14 replies to this topic

[Ser Justin Scummy]

I reread that chapter and I really got to thinking. Jon was leaving the wall and his post as Lord Commander. For the last two books he as been fighting againist Stannis about his vows and how he could not be Lord of Winterfell but now all of a sudden Stannis might be dead and Bolton hurts his feelings and he wants to get invloved it seems to me that he could have saved alot of time by just accepting stannis offer from the begining..

Any comments?

[ServantOnIce]

Jon like Queen Dany and King Robb just doesn't think everything through  . .  Jon believes everyone is dead save Sansa, who is in hiding after she is wanted for the murder of King Joffrey, now he hears Arya is alive, Jon has no choice but go and save Arya, his last relative, his Father's last honorable child from the torture of the Boltons.

Jon after Lord Eddard's execution rode off and had to be brought back to his senses, this is the same type of thing for him . . Jon is needed at the Wall, he is needed their and they need his leadership . ..

Jon again, wanted to honor his Father's old gods by staying at the Wall . . Jon also has the hots for Melisandre and I think she is developing the hots for him . . if he is alive, I could see him breaking his vows again with Melisandre . he just likes redheads ..

[James Arryn]

If you want a defensible rationale for why he suddenly felt ok to get involved, it can be found in Bolton's letter, where he specifically states that he  will attack (ie, the NW) if Jon doesn't comply.

[Jerritus]

ServantOnIce, on 17 March 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

. Jon also has the hots for Melisandre and I think she is developing the hots for him . . if he is alive, I could see him breaking his vows again with Melisandre . he just likes redheads ..

He is?

I figured Jon would be tapping Val's ass, not Melisandres...

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Jon didn't want to march to Winterfell to become Lord of Winterfell (Jon thinks Winterfell belongs to Sansa, since he doesn't know Bran and Rickon are still alive), he was answering Ramsay's direct threat to him and the Watch. The situations are quite different. Accepting Stannis offer would have mean also to forsake his Gods and burn the weirdwoods and Jon would never accept that.

ServantOnIce, on 17 March 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

Jon also has the hots for Melisandre and I think she is developing the hots for him . . if he is alive, I could see him breaking his vows again with Melisandre . he just likes redheads ..

We're definitely reading different books

[Lokii]

I think this topics been pretty well discussed, I just wanted to throw in that if I was on the wall I'd totally 'have the hots' for Melisandre. "Hey baby, you know, I'm azor ahai when the lights go out"

[Winter's Lady]

I don't really get why people think he has a thing for redheads. Sure, Ygritte was one, but she basically forced herself on him in the beginning. He has the hots for Val, more than for Melisandre(well, I think he has no hots whatsoever for her) and she's a blonde.

/derail.

[Prince Theon]

I don't believe he'd march south to reclaim Winterfell. He was intending to defend the foresake of his name and honor...

[Dolorous Eddie]

ServantOnIce, on 17 March 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

Jon also has the hots for Melisandre

This is just asking for a witty pun and for the life of me I can't find it.

On topic:

I love Jon so from an emotional perspective I think it would be nice to give him a happy ending. But if he took Winterfell over Bran, Rickon or the girls it would make him a bloody bastard (sorry, had to be done)!

From a literary point of view, I prefer him staying at the wall living with his choices and forever longing for home, the poor man. "Be troubled, and keep my vows".
After saving "Arya" and flaying that awful creature I shall not name, of course. Preferably after delivering a baddass "now you die" speech, cause I'm just tacky like that.

@ Lady of Oldcastle

As much as I would love some hot Val/Jon love, woman that I am, I don't think he really has the hots for her. He thinks she's gorgeous and awesome (let's face it, who wouldn't? Yay Val!) but I found in his POVs he always thinks of her in a very detached and cold manner.
And I do so hope GRRM would give her a POV! Or any of the wildlings, really.

Edited by Dolorous Eddie, 17 March 2012 - 02:10 PM.

[Ghost714]

Jon didnt go after Arya when he first heard about the marriage to Ramsey, so I don't think that is why he finally decides to march South, it might have something to do with it, but it's not the whole reason. I believe Jon had no choice, but to take the fight to Ramsey. Jon had to keep the Watch safe, so they could continue to hold the Wall against the Others, if you remember Ramsey did imply that he would kill the "crows" if Jon didn't give him what he wanted. Also Jon was protecting the people who had guest rights at the Wall, and was not about to hand Ramsey what he wanted.

