234 replies to this topic

[WakeTheDragon]

Apple Martini, on 04 December 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

And marrying a real Targ to a fake one gives the fake one a sheen of legitimacy. Dany's a pawn to them, that's it.

Way too many risks that I've already gone through to pull that off. It's very far fetched that they could find a random valaryan baby that convincing. Aegon is genuine.

[SFDanny]

Apple Martini, on 04 December 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

It refers to Lemore as being of middle age. Ashara would still only be in her early-to-mid 30s, depending on how old she was when the war broke out. I think of middle age as mid-40s and older (and Tyrion thinks of her as "past forty").

Ned is thirty-five at the start of the series and Ashara is likely around his age or a little older. No firm age that I know of, but I certainly wouldn't think she would be in her early thirties. Mid to late is much more likely. As to what constitutes middle age, well, that varies considerably according to the times. We may agree that mid-40s is middle age today, but I think Tyrion certainly thinks Ned is middle aged and he is only three years older than Jaime. All of this is too vague to rule out the Lemore/Ashara connection, at least to my way of thinking.

[Apple Martini]

WakeTheDragon, on 04 December 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Way too many risks that I've already gone through to pull that off. It's very far fetched that they could find a random valaryan baby that convincing. Aegon is genuine.

It's not a "random Valyrian baby." It's a Blackfyre, as we keep trying to tell you. Aegon is fake.

[SFDanny]

WakeTheDragon, on 04 December 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

I agree he ultimately wants to use her.........to marry Aegon to her and restore the dynasty.

If that was really true, then he wouldn't have sent the kill order, or at least did a lot more than rely on one man to receive the message in time to stop it. He doesn't care if Daenerys lives or dies. Indeed as Illyrio tells us they think she will die out in the Dothraki Sea (ADwD 73) If you are a Targaryen loyalist you don't sell your princess to a Dothraki horselord and put her survival in his hands. You don't allow an impulsive Viserys with his dangerous delusions to ride out with her with only a spy to protect them both.

[danm_999]

Apple Martini, on 04 December 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

It's not a "random Valyrian baby." It's a Blackfyre, as we keep trying to tell you. Aegon is fake.

Moreover it's a Blackfyre who is likely the son to one of the two conspirators.

Putting your own flesh and blood on the Iron Throne because of a claim he has through a wife you loved immensely does not seem that implausible. Plus, you get to be Master of Coin!

[Apple Martini]

danm_999, on 04 December 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Moreover it's a Blackfyre who is likely the son to one of the two conspirators.

Putting your own flesh and blood on the Iron Throne because of a claim he has through a wife you loved immensely does not seem that implausible. Plus, you get to be Master of Coin!

Exactly. It's not like Illyrio randomly wanting to help the Targaryen siblings makes any more sense, surely?

[the Scorpion Knight]

Apple Martini, on 04 December 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

Exactly. It's not like Illyrio randomly wanting to help the Targaryen siblings makes any more sense, surely?

maybe the reason is in illyrio's faith?

[Pyrrhus of Epirus]

Eleanor Rigby, on 17 March 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

This is the reason I believe he's fake (it's just my humble opinion and you know they say about opinions):

We have invested countless hours reading and learning about the other main characters of the series. Ups and downs, laughter and tears, we were with them for thousands of words. For someone to be introduced in the 5th book and end up "winning it all" seems a little...cheap to me.

Now that being said, I do not think JC knows he is "fake". I think Aegon himself might not know it either. And I do think he will sit the Iron Throne at some point. Whether or not he keeps it...who knows

Well what do you suggest, they add Aegon in the first book and we have another character that does absolutely nothing in the first 5 books? We already have Dany, would you rather another chapter that could be used for characters that matter in the now, like Ned, or Davos, should have been replaced by Aegon which would have spoiled any hope of a surprise since we'd know exactly who he is right off the bat. Unless GRRM tried to do one of those "He thinks he's someone normal, finds out he's Aegon" But come on, that's been done a thousand times and is already threatened in the form of Jon Snow. I think it works out better this way, introduce the character when he matters, instead of having another deadbeat character for 5 books. That's why I think Aegon could very easily be real, or fake, but I'm not confident on either.

[Apple Martini]

the Scorpion Knight, on 04 December 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

maybe the reason is in illyrio's faith?

Is there any suggestion of that, though?

[the Scorpion Knight]

Apple Martini, on 04 December 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

Is there any suggestion of that, though?

illyrio is a follower of the lord of light

[SFDanny]

the Scorpion Knight, on 04 December 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

illyrio is a follower of the lord of light

Really? I didn't catch that. Not that I doubt you, but could you share a reference?

[Buried Treasure]

WakeTheDragon, on 04 December 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Way too many risks that I've already gone through to pull that off. It's very far fetched that they could find a random valaryan baby that convincing. Aegon is genuine.

If Aegon really died its was only option to have an Aegon. There was one night to save the original boy, there were years to find a convincing fake.And where is the risk? If the fake at six years doesn't look enough like a son of Rhaegar might, don't give the boy to Jon, or if Jon rejects him, he's a powerless exile.

Edited by Buried Treasure, 05 December 2012 - 06:57 AM.

[Lummel]

WakeTheDragon, on 04 December 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Way too many risks that I've already gone through to pull that off. It's very far fetched that they could find a random valaryan baby that convincing. Aegon is genuine.

