234 replies to this topic

[CrypticWeirwood]

Why does Varys shave his head?  Obviously because he doesn’t want anyone to see his hair. Now why might that be?  I can think of plenty of possible reasons:

• He wants to be able to wear wigs while in disguise, both because it’s easier than if he had long hair, but also helping no one guess it’s really the guy they never see with any hair.
  
• His hair color is a giveaway of something. The only thing that makes sense is strongly Valyrian hair-color, so platinum blonde, perhaps with some gold. That’s why Egg shaved his.
  
• He would reveal that he has male-pattern baldness, something eunuchs can never get, and thus blowing his cover as a eunuch.

Those reasons certainly aren’t mutually exclusive: more than one may be operative.

Option 2 would make him a good candidate for a hidden dragon, whether red or black. And he certainly is a mummer. Perhaps he’s even the mummers’ dragon.

[Ivy Snow]

I am not sure if my memory serves me well, but I do remember a red priest saying there are dragons, old and new, real and fake. Something to that extent. I hope someone can shed a light on this. Sorry, my memory is pretty bad at times lol.

Edit: So if that red priest is true, then there is a FAKE dragon. My two cents, it's Aegon.

Edited by Ivy Snow, 04 April 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[red fork]

Not sure if I'm repeating stuff from other threads, but I was under the impression Varys is definitely a Blackfyre... the clue is in the name.

Dracarys = dragon fire. Let's assume the "drac" prefix means "dragon" (not unreasonable), then "arys" means "fire" (in Valyrian).

Valar Morghulis = All men must die. Let's assume "Morghulis" means "must die" (again, not unreasonable), so "Valar" means "All men".

Now, "Valyria" perhaps means "people of Lyria", so we can surmise "Va" means "man" or "men"

So, "Varys" means "Man of the black". Either he's Night's Watch (not!), it's an in-joke about his shadowy spider spy-master status (could be!) or it's a massive clue that he's an undercover Blackfyre supporter!

Hmmmm, crackpot?

[CrypticWeirwood]

red fork, on 04 April 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

Not sure if I'm repeating stuff from other threads, but I was under the impression Varys is definitely a Blackfyre... the clue is in the name.

Dracarys = dragon fire. Let's assume the "drac" prefix means "dragon" (not unreasonable), then "arys" means "fire" (in Valyrian).

Valar Morghulis = All men must die. Let's assume "Morghulis" means "must die" (again, not unreasonable), so "Valar" means "All men".

Now, "Valyria" perhaps means "people of Lyria", so we can surmise "Va" means "man" or "men"

So, "Varys" means "Man of the black". Either he's Night's Watch (not!), it's an in-joke about his shadowy spider spy-master status (could be!) or it's a massive clue that he's an undercover Blackfyre supporter!

Hmmmm, crackpot?

Easier simply to say that “Varys ≡ Vice-Aerys”.

[The Imp With A Pimp Limp]

Seems to me that Ilyrio is just doing what he is doing to become richer, he gained a bunch of slaves and horses from Dany's wedding. Imagine if both the King and the Queen of Westeros owed their kingdom to him, surely he would gain a lot from that. Imagine all the trade that he could do with Westeros

[Jem]

Ivy Snow, on 04 April 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

I am not sure if my memory serves me well, but I do remember a red priest saying there are dragons, old and new, real and fake. Something to that extent. I hope someone can shed a light on this. Sorry, my memory is pretty bad at times lol.

Edit: So if that red priest is true, then there is a FAKE dragon. My two cents, it's Aegon.

It is: Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark.

I think that bright means red, as in Targaryen and dark means black as in Blackfyre.

I also definitely think that false = Aegon.

Other than that, I don't really know how to interpret this list of dragons. Is he referring to six separate 'dragons': an old one, a young one, a true one, a false one, a bright one, a dark one. Or is combining characteristics? Because  Aegon could be a young, false, dark one.

[Dragonfish]

red fork, on 04 April 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

Not sure if I'm repeating stuff from other threads, but I was under the impression Varys is definitely a Blackfyre... the clue is in the name.

Dracarys = dragon fire. Let's assume the "drac" prefix means "dragon" (not unreasonable), then "arys" means "fire" (in Valyrian).

Valar Morghulis = All men must die. Let's assume "Morghulis" means "must die" (again, not unreasonable), so "Valar" means "All men".

Now, "Valyria" perhaps means "people of Lyria", so we can surmise "Va" means "man" or "men"

So, "Varys" means "Man of the black". Either he's Night's Watch (not!), it's an in-joke about his shadowy spider spy-master status (could be!) or it's a massive clue that he's an undercover Blackfyre supporter!

Hmmmm, crackpot?

Where'd you get the word "black" in the bolded part?

