127 replies to this topic

[Eddward Stark]

Dragonfish, on 17 April 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

There's no evidence that this is true. Robb doesn't cite his authority as king when he says he wants to free Jon from his vows, he simply says that if he sends the watch a hundred men in exchange for Jon, then they'll find a way to release him.

Thanks for the clarification.  Maybe I confused that with a king being able to make a bastard no longer a bastard.  However, I still see the execution of Robb's will being a far more legitimate reason for Jon to leave the Wall than claiming that Jon "died" for a bit, which is really just a technicality. I bet that Jon's done the wildlings enough good that 100 of them would volunteer to join the Watch in exchange for Jon's relief, if it came to it.

[Targ the Warg]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 18 March 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

I don't see how this would work, because Jon isn't really signing a contract, he's making an oath. He doesn't sign a piece of paper with the name Jon Snow or even say in his vows, I, Jon Snow, pledge my life and honor...he just says 'I' pledge my honor. So whether he is Jon Targaryen, Jon Stark, or Jon Snow, it's covered by 'I.'

Of course, that's just my opinion. Anyone know any Westerosi lawyers we can call up?

I have wondered this myself. I think, though, I case could be made that if Jon had all the information he would not have chosen to join the NW. Assuming R+L=J and Jon doesn't know his lineage, he essentially signed up under false pretenses. This is also what makes me think Ned never really intended to tell Jon his real parentage, becuase otherwise would he have let Jon join the NW without knowing the truth only to tell him years later? That seems kind of cruel.

[Targ the Warg]

Eddward Stark, on 17 April 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

Thanks for the clarification.  Maybe I confused that with a king being able to make a bastard no longer a bastard.  However, I still see the execution of Robb's will being a far more legitimate reason for Jon to leave the Wall than claiming that Jon "died" for a bit, which is really just a technicality. I bet that Jon's done the wildlings enough good that 100 of them would volunteer to join the Watch in exchange for Jon's relief, if it came to it.

Who has the authority to release someone, though? The NW isn't subjected to any king so even if Stannis said Jon was free, that doesn't mean the NW would respect that. Maybe the Lord Commander would have the authority to release someone, but what happens when it is the LC who they'd want to free? I suppose an exchange of men or a bribe to the NW in return for not pursuing Jon may suffice. Maybe Jon's death leading to his release from the NW would be kind of lame, but I think that's the purpose his potential death would serve.

[King Doug]

MrsJonSnow, on 19 April 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Who has the authority to release someone, though? The NW isn't subjected to any king so even if Stannis said Jon was free, that doesn't mean the NW would respect that. Maybe the Lord Commander would have the authority to release someone, but what happens when it is the LC who they'd want to free? I suppose an exchange of men or a bribe to the NW in return for not pursuing Jon may suffice. Maybe Jon's death leading to his release from the NW would be kind of lame, but I think that's the purpose his potential death would serve.

That is the problem that Robb Stark was struck with when he wanted to name Jon heir. A simple exchange of men may have worked when offered to the NW, but that was before he became LC. But really it comes down to the oath that you made. It is a sense of honor and duty, internally for some people like Jon. Others in the NW only hold to their vows for fear of the punishment. But if the enforcers of the oath want you out of the NW, then the NW doesn't really have any power to hold them since they were always reliant upon the Northern Lords to enforce.
In Jon's case, it will likely be an internal conflict.

[Orrin Storm]

Ser Wun Wun, on 18 March 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

He can stay in the Watch and keep his honor, or he can claim a throne and put together an army that is actually capable of defending the realm from the Others.  Of course a lot of people won't understand that he is trying to do the right thing by doing the latter, so they will call him turncloak, bastard and oathbreaker behind his back.  They are already doing this because he helped the Wildlings actually, so I think he is already sort of on the path to sacrificing his honor for the sake of the realm.

I like this.

