don't have the big smoking gun pointing to either as absolutely correct.

Right, I agree it could be interpreted both ways. In fact, I think both interpretations are right at the same time, in that the term "mummer's dragon" has the double meaning of a fake dragon being controlled by a mummer. I have argued this very thing since before ADWD came out. The argument that I was trying to knock down was the notion that "mummer's dragon" can only be possessive. By your own admission, this argument has no legs, so I think I knocked it down pretty decisively.

Furthermore, Valarr Targaryen said that I ignored arguments that "demolished" my own arguments. What exactly were these arguments that were strong enough to demolish mine? I have asked this question several times and have yet to receive a satisfactory answer. It can't be the "mummer's dragon=Varys' dragon" argument, because, again by your own admission, both interpretations are possible, so mine holds up just as much as the other. So please, someone tell me, what were these arguments that "demolished" my own? I'll wait, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Aelos]

Dragonfish, on 23 July 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

Valarr Targaryen said that I ignored arguments that "demolished" my own arguments.

I did exagerate, but I found it strange that you had the guts to call someone arrogant and patronizing while you only give half answers. Why only react to the part where he says it is possessive? While you ignored the part where he explained it.. I found that more arrogant and patronizing,

My own opinion about this theory is that you all overthink too much.
twins on lyanna, really? Is Ned still alive too? Did they actually send a lookalike ROb to the Red Wedding? No, there are little bits of text that make you doubt about Aegon, but that's it. I personally didn't think he was a dragon at all, but the outburst made me think of Viserys.

[Buried Treasure]

Valarr Targaryen, on 24 July 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

No, there are little bits of text that make you doubt about Aegon, but that's it. I personally didn't think he was a dragon at all, but the outburst made me think of Viserys.

But did the outburst remind you of Viserys because you were predisposed to compare Aegon's behaviour to Targaryen behaviour? Petty outbursts and ordering people around in a sulk is not a trait exclusive to one family. If the claim was that Aegon was a Lannister would not the outburst remind you of Joffrey? Remember when he cut up his nameday gift or ordered Tyrion to be his cupbearer.

Howlin, on 23 July 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

I stand by a theory I made before ADWD was released. Lyana Stark had twin sons. To protect them they were split up. Eddard took the dark haired twin to Winterfel. Ashara Dayne took the silver haired twin into hiding.
...
So Aegon is both fake and real. Rhaegar's real son and heir, but not the original Aegon.

The problem with this idea is that is negates half the clues that strengthen the original theory that Lyanna had a child. R+L=J is strengthened by the motif of the winter rose - at Harrenhal, on Lyanna's deathbed, in Dany's vision of a wall of ice - Aegon does share in that symbolism. Nor can Eddard's promise to Lyanna have meant anything if he failed to keep it to the extent he has no clue where one of her children is, and how safe.

[Dragonfish]

Valarr Targaryen, on 24 July 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

I did exagerate, but I found it strange that you had the guts to call someone arrogant and patronizing while you only give half answers. Why only react to the part where he says it is possessive? While you ignored the part where he explained it.. I found that more arrogant and patronizing,

I didn't need to address the part where he explained it. I had no disagreement with the idea that the term "mummer's dragon" could refer to Varys. I was disagreeing with the notion that the term could only be possessive, as I have already explained several times now. I only addressed the portion of the argument that I disagreed with. How exactly does that make me "arrogant and patronizing"?

[Howlin' Howland]

Buried Treasure, on 24 July 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

The problem with this idea is that is negates half the clues that strengthen the original theory that Lyanna had a child. R+L=J is strengthened by the motif of the winter rose - at Harrenhal, on Lyanna's deathbed, in Dany's vision of a wall of ice - Aegon does share in that symbolism. Nor can Eddard's promise to Lyanna have meant anything if he failed to keep it to the extent he has no clue where one of her children is, and how safe.

What makes you think that Eddard wouldn't know where the child was and whether he was safe. The only witness to Ashara's "suicide" was Eddard. And Eddard personally taking Dawn back to the Dayne's certainly looks like a pretext to me. There's no way that Eddard could have hidden a silver haired purple eyed child from Robert. That would have been too obvious even for him. Pluss splitting the children up would ensure that if one child was caught the other would still be safe. Sending the child off with Ashara works with all of this and would be consistent with Eddard keeping his promise. Also remember when Eddard talked about the sacrifices that it sometimes takes to keep a promise? Sending your true love overseas with no expectation of ever seeing her again is a heck of a sacrifice.