Also, I think it's more likely that the stem for "men" is "Val-", not "Va-" (or alternatively, "Valar" simply means "men", and the word "all" is added to the translation to make it more natural sounding). And given that the suffix "-ria" means "empire" in our own language, I think it's more likely that "Valyria" means "empire of the Valyr", with "Valyr" being a variation of "Valar".

In any case, I doubt Varys' name is a clue for anything. The only way you were able to arrive at your interpretation was by twisting the evidence a little bit toward your conclusion (by deciding that "va-" was the stem for "men" rather than "val-", and by adding the word "black" in, for whatever reason). I also think it'd be reckless for him to choose/keep a name that was a clue to his past, since there are surely those in King's Landing who would be able to translate his name. So at the end of the day, I think it's more likely that "Varys" is just a typical Essosi name.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

FWIW, Daemon Blackfyre is pretty darn Targaryen.  His father was Aegon IV, and his mother was Daena Targaryen, Aegon's first cousin and herself a daughter of Aegon III and "an unknown Velaryon."  (That's Aurane Water's family.) The first generation of Blackfyre children had all the Targaryen traits – blond hair, purple eyes, prophetic dreams and occasional madness.  So even if someone from Daemon Blackfyre's line takes the throne, the Targs are back.

In favor of Aegon being real:  Varys may be good at several things, but his greatest skill, it seems, is sneaking people and things in and out of the Red Keep.  Considering that he had just walked Tyrion out of the black cells, I found Tyrion's skepticism about the baby switch a little surprising.  And we know something Tyrion doesn't, and that is that Varys has no scruples about using children in his schemes (his "little birds").  He probably thought the women were safe, and it really would have been smart to keep Elia and Rhaenys as hostages, and when Rhaenys was old enough, to marry her to Robert's son.  That marriage would have had neutralized Viserys and Danaerys as threats, kept Dorne happy, and given the Baratheon (heh, Lannister) dynasty some legitimacy.

In favor of Aegon being false:  There's Dany's vision in the House of the Undead, that tells Dany that she's the "slayer of lies" and shows the "mummer's dragon."  If that's not a blinking neon arrow pointing to Aegon as a fake, I don't know what is, and I'm sorry for it, because we've been introduced to a character we pretty much know is doomed, so basically his entire story arc is a waste of time – unless lots of Lannisters, Tyrells, etc., etc., die with him.  

Varys is clearly smart enough to have contingency plans --  plan A is his Aegon, who might indeed be a Blackfyre, plans B and C were Viserys and Dany.  Then Dany changed the game by hatching dragons and proving, without a doubt, that she's the Targaryen nuclear power.  Dany, however, got seriously sidetracked, and I think it made perfect sense for Connington et al. to leave her dithering in Meereen  and invade Westeros while the kingdom was still in chaos.  The fact that Aegon is in Westeros might be motivation for Dany to get in gear and out of Meereen, too.

[DornishKnight]

Dragonfish, on 04 April 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Two issues with this:

1) Ther term "mummer's" as been used in the past to imply fraudulence or insincerity. Specifically, in ASOS Dany refers to another character's fake tears as being "mummer's tears." This character (I think it was Xaro) is not a mummer, so clearly she is not saying that his tears belong to a mummer, but rather that he sadness is insincere. That is partly why the idea that "mummer's dragon" is a purely possessive term has always seemed off the mark to me.

2) The vision of the mummer's dragon in the HotU is associated with the line "slayer of lies", so clearly there must be something fraudulent about him. It seems like people conveniently forget this almost every time the mummer's dragon issue comes up.

1) But his tears are still REAL tears. The sadness is insincere, NOT the tears. Mummer's dragon would still be a real dragon (arguably a Blackfyre would still qualify).
2) Agreed
Aegon being a Blackfyre seems to be the one that best satisfies the prophecies.
It isn't impossible for Aegon to be really Rhaegar's son, if something else is fraudulent.

Then again, there is the possibility that the prophecies are all crap and motivation to have Dany screw things over when she finally arrives (this IS GRRM we are talking about).

[Dragonfish]

DornishKnight, on 04 April 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

1) But his tears are still REAL tears. The sadness is insincere, NOT the tears. Mummer's dragon would still be a real dragon (arguably a Blackfyre would still qualify).

They're still fake tears, in the sense that they're artificially summoned and are intended to convey a false message. This means that the term "mummer's" doesn't just indicate possession, but fraudulence as well.

[Ashen Shugar]

red fork, on 04 April 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

Not sure if I'm repeating stuff from other threads, but I was under the impression Varys is definitely a Blackfyre... the clue is in the name.

Dracarys = dragon fire. Let's assume the "drac" prefix means "dragon" (not unreasonable), then "arys" means "fire" (in Valyrian).

Valar Morghulis = All men must die. Let's assume "Morghulis" means "must die" (again, not unreasonable), so "Valar" means "All men".

