127 replies to this topic

[The Dark Viper]

Hi,

I'm sure this topic has arrisen at some point over the past year or 2 but I have been yet to see it so I will ask here.

this is more of a question than a theory so...

We all know in aSoS Robb Stark, due to not having an heir and beliveing his brothers dead, proclaimed that he belives John Snow should succeed him and become a Stark and heir to Winterfell. He then went on to send Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover to Greywater Watch to give his plans to Howland Reed.

Assuming John is alive (seven save us) would this then mean if he was proclaimed a Stark he would no longer be bound to the Nights Watch as he took his vows as a Snow and he is now a Stark?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

The Dark Viper, on 18 March 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

Assuming John is alive (seven save us) would this then mean if he was proclaimed a Stark he would no longer be bound to the Nights Watch as he took his vows as a Snow and he is now a Stark?

I don't think it would. But dying would almost certainly free him from his vows, and when he is resurrected by Mel or whatever he will no longer be bound to the Night's Watch. I, personally, believe he will choose to remain in the Watch nonetheless.

[The Dark Viper]

True, never really thought about Mel resurrecting him to be fair. And yea I could see John wanting to stay...although I think if he did they would have his head.

[Dracarya]

'Jon', please, my dear friend, not 'John' my nitpicking really comes out on things like this!

Anywho, there was an interesting thread yesterday I believe, talking about how Jon took his vows believing he was a Stark's bastard, but if he was anything else, such as a legitimised bastard or a legitimate Targaryen, then the contract would not be valid. I'm not sure if this would work in Westeros, but either way I'm pretty sure Stannis would let Jon leave the NW if Robb declared him his heir. That said, I don't want Jon to leave the NW, freed from his vows or no.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Fire&Blood, on 18 March 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

Anywho, there was an interesting thread yesterday I believe, talking about how Jon took his vows believing he was a Stark's bastard, but if he was anything else, such as a legitimised bastard or a legitimate Targaryen, then the contract would not be valid. I'm not sure if this would work in Westeros, but either way I'm pretty sure Stannis would let Jon leave the NW if Robb declared him his heir. That said, I don't want Jon to leave the NW, freed from his vows or no.

I don't see how this would work, because Jon isn't really signing a contract, he's making an oath. He doesn't sign a piece of paper with the name Jon Snow or even say in his vows, I, Jon Snow, pledge my life and honor...he just says 'I' pledge my honor. So whether he is Jon Targaryen, Jon Stark, or Jon Snow, it's covered by 'I.'

Of course, that's just my opinion. Anyone know any Westerosi lawyers we can call up?

[The Dark Viper]

Fire&Blood, on 18 March 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

'Jon', please, my dear friend, not 'John' my nitpicking really comes out on things like this!

Sorry, my best friends name is John and i'm just used to it that way....my bad.

Most of the people seem to want JON ( ) to stay and I kind of do aswell, however I cant see the NW allowing this as he just decleared, in front of all of them, that he will be breaking his oath. The other part of me just wants to see him lead the widlings south and take care of the that bastard snow...but I can only dream.

Ill have to check that other post out now, cheers for the heads up

[Lykos]

Proclaiming him a Stark wouldn´t do the trick, but as Robb was King at that stage he might have also ordered to let Jon leave the NW.  So it´s the same as with Stannis, it´s up to Jon.

[Dracarya]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 18 March 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

I don't see how this would work, because Jon isn't really signing a contract, he's making an oath. He doesn't sign a piece of paper with the name Jon Snow or even say in his vows, I, Jon Snow, pledge my life and honor...he just says 'I' pledge my honor. So whether he is Jon Targaryen, Jon Stark, or Jon Snow, it's covered by 'I.'

Of course, that's just my opinion. Anyone know any Westerosi lawyers we can call up?