Even Aurane Waters was said to lok like Rhaegar.  The population of Lys all share the Valyrian look.  It is only Westeros where people with silver blond(e) hair etc etc are rare.

SFDanny, on 05 December 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Really? I didn't catch that. Not that I doubt you, but could you share a reference?

Daenerys I AGOT "May the Lord of Light shower you with blessings on this most fortunate day, Princess Daenerys".  There don't seem to be enough references to say that it is a verbal tic.  It could be a conventional piety, or it could be significant.

[Rose Rivers]

I for one want Aegon to be real (probably because Dany isn't any closer to Westeros than she was at the beginning of AGoT) but i have some trouble believing it. But since, as i think this thread has established, there are enough arguments on either side to go back and forth endlessly until TWoW, lets say that hypothetically, Aegon isn't the son of Rhaegar and Elia. In that case, who is he?

I agree to an extent that it's strange to bring him in this late in the series and not have him be a POV character. Then again, as others have mentioned, Robb and Stannis aren't POV either, and that doesn't make them any less significant. I don't think that Aegon being introduced in ADWD is an argument against him being a real Targaryen, as GRRM could well have waited to introduce him so that he could throw him in as a game-changer... or simply because there was no opportunity to introduce him beforehand. Then there's the "mummer's dragon," but that seems to have been argued to death on both sides. So, back to my point: who are his parents, if not Rhaegar and Elia?

My personal theory, if it isn't Rhaegar and Elia, is that it's Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne. IMO that makes more sense given today's rules of genetics, but they might be different in the ASOIAF universe. As we know, Ashara killed herself shortly after Ned returned from the ToJ with Jon Snow. At this point Rhaegar was dead, Lyanna was dead, and Ned was toting around what could have been the couple's baby. Considering the fact that Ashara was a lady-in-waiting for Elia, meaning she would have been around Rhaegar a lot. She was also present at Harrenhall, where Rhaegar gave the crown to Lyanna. If it was Rhaegar rather than Ned that Ashara was in love with, that would have undoubtedly made her upset and suspicious. Combined with the fact that Ned returned from the ToJ with a baby, she could have put two and to together and worked out that Rhaegar fathered Jon with Lyanna. Man she's in love with + baby from another other woman (not Elia) = unhappy Ashara. Possibly a jumping-off-the-Palestone-Sword Ashara. Furthermore, we know that Ashara wasn't with Elia at KL during the last year of Rhaegar's reign. Why? Who knows. Maybe she was pregnant and couldn't let Elia see. But i know that's getting ahead of myself.

Then there's the theory that Septa Lemore is Ashara. If (Real)Aegon had died in the Sack of KL and (Fake)Aegon/Young Griff was Ashara's son by Rhaegar, it would make sense that:
1. the child Septa Lemore gave birth to was Faegon
2. that's where Ashara Dayne went when her body was never found, and
3. that's why Lemore/Ashara is in on the 'putting Aegon on the throne' plan, as well as how she knows JonCon and how he knew Lemore/Ashara could be trusted to help them.

So, if (and i'm not saying he is, i'm just saying it's a possibility) (Fake)Aegon is the son of Rhaegar and Ashara, his Valyrian features also make more sense than if he was the son of Rhaegar and Elia. The silvery hair is a bit of a mystery, but as stated before on this thread, Targ babies apparently tended to keep the Targ hair colouring. The eyes, however, might well have been brown if he was Elia's son. But Ashara Dayne has violet eyes as well, and the Daynes have Valyrian ancestry. Unlike the other Dornish, to quote the wiki the Daynes have "pale skin with hair ranging from dark brown to pale blond."

That's just my two cents, if it turns out that Aegon is fake. I don't think we've got enough conclusive evidence either way, but if he's not, i think being half-Dayne is a strong possibility.

[AdrianAegon]

Aegon is real, and he will become king, with Sansa as his queen, beacause she will be prepared to be one by then by LF.

Daenerys will leave Westeros with Drogon, after the battle of Ice and Fire, and leave one dragon to Aegon, and one to Jon. She will leave for the Dothraki Sea, because she will realise she is a true khaleese, and that there she found true happiness! - it's that kind of melancholic end GRRM wants... like LotR, with Frodo leaving!

about the third head of the dragon, Jon Snow, well I have doubts... I think the end in ADwD is kind of a refresh, absolving him of his vows. I think he will become king of the wildlings with Val as his queen! (rip Ygritte ). Rickon will become Lord of Winterfell, and Bran will become some sort of what Bloodraven is, traped, nontheles.

Arya I think will not make it, or at least we will get that feeling, not truly presenting us what happened to her! She willl eventually make her killing spur, and then, having fulfilled her mission, she will die, or never heard from her again.

Aegon is Rhaegar son, I don't doubt that. Varys knew of the incoming sack, and probably really talked to Elia about saving the baby. As a mother,  I think Elia agreed imediatly.
    Or the real Aegon is really dead, and this Aegon still is a son of Rheagar, a bastard, but still a son. the mother in this case... well, there can be many.. but due to laws in 7 kingdoms, it's much easier to say he is the child from the royal marriage.
    But this will mean that Rhaegar cheated on his wife more than once (Lyanna), wich is hard to believe, considering the accounts of so many characters... oh is so troublesome...