Now, "Valyria" perhaps means "people of Lyria", so we can surmise "Va" means "man" or "men"

So, "Varys" means "Man of the black". Either he's Night's Watch (not!), it's an in-joke about his shadowy spider spy-master status (could be!) or it's a massive clue that he's an undercover Blackfyre supporter!

Hmmmm, crackpot?

You lost me at the end there.. where does black come from? If we assume that you're right about everything before the last paragraph then wouldn't Varys be Va = Man, rys = fire, so Varys = Fireman or man of fire?

[DornishKnight]

Dragonfish, on 04 April 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

They're still fake tears, in the sense that they're artificially summoned and are intended to convey a false message. This means that the term "mummer's" doesn't just indicate possession, but fraudulence as well.

But they are still real drops of water summoned from the tearducts.  Just due to a false/nonexistent reason.

Again, Blackfyre.

Edited by DornishKnight, 04 April 2012 - 09:53 PM.

[Dragonfish]

DornishKnight, on 04 April 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

But they are still real drops of water summoned from the tearducts.  Just due to a false/nonexistent reason.

I think this is splitting hairs. The point is that the term "mummer's" may clearly be used to indicate fraudulence.

Quote

Again, Blackfyre.

Not sure what this means.

[Ivy Snow]

Jem, on 04 April 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

It is: Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark.

I think that bright means red, as in Targaryen and dark means black as in Blackfyre.

I also definitely think that false = Aegon.

Other than that, I don't really know how to interpret this list of dragons. Is he referring to six separate 'dragons': an old one, a young one, a true one, a false one, a bright one, a dark one. Or is combining characteristics? Because  Aegon could be a young, false, dark one.

Thank you for your response. Yes, that's how I understood it as well. The only candidate for being the fake dragon mentioned is Aegon.


Edit: typo

Edited by Ivy Snow, 04 April 2012 - 11:48 PM.

[DornishKnight]

Dragonfish, on 04 April 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

I think this is splitting hairs. The point is that the term "mummer's" may clearly be used to indicate fraudulence.



Not sure what this means.

The fraudulence could be anything, but not being Rhaegar's son would indeed be the most obvious.

It means that Aegon being a Blackfyre is the most obvious answer that fulfills the HotU prophecy.  Arguably the Blackfyres could be all considered "mummer's dragons".

I still will not rule out the possibility of the HotU prophecy to be utter bullshit.  It may just be a motivation that drives Dany into crazyland and screwing everybody over (like with the self-fulfilling Maggy the frog prophecy).

[The Butler of Tarth]

On the HotU visions: "Blue lips say only lies"

Having said that, I'm fairly certain that Aegon is a Blackfyre. I want him to be real even if I know he's probably not. (which - incidentally- is a mirror version of my thoughts on R+L=J, but I digress)

But.

Even if he is a fake  that doesn't mean anything because:
1. People have to find out.
2. People have to believe.
3. People have to care.

[Peach Fuzz]

You no what if Aegon is a blackfyre it wouldnt bother me tbh. Daemon blackfyre wernt an evil guy look at Mad king arys and Viserys. If he s a good ruler he shuld be allowed to sit the throne married to dany thus reconciling Black and red dragon and then put the realm to rights. I ve always thought of King Robert as the usurper

[Lady Hodor]

I think Varys wants Aegon for the throne, and has little interest in Dany.
He put out the word to have her assassinated in AGOT and ACOK.
Whereas he's helped keep Aegon secret for years and helped save him orginally.

[Silmarien]

TomBombadil, on 16 March 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

When I read the chapter I thought he was the real deal. Tyrion seems to know his stuff but after all the doubt on this forum I think he may be a fake.

Others probably pointed this out, but Tyrin IS skeptical.  After "Faegon" throws the cyvasse board on the floor and demands Tyrion pick up the pieces Tyrion thinks "Perhaps he is a Targaryen after all" (emphasis mine), then he advises him to NOT go to Daenerys but to make her come to Faegon in Westeros.

And later after he is captured he is amused that Faegon "took the bait".  This all leads me to believe Tyrion remained skeptical about the entire situation - he certainly does not trust Illyrio and the fact that everybody on that poleboat (mostly) is hiding an identity of some sort just makes it more fishy to him.  That's how I read it at least.

Edited by Silmarien, 05 April 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[red fork]

Ashen Shugar, on 04 April 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

You lost me at the end there.. where does black come from? If we assume that you're right about everything before the last paragraph then wouldn't Varys be Va = Man, rys = fire, so Varys = Fireman or man of fire?

You know what - I got a bit carried away there and made 2+2=5!

"man of fire" is the logical conclusion, not "man of black"!

So... could still mean he's a Blackfyre... or a R'hollorite?