Sarky! I just found the idea interesting, I'd never looked at it that way. It's certainly an easy get-out-of-jail-free-card if Martin chooses. A bit lame, but easier than having him brought back to life or whatever. Personally I don't think he's dead, I think he'll survive his wounds and stay in the NW.. maybe after kicking some Ramsay arse

The Dark Viper, on 18 March 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

Sorry, my best friends name is John and i'm just used to it that way....my bad.

Most of the people seem to want JON ( ) to stay and I kind of do aswell, however I cant see the NW allowing this as he just decleared, in front of all of them, that he will be breaking his oath. The other part of me just wants to see him lead the widlings south and take care of the that bastard snow...but I can only dream.

Ill have to check that other post out now, cheers for the heads up

Sorry! I'm such a nitpicker.
I think the majority of the NW will want to help the north, and the wildlings would most likely want to sort Winterfell out, because of what Ramsay has apparently done to Mance and the spearwives - I assume they have husbands and children who would want to avenge them, and as thanks to Jon I think they'd help him out. Things do tend to go smoothly for our poor little bastard LC, so who knows.

Edited by Fire&Blood, 18 March 2012 - 12:01 PM.

[Patchface12]

I thought maybe Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover never made it to the neck, but were captured when sailing through Frey lands. If the Freys had them, it would be very bad for Stannis since both the Mormonts and Glovers are with him.

[The Dark Viper]

Patchface12, on 18 March 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

I thought maybe Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover never made it to the neck, but were captured when sailing through Frey lands. If the Freys had them, it would be very bad for Stannis since both the Mormonts and Glovers are with him.

according to the wiki "She (Maege) also holds Robb's declaration that names his successor." and both of their whereabouts are currently unknown but were last seen heading for the neck.

[Buried Treasure]

It's not even a given that Robb named Jon, as we neither get to read the document or know whether Cat read it. There's a pretty strong indication that Jon was named and most forum posters believe that is so but there is a very small minority (including me, obviously) that think GRRM was putting in some misdirection.

Also, the wiki is probably wrong about where the signed document is. Robb ordered Galbert Glover and Maege Mormont to go into the Neck and said they would be carrying false documents in case they were captured, so they would almost certainly not take the original will and probably not a copy either. A royal proclamation of succession is a really important document and would probably be kept in the safest possible place with the army - which at the time would have been amongst the king's baggage. So it was probably at the Twins and is possibly lying undiscovered or accidently destroyed.

The full document is not as important as knowing who was named heir. Robb ordered 5 people to sign it; the Greatjon, Jason Mallister, Edmure, Glover and Mormont. The first two are both prisoners - the Greatjon since the RW & Mallister since surrendering Seagard (although he might have been able to share his knowledge by Raven mail before becoming beseiged). Edmure is a prisoner but could have told the Blackfish. Glover and Mormont should have had the time to travel anywhere in Westeros between the RW and the end of ADwD so the fact we haven't seen them might mean they are scheming. Assuming Jon was named, they may have decided not to try reaching him because they heard about the Stark boys still being alive.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Buried Treasure, on 18 March 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

It's not even a given that Robb named Jon, as we neither get to read the document or know whether Cat read it. There's a pretty strong indication that Jon was named and most forum posters believe that is so but there is a very small minority (including me, obviously) that think GRRM was putting in some misdirection.

It might be like GRRM to misdirect us, but do you have any thoughts on who else Robb could possibly have named?

[protar]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 18 March 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

I don't think it would. But dying would almost certainly free him from his vows, and when he is resurrected by Mel or whatever he will no longer be bound to the Night's Watch. I, personally, believe he will choose to remain in the Watch nonetheless.

Who says there'll be a Watch by the time he's ressurected?

[A Free Shadow]

Lykos, on 18 March 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

Proclaiming him a Stark wouldn´t do the trick, but as Robb was King at that stage he might have also ordered to let Jon leave the NW.  So it´s the same as with Stannis, it´s up to Jon.

I imagine some harsh new lord commander still could send an assassin after him, because the NW  does not bow to any kings. And I would not even be in a position to blame him. Of course, that won't happen.   Hopefully.

