64 replies to this topic

[MGorgon]

Why not just let him die and say nothing? What reason did he have to give the bond villian speech at the end of book 5? Not that I'm complaining of course, that was one of the best/most riveting chapters of the book. Maybe he felt like he owed it to the man he just killed? If that's the case then Aegon must be real, because if you feel honor bound to say why you killed someone, why lie to them?

[James Arryn]

I happen to believe that Varys is only able to be honest with doomed people. Like 'I serve the Realm, my lord.' or this.

I think he actually is and sees himself an idealist/honorable in his own way, but absolutely knows that revealing that would serve him ill for many reasons, so he takes advantage of being able to reveal himself to men he sees as also idealistic or honorable...but only when that knowledge can no longer do him or his plans any harm.

Edited by James Arryn, 17 March 2012 - 11:27 PM.

[Francis Buck]

Varys would make an awesome James Bond villain.

[Apple Martini]

Varys didn't actually say that this Aegon coming was the real Aegon.

[Ser Justin Scummy]

Apple Martini, on 17 March 2012 - 11:31 PM, said:

Varys didn't actually say that this Aegon coming was the real Aegon.

true he did not say that Aegon was or was not smashed againist the wall he just said

"Aegon?"-Kevan-"Dead. He is dead."

"No."-varys-"He is here...." he goes on to talk about his upbringing but never says it is the Aegon from Rhaegar.

[James Arryn]

Alek Snow The Wild Wolf, on 17 March 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

true he did not say that Aegon was or was not smashed againist the wall he just said

"Aegon?"-Kevan-"Dead. He is dead."

"No."-varys-"He is here...." he goes on to talk about his upbringing but never says it is the Aegon from Rhaegar.

I do agree that misleading at that point...even by omission...would seem to be pretty pointless.

[brashcandy]

James Arryn, on 17 March 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

I do agree that misleading at that point...even by omission...would seem to be pretty pointless.

But it isn't pointless, at least not to Varys' mind I would imagine. What is important to Varys isn't that the real biological heir of Rhaegar Targaryen is back to claim the throne, but rather that there's a boy going by the name of Aegon, who has all the relevant qualities and upbringing to make a good king. So there really was no need for him to clarify anything to Kevan as for all intents and purposes, Aegon is the "real" king.

[James Arryn]

brashcandy, on 17 March 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

But it isn't pointless, at least not to Varys' mind I would imagine. What is important to Varys isn't that the real biological heir of Rhaegar Targaryen is back to claim the throne, but rather that there's a boy going by the name of Aegon, who has all the relevant qualities and upbringing to make a good king. So there really was no need for him to clarify anything to Kevan as for all intents and purposes, Aegon is the "real" king.

Yeah, I'd considered that kind of follow-it-though rationale, but to my mind it defies the whole confessional/concession to honor aspect of the conversation, and in that respect the point of saying anything at all.

[Apple Martini]

James Arryn, on 17 March 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

Yeah, I'd considered that kind of follow-it-though rationale, but to my mind it defies the whole confessional/concession to honor aspect of the conversation, and in that respect the point of saying anything at all.

Varys was not alone in the room with Kevan. He also seems to be doing what Littlefinger suggested to Sansa: Keep up the lie even when you have no real reason to do so.

[Ser Justin Scummy]

I truly believe that Varys is a Targ supporter and was more or less Gloating to Kevan a Lanister about Aegon

[James Arryn]

Apple Martini, on 17 March 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

Varys was not alone in the room with Kevan. He also seems to be doing what Littlefinger suggested to Sansa: Keep up the lie even when you have no real reason to do so.

But then why even speak?

[brashcandy]

James Arryn, on 17 March 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

Yeah, I'd considered that kind of follow-it-though rationale, but to my mind it defies the whole confessional/concession to honor aspect of the conversation, and in that respect the point of saying anything at all.

Not if you think that the point of Varys saying something wasn't to claim that Aegon was really alive, but rather to tout his kingmaking methods in creating an ideal leader. This is why IMO he states, "he is here" in response to Kevan's statement that Aegon is dead. Aegon really is there, so Varys didn't lie or omit the truth necessarily.

[Apple Martini]

James Arryn, on 17 March 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

But then why even speak?