So unlike when Jon first got the letter about "Arya" getting married to Ramsey, Jon really had no other choice but to take the fight to Ramsey, so it's not as random and irrational as some people might think. I mean honestly what choice did Jon have? How would it have been better to let Ramsey attack the Wall? All that would do is weakin the NW, who are needed to man the Wall. Also Jon would have a much better chance at beating Ramsey, if he takes the fight to Ramsey. There is no way that ramey would expect Jon to attack him, also Ramsey would not know how fast Jon could get to him, so Jon would have a good advantage there, because even if Ramsey expected an attack, he wouldn't have expected it so soon(had Jon actually marched South on Ramsey). Ramsey wouldn't know that Jon is attacking him with Wildlings, and Wildlings have pioneered the way of living for winter conditions, so Jon and his army would thrive much better than Ramsey could expect, and that includes traveling much faster in a snow storm then Ramsey could expect.

So yeah, Jon really had no choice, Jon couldn't give Ramsey what he wanted, even if Jon was okay with doing that, because Jon didn't have "Ramsey's Reek", nor "Ramsey's Bride".  
So Jon's decision to march against Ramsey was much more calculated and rational then people give him credit for. Especially if you consider that Jon was Probably planning to find Ramsey, when Ramsey was on his way to the Wall, wich in that case, Ramsey would have been screwed, because his army would be freezing, and Jon's army would feel like it's a nice warm day out in the sun. We know that Jon was looking for Mel, so Mel could find Ramsey, Most likely because Jon wanted to catch Ramsey with his pants down, while on his way to the Wall. I mean could you imagine? These Wildlings have been in the far North of the Frost Fangs, being on the Kings Road south of the Wall, they would fight circles around Ramsey's army, who would never have been so cold, especially the Freys. Especially if Jon kept the Wildlings in some form of disciplined ranks, which I believe they would do so, considering what they were fighting for. Then compare that to what Ramsey's army is fighting for, and you have the odds in Jon's favor. So I think it was a great plan that he had, to go South to fight Ramsey, and I hope we still get to see this happen(I doubt it though, because Stannis would beat Ramsey way before he could get to Jon... But the thing is, Jon didn't know anything like that, when he made his decision.. So we can't hold that against Jon, when we think about the choice he made).

[J_Crews]

Dolorous Eddie, on 17 March 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

I love Jon so from an emotional perspective I think it would be nice to give him a happy ending. But if he took Winterfell over Bran, Rickon or the girls it would make him a bloody bastard (sorry, had to be done)!

It bears mentioning that one of Robb's bannermen, I believe Lady Mormont, is currently carrying a document signed by Robb, legitimizing Jon and naming him his heir as the King in the North.  I assume she's chilling at Greywater Watch with good ol' Howland Reed.  Granted, this was written when Robb thought Bran and Rickon were dead, but if it was just a straight-up decree, one wonders if finding them alive would necessarily negate it.  Jon's claim, should he wish to pursue it (of course, he wouldn't), may now, legally, supersede all the others, depending on the exact wording of the decree.

Not that any of that matters; I was just trying to point-out that he wouldn't necessarily be seen as doing something that was outside his rights.

Edited by J.S. Crews, 26 April 2012 - 11:03 PM.

[Howling Mad]

Winter, on 17 March 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

I don't really get why people think he has a thing for redheads. Sure, Ygritte was one, but she basically forced herself on him in the beginning. He has the hots for Val, more than for Melisandre(well, I think he has no hots whatsoever for her) and she's a blonde.

/derail.

I believe Val is described as having hair the color of honey

[Apple Martini]

This is why a lot of people think something is kind of fishy about Jon choosing to act when he gets Ramsay's letter. He's put up with Stannis and Selyse being up his ass for a long time, but it's Ramsay who finally goads him into acting? I'm skeptical. Even so, I see the decision to be preemptively defending the Watch from Ramsay's attack and thus not a violation of his vows.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Jon's like Marty McFly.

Marty could be goaded into just about anything if somebody called him chicken enough.

With Jon, the magic word is bastard, which "Ramsay" called him about 83 times in that letter.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

There are numerous threads about Jon's last chapter in the ADwD section of the forum.

This is being closed accordingly.

[/MOD]