[Sapphire]

Where does it say Ned witnessed Ashara's suicide? And under your theory, why have Rhaegar and Lyanna's silver haired twin assume Aegon's identity?

[Howlin' Howland]

Sapphire, on 24 July 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Where does it say Ned witnessed Ashara's suicide? And under your theory, why have Rhaegar and Lyanna's silver haired twin assume Aegon's identity?

The thread with my full theory is Ned Starks real bastard and Jon Snow's twin.  I also predicted that Ashara Dayne was pregnant before ADWD.

I don't have the books with me, I'm traveling, so I can't look up the chapter where Ashara's suicide is described.  If anyone has the chapter please post it, I'm doing this from memory so I might have some of the details wrong.

The reason for the Aegon hoax would be because the Daynes went to their close ally Prince Doran for help with hiding the child.  Prince Doran was already working with Varys.  People in Westeros knew that there was a Prince Aegon so they would be more willing to believe that a Targ showing up named Aegon was really Rhaegar's son than some unlikely story about Lyana having his son.

Edited by Howlin' Howland, 24 July 2012 - 11:48 PM.

[Volantis]

James Arryn, on 17 March 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Ok, thanks.

Not terribly convincing imo, but no worse than many others I've seen bandied about.

I also think I want YG to be real, in part be real, in part because this war has been remarkably lacking in martial action since the RW (outside of the bane of medieval warfare; sieges) and YG seems to be a mover and shaker, in part because I like the romantic arc of the story line, and in part because Dani has been losing me.

But the second of those leads me to conclude it's doomed to fail, legit or not. GRRM doesn't like romantic arcs except when they end badly.

True. He entered too late in the game.

[aedalia]

Princess Rhaenys had brown hair. I believe this means the original Aegon VI would have had brown hair too under the theory that Martell DNA beats Targ DNA.

Therefore since, Tully DNA beats Stark DNA 4 of 5 times, I postulate that Targ DNA beats Stark DNA (Stark DNA being sadly weak). Therefore, Young Griff, aka Aegon VI is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son. This was either accomplished through some elaboarte switcheroos that I have outlined elsewhere, or Varys realizing that their son looked more Targy and would be a better pawn in the long run.

[Dragonfish]

aedalia, on 14 August 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

Princess Rhaenys had brown hair. I believe this means the original Aegon VI would have had brown hair too under the theory that Martell DNA beats Targ DNA.

No, George told us years ago that Aegon had the Targ look.

Quote

Therefore since, Tully DNA beats Stark DNA 4 of 5 times, I postulate that Targ DNA beats Stark DNA (Stark DNA being sadly weak).

But according to your own premise, Targ DNA is weak as well. So how does your conclusion follow from your premise?

Quote

Therefore, Young Griff, aka Aegon VI is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son.

Eh, once again, your conclusion does not follow from the premise. You might say that Aegon could be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, or that the possibility isn't precluded by genetics, but nothing you've said here necessarily leads to that conclusion.

[aedalia]

Dragonfish, on 14 August 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

No, George told us years ago that Aegon had the Targ look.

The Aegon we have met has the Targ look, yes. My theory is he is not Elia and Rheagar's Aegon, who I believe had dark hair. Our Aegon aka Young Griff, does have the Targ look because he is Lyanna and Rhaegar's boy. Basically I'm saying there was the baby who was born Aegon VI and the one we know who was told he was Aegon VI.

Quote

But according to your own premise, Targ DNA is weak as well. So how does your conclusion follow from your premise?

I don't think I'm saying Targ DNA has to be weak. I see it more like a continuum. Martell and Baratheon DNA being the at the top of the genetic pyramid, Tully and Targ somewhere in the middle and Stark at the bottom. So, Targ + Martell = Martell, Targ + Stark = Targ.

Quote

Eh, once again, your conclusion does not follow from the premise. You might say that Aegon could be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, or that the possibility isn't precluded by genetics, but nothing you've said here necessarily leads to that conclusion.

My theory that Aegon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son has more to do with possible opportunities.

Built into this theory is my theory that Ned really is Jon Snow's father and the mother is Ashara Dayne. Ashara killed herself after she and Elia switched sons for Aegon's protection, since she was overcome with greif that she let her baby die, not knowing that Ned had done another switch to protect Lyanna's son, allowing him to be smuggled away to become Young Griff.

It all really hinges on the motive behind Ashara's suicide and the "coincidence" that 16 years later, Jon would "steal" Gilly's baby, leaving her miserable and near suicidal herself. And that a Targ-looking Aegon would be a much better sell for Varys than a Martell-looking boy. So no proof-proof, just motives and opportunity.