One last eff you to Kevan? Who knows really. But the idea that if he spoke to Kevan at all he must be telling the truth isn't necessarily a given. Varys mentioned Aegon first, Kevan said, no he's dead and Varys said no, he's not. But they're probably not talking about the same Aegon.

[James Arryn]

I can see what you guys are saying, I just don't think it's the most logical explanation.

And I recognize that in Martinworld, that in no way makes it less viable/valid than my own.

Edited by James Arryn, 18 March 2012 - 12:00 AM.

[Apple Martini]

James Arryn, on 18 March 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

I can see what you guys are saying, I just don't think it's the most logical explanation.

And I recognize that in Martinworld, that in no way makes it less viable/valid than my own.

I agree that it's weird that he said anything at all and that it might just be a clunky plot device to convey information for some reason at the expense of logic within the scene, even though I think it could be said that Varys had some interest in spreading propaganda to the "little birds" who were present.

What I disagree with is the premise that whatever he said was the truth, just because he said something. And really, he did tell Kevan the truth. Kevan just didn't know that they were talking about two different Aegons.

Edited by Apple Martini, 18 March 2012 - 12:04 AM.

[Machinist]

what does it matter if its the real aegon as long as the realm (people) benefit, its clear that the noble born of westeros abuse and use the small folk. he says he works for the realm, the realm is the small folk not the lords or king. hes a mummer when he was speaking to kevin he could just simply be implying in his view that change was coming because aegon will balance the realm again. hes probably just using aegon's name and birthright to do this, if this is varys big plan though, im disappointed and wonder whats in it for him maybe he does work for the realm as he says who knows until the end. as varys says though.

“Power resides only where men believe it resides. [...] A shadow on the wall, yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.”

Edited by Machinist, 18 March 2012 - 12:10 AM.

[brashcandy]

Clunky plot device aside, if we examine what Varys is really lauding and concentrating on in that scene, it's nurture over nature, becoming great rather than being born great. Aegon has supposedly worked pretty hard at kingship, he hasn't taken it as a birthright, but as a challenge that must be met through sacrifice and study. If Varys had been speaking of the true Targ heir he wouldn't have had to emphasise all these other attributes, it would have been enough to claim that Aegon was back for his rightful throne.

[Net-Viper X]

I think Varys thought Kevan was a good man more or less and was remorseful for having to kill him, but it had to be done. He explained all that too him it seemed in hope that Kevan would at least understand why he was being killed, it was the only consulation Varys could offer under the circumstances.

[Queen Cersei I]

MGorgon, on 17 March 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Why not just let him die and say nothing? What reason did he have to give the bond villian speech at the end of book 5? Not that I'm complaining of course, that was one of the best/most riveting chapters of the book. Maybe he felt like he owed it to the man he just killed? If that's the case then Aegon must be real, because if you feel honor bound to say why you killed someone, why lie to them?

Personally, I saw Varys stopping to chat with Kevan to be mildly contrived, in the sense that the old trope of the villain stopping and explaining his intricately described wicked plan to the hero generally is. Of course, many people who are more intelligent than me had no issue with it, and I do admit that Varys attitude here was in character.

What  I don't really get is why he'd stand there talking to him, characterizing Kevan as a good man and whatnot. Even more inexplicable was his explaining what he did to Pycelle. IMO, that was something readers needed to know, so GRRM made it come out of Varys mouth, but Varys reasons for even bothering to mention this to Kevan are less than clear.

Overall it was necessary to have Varys reveal and explain himself for the sake of the plot. But honestly, I don't see why the sharp and efficient Varys (who himself claims he is not cruel and does not want to see innocent people suffer) would wound Kevan in a way that would allow him to live, then proceed to stand there and give Kevan an overview of his own motivations and general plans (i.e., why he is doing this) for several minutes as Kevan bleeds to death and the danger increases. And Varys is clearly able with a bow, why wouldn't he hit Kevan in a way that would kill him almost instantly? Why simply mortally injure him in a way that would take a long time to die, then spend several minutes talking to him, then dispatch his preteen killer spys on him? It sure made for an exciting and picturesque scene, but I'm honestly not sure where Varys is coming from with the sheer mechanics of the plan.

[Umberto]

Varys is a targ