[Arya Targaryen]

Jon made the oath in front of the weirwood tree, to the Old Gods. IMO either the Old Gods release him (but since they don't have septons, it's kind of tricky) or he dies. When a NW member dies, the Watch releases him, saying: "And now his watch ended".

No King has the right to release him from his vows. Stannis wanted to do it saying, the Old Gods are not real. If Jon accepted that (and burns the godswood in Winterfell and starts worshipping R'hllor), that would do the trick, I think. But cleary Jon won't do that.
I don't know how the Old Gods could possibly release him. So his only chance is if the other NW members say "his watch ended". Which they will, either if he is dead (and later resurrected) or they just think he is dead. Those words do matter (just like the words of the oath). If they say it, his watch clearly ended, even if afterwards he turns out to be alive. I think this is the way the NW can release someone (and probably Robb wanted to do something similar: he wanted the NW to declare Jon's watch has ended, and in turn he sends a 100 men.

As to whether he will stay there: I don't think so. By now he must have realised that the Watch alone won't stand against the Others. And Stannis made an excellent point: the North will more likely accept a son of Ned than him. I don't think Jon ever doubted that. He could bring the North together, especially now, with his wildling army, against the Boltons.  He realizes how important that would be. But he never wanted to break his vows. But if he is legally released? I don't think he will stay as a NW member. But he will do anything to help them, like a Stark in Winterfell should do. He doesn't have to be a sworn brother to fight the Others.

Tricky question: Is Mance released from his vows now? When "he" got burnt, Jon said the words. Is is valid now? Because from now on, it would mean he is not a deserter, he got released legally.

[ManyFacedOne]

Arya Targaryen, on 18 March 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

So his only chance is if the other NW members say "his watch ended". Which they will, either if he is dead (and later resurrected) or they just think he is dead. Those words do matter (just like the words of the oath). If they say it, his watch clearly ended, even if afterwards he turns out to be alive.

I don't buy this at all. If he's alive, no matter what's said, his oath is still binding. Death is what releases them from their vows, not some words.

Quote

Tricky question: Is Mance released from his vows now? When "he" got burnt, Jon said the words. Is is valid now? Because from now on, it would mean he is not a deserter, he got released legally.

Nope. He's a deserter. According to the NW, he should die.

[Howling Mad]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 18 March 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

It might be like GRRM to misdirect us, but do you have any thoughts on who else Robb could possibly have named?

One theroy is that Rob disinherits Sansa since she is a prisoner of the Lannisters and needs to prevent a forced marriage that results in the loss of Winterfell to a non-Stark.  Likely heirs at the time of the will: Jon Snow, BenJen Stark, any surviving Stark, perhaps the Blackfish as regent/protector until a Stark heir can be found.

[ManyFacedOne]

I thought it was pretty obvious that he named Jon. He's not going to let Tyrion have a claim, so that leaves out Sansa; he thinks Arya, Bran and Rickon are dead, thinks Benjen is missing. That leaves Jon as his only possible heir.

[Ser Wun Wun]

I don't think GRRM is going to give Jon an "easy out" regarding his vows.  When he comes back to life people are not going to say "oh, your watch ended so you're free to go do your own thing now."  And I doubt the entire NW will be destroyed either.  Most likely Jon is going to have to make one of those hard choices this series is famous for, where he is damned no matter what he does really.

He can stay in the Watch and keep his honor, or he can claim a throne and put together an army that is actually capable of defending the realm from the Others.  Of course a lot of people won't understand that he is trying to do the right thing by doing the latter, so they will call him turncloak, bastard and oathbreaker behind his back.  They are already doing this because he helped the Wildlings actually, so I think he is already sort of on the path to sacrificing his honor for the sake of the realm.

[Buried Treasure]

d/p

Edited by Buried Treasure, 18 March 2012 - 05:17 PM.