Edited by aedalia, 14 August 2012 - 07:40 PM.

[Dragonfish]

aedalia, on 14 August 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

The Aegon we have met has the Targ look, yes. My theory is he is not Elia and Rheagar's Aegon, who I believe had dark hair.

No, as I said, George told us years ago that Aegon had the Targ look, before even ADWD came out.

Quote

Our Aegon aka Young Griff, does have the Targ look because he is Lyanna and Rhaegar's boy. Basically I'm saying there was the baby who was born Aegon VI and the one we know who was told he was Aegon VI.

Okay, but what is your basis for saying that Targ genes are stronger than Stark genes? You haven't connected your conclusion to your premise, which is all I was saying.

[nepaliman_7]

I like the theory of Darkstar being Ned and Ashara's kid while Jon and Aegon are twins.

[aedalia]

Dragonfish, on 14 August 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

No, as I said, George told us years ago that Aegon had the Targ look, before even ADWD came out.



Okay, but what is your basis for saying that Targ genes are stronger than Stark genes? You haven't connected your conclusion to your premise, which is all I was saying.

If George said Aegon looked Targ then my conclusion doesn't work. Unless he forgets he said that, of course. LOL

Evidence would suggest that Targ and Stark DNA are at least equal in the Westerosi genetic losers race, though, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

[Jon Pauletto]

In my opinion, Aegon is the real one, Illyrio is supporting the cause because he can win a lot of benefits with that

I don't think he's Illyrio's son, Varys is a Targ loyalist (so am I )

I think they want marry Aegon and Dany, so they could rule together

Aegon is well protected because he's the first in the succession line, Dany comes after, even Viserys was more important (he was the second in line), that's why Dany was not important at the beggining, she was just part of a trade to get the Iron Throne, and now, of course she's important

Aegon is a Targaryen, not a blackfyre, that's what I believe

Edited by Jon Pauletto, 14 August 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[ealbiest]

Reading Dunk and Egg stories, somewhere there it IS said that Targaryens who have married dark/ brown-haired persons have brown-haired offspring. Rhaegar's and Elia's children would have been brown-haired both.

Young Griff having the Targaryen look means he is not Rhaegar's son by any brown-haired woman.

For a pretender though, Targaryen looks would be a neat "proof". I like the theory of Varys and Illyrio working to get a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne, and young Griff being a genuine Blackfyre Targaryen. (Btw, I don't find Varys adivisng Aerys not to open the city for Tywin proof of anything as such - as we saw with Cercei and Robert, if you forbid or tell a sovereign NOT to do something, with the right tone and implying it will have the opposite effect. Varys was manipulating Aerys and looking after his own interests.) They were not trying to have Viserys on throne, and believed Daenerys dead or done with. Had they been working for the Targaryens, that surely should have been their goal.

[Jon AS]

I really wish people would read both the stories and the older threads a bit more carefully before rehashing the same things over and over.

1. Baelor Breakspear had dark hair, but his brother Maekar, for example, did not.
2. We know Aegon had the "Targaryen look" because the author said so.

[Ludd]

Aegon is real and Septa Lemore is Elia, who pretending to be Ashara Dayne leaped into the sea.

Rhaegar is probably alive
Ashara Dayne is the Merling Queen

[Daenerys is my queen]

Alysanne., on 17 March 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

This is the reason I believe he's fake (it's just my humble opinion and you know they say about opinions):

We have invested countless hours reading and learning about the other main characters of the series. Ups and downs, laughter and tears, we were with them for thousands of words. For someone to be introduced in the 5th book and end up "winning it all" seems a little...cheap to me.

Now that being said, I do not think JC knows he is "fake". I think Aegon himself might not know it either. And I do think he will sit the Iron Throne at some point. Whether or not he keeps it...who knows

I agree. I mean, obviously I don't want Aegon on the throne but other than that I agree. It just seems like a weird way of ending things. Like you said, we've spent so much time reading about the other characters and then another one comes out of nowhere and is supposedly Aegon Targaryen. I don't know if he's fake or not. I honestly don't care. I already have a character to support for the throne. She may not get it but I will support her till the end. But anyway, back on topic, I think that Aegon getting the throne would be a very unsatisfying ending. We've been reading about all the other choices for 5 books and then "Aegon" comes out of nowhere. It would be much better if someone who's been around longer *cough cough Dany cough cough* gets the throne.