It would make sense that Jon would get the chance to sacrifice his honor to actually mean something since honor and its worth is almost a theme of ASOIAF. Ned kept it til he wanted to spare his family his death then Joffery killed him. Robb broke his promise to the Freys to honor Jeyne Westerling. etc...

It'll be interesting to see if Jon would abandon the Night's Watch in order to save the realm, and what he'd do afterward (assuming he survives). Would he let them take him down for deserting after the fight or would they just not care after a battle that huge...

I think his only his resurrection by R'hllor would free him from his oath to the Old Gods, but I don't think that would go over well with Ghost or even him. Jon would probably hate owing the Red God.

If he doesn't die and goes into acoma and then comes out I think the Night's Watch would exile him. I don't imagine you let your assassination attempt fail, and keep around the Lord Commander you tried to down.

[The Snowman]

I believe Jon will survive the assassination attack whether by some help from Mel or just stays alive the normal way.He was going to go south the re-claim Winterfell and rally the North to his cause. By that I mean rallying support to fight the Others rather than becoming Lord of Winterfell or KitN. If he does survive I believe he will be in line to do some pretty great things.

Just on the assassination attempt on JSnow, It seemed pretty desperate and not at all clinical. Especially with the Wildings who are mostly with Jon and not to mention a fair chunk of the Watch have seen what a good leader he is. It seems like a small group who are responsible not a very well thought out coup.

Also i really wouldn't want to piss off Ghost, which would be a bad move if you valued your life haha

[Dragonguard]

Arya Targaryen, on 18 March 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

Jon made the oath in front of the weirwood tree, to the Old Gods. IMO either the Old Gods release him (but since they don't have septons, it's kind of tricky) or he dies. When a NW member dies, the Watch releases him, saying: "And now his watch ended".
I don't know how the Old Gods could possibly release him.

Bran through the weirwoods? lol

JimZipCode, on 14 April 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

Why doesn't Jon = Ice and Dany = fire?  Isn't that just as plausible -- more plausible, even obvious, since they've been featured in all the books?  L & R are dead ~14 years before the start of the series.  They're not even characters in the books, they only appear in the memories of other characters.  The series is certainly not a song of them.  If L = ice and  R = fire, that's just an echo of the motif.  Jon & Dany are far, far more important to the narrative than they are.
(Jon & Dany actually, y'know, appear in the narrative, as L & R do not.)

Cos if L+R=J then if L=Ice and R=Fire then J=Ice and Fire
A song of Ice and Fire - Lyanna and Rhaegar are 2 of the few characters from the past who keep getting brought up in relation to being the cause of the leadup to the act that triggers of the war of the usurper and leads to the events of the 'present'  - like a haunting song of the past!
Rhaegar even says 'his is the song of ice and fire' he mentions aegon here but he could have made a mistake after all he thought he himself was the ptwp at one time...
Anyway thats how i see it...

Edited by Dragonguard, 19 October 2012 - 07:29 PM.

[Dragonguard]

Black Wind, on 19 March 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

You got me there! I always believed in the theory that Maege Mormont and Galbert Glover took the will with them to the Neck. But you are absolutely right – they were sent to deliver some messages to the Northern Lords and carry only some fake documents - possibly battle commands - because Robb fears they might be caught. If Robb thought his envoys might not make it to the North, he wouldn't entrust them with his will. So the question is – did Robb give the will to somebody else? And if he kept it and took it to the Twins – where is the will now? Did the Freys and Roose find it? And if they did – might there be yet another reason for Jon's daggers in the dark?

I think he may have given it to Jason Mallister to look after until he had sorted things in the North - Robb was intending to return after all and it may not have been needed, also better to give it to someone not about to go into hostile territory (Maege and Galbart) or heading to battle 'after the wedding' (was the plan anyway - Robb and most others) yet he sent Jason to arrange ships and escorts for MM and GG so why not give him the will and say hide it - in that case its either hidden in occupied Seagard or already been sent somewhere via messenger or raven... (maybe some bias here and im probs wrong lol but who else could he entrust it too? what